14 New ColecoVision Games at Classic Gaming Expo

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

That "fat" comparission thingy is not nonsense, if you can't "get" that I fear there's no hope.

 

I can get that "fat" example as is. I just don't see it as a valid comparission.

 

I wouldn't tell someone fat that he is fat, because I'd assume he is already pretty aware of the condition his body is in. And I don't care about other peoples bodies conditions. As long as they don't ask me something like "How do I look" it's none of my business.

 

Being a homebrewer myself, the "homebrew scene" on the other side is something that concerns me.

 

It is a very fragile thing, depending much on trust. Someone buying an excellent homebrew wil probably do that again. Someone buying a crappy release has learned another lesson.

 

So there's a certain responsibility for someone releasing a homebrew.

 

On many occassions I critisized other releases before, be it for being rushed, crap, cash-cowing, ripping-off or being a danger to this scene in other respects - in my point of view. I pointed out such things before and will do so again.

 

If this was a taboo, I did break it many times before. Use a search engine and look up topics like the "Cuttle Cart", "Vault Assault", "Skeleton", "Boxed Hacks" and others.

 

If I have some concerns about some things, I try to discuss them. If it is clumsy, tactless, direct, or else that's agreeably my fault then. But I'm never attacking someone personally and it's normally with the best intentions for the scene as a whole.

 

There's issues where I was wrong, like with my concerns about the Cuttle Cart, but then it was only after all these discussions that I realized that.

 

Now back to real issue. There was some easy ways to turn this into a really cool project. Why not simply add Dacman to the cartridge as well, there you go - one killer title with 14 Bonus games. Value for money. Voila, case closed.

 

The other idea I started with, the reverse-marketing, would also be cool, I think. Even though I fear some people would never get the joke.

 

Whatever. If you don't like what I'm saying, use the ignore button, it works.

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Snider-man]

Ok, I'll translate for you Manuel:

What you did/said was the same as walking up to an overweight gentleman and saying, "You're fat. Lose weight."

"This is a subpar effort and should be called "crap."

 

No woman is ever going to want to be with you and you'll die soon.

"I know *I* would never buy this crap. But take heart, lots of crappy games sell. Name it "Don't Buy This. "

 

Why are you so mad at me? I'm being honest here. You KNOW you're a fat, fat-so, fattypants, right?

"Why are you all attacking me? I'm just being honest."

 

Oh yeah, let's add this ---> <---There, that makes it better.

 

Pretty much taken verbatim.

 

I've officially had it with your seeming cluelessness to the feelings of others. You are either truly that dense or you really just don't give a damn. Either way, I'm done with this conversation.

 

+++++++++++

 

EDIT: I'm gonna try this one final time. Manuel, you claim that you were offerring "constructive criticism." Bullshit. The only thing you said in your initial post was that this effort was "crap." No critique of the gameplay. No suggestions as to what may have improved it in your eyes. You came right out and said "This is shit." And then, rather than explain what you meant when people called you on it, you chose to defend what you said - which is that Dan's game is "crap." Oh, you suggested that it could be called "Don't Buy This" and a bunch of other similarly stupid, rude names. But constructive advice? My ass.

 

NOW I'm done. I'm not looking for an apology to Dan or for you to suddenly start waxing poetic about "what a fine game this truly is." I'm just PRAYING that you finally see why everyone is so up in arms by what you posted.

[Marco]

Tim,

 

Have you read this statement from Manuel:

 

If I have some concerns about some things, I try to discuss them. If it is clumsy, tactless, direct, or else that's agreeably my fault then. But I'm never attacking someone personally and it's normally with the best intentions for the scene as a whole.

 

I guess he is not denying he was being tactless, though I think an apology to the homebrewer would be appropriate. I would be interested in hearing other people's opinion on the issue Manuel raised though, as he may have a valid point, or not.

 

Cheers,

Marco

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

I've officially had it with your seeming cluelessness to the feelings of others. You are either truly that dense or you really just don't give a damn. Either way, I'm done with this conversation.

 

I'm in fact clueless about Daniels feelings at the moment. Unlike your empathic powers mine do not reach France.

 

But I know perfectly well how it is being publically critizised for things I've done wrong. Try a search about "Boycott Gunfight".

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Wow, it's getting pretty hot in here, isn't it?

 

Ok, here are my two cents:

- tact is good, but sometimes it's better to be honest (and sometimes I am!)

- I don't know if Daniel's CV games are "substandard" or not, but if they are, why should we not allowed to talk about that?

- I remember collectors complaining about the package quality of really good homebrews (and IMO they had the right to do that), so why shouldn't Manuel complain about the content?

- probably my programmer/players view is different from a collectors view, but I prefer quality content about a quality package

[Snider-man]

Then e-mail Dan privately and voice your questions and concerns off-line. Calling his work "crap" in a public forum, without him being around to defend himself, is rude.

 

Would you rather have someone e-mail you and tell you what they thought of a game you're producing, or would you rather that individual call your work "crap" on a public message board (and one you don't visit very often, as Dan is rarely here)?

 

"I wish you had taken some time to develop these games more fully or add a game like Dacman" is a critique.

 

"This is crap." is NOT.

[Inky]

I can't believe I'm chiming in on this.

 

In a nutshell, I don't think it's appropriate to call it 'crap' until you've played it or tested it out.

[Snider-man]

I can't believe I'm chiming in on this.

I can't believe this even happened. And I have no idea why I've become the public defender in this issue. Has anyone pointed Dan to this thread so he can chime in/know what's been said?

[moycon]

Based on the responses to the thread so far, I'm guessing this is mostly cultural differences.

 

I'll leave it at that.

[Marco]

Hey people,

 

Please don't blow up the differences. Making this into another USA vs Europe thing isn't going to help much, I'm afraid (and btw, we usually think that Americans are the ones with the big mouth :wink:

 

I think everybody agrees that being rude is not the way to treat someone who makes a contribution like this to the hobby. I'm sure Manuel would have no problem apologizing to the programmer if he feels hurt by these statements, which I can very much imagine being the case.

 

I think it's clear also that Manuel's tactic to get his concern about the quality of homebrew games discussed on this board has so far completely failed. Perhaps it's best to let this discussion rest for now, and discuss it at some other time.

 

Cheers,

Marco

[Snider-man]

we usually think that Americans are the ones with the big mouth  :wink:

Truth be told, we Americans think we're the big-mouthed ones too.

 

Perhaps it's best to let this discussion rest for now, and discuss it at some other time.

Fair enough. Though I'm still stunned by what transpired here. But the subject is dropped for now.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Then e-mail Dan privately and voice your questions and concerns off-line.

Yes, that's what I would do normally, but now it's probably too late for that, since the games are already produced. So this release is beyond the quality control stage and my email won't change anything.

 

Would you rather have someone e-mail you and tell you what they thought of a game you're producing, or would you rather that individual call your work "crap" on a public message board (and one you don't visit very often, as Dan is rarely here)?

Problem is, that Dan already decided to release the games. When I'd go public with a final release of a "crap" game (I won't, guess how many unfinshed, abandoned project I have!) I deserved any flag about that.

 

"I wish you had taken some time to develop these games more fully or add a game like Dacman" is a critique.

 

"This is crap." is NOT.

Well both are, but only the first one is constructive. But again, constructive critique only works if it's not too late.

 

IMO the major point of Manuel's critique is, that (just like me!) he is there for quality, not quantity. I watched the progress of his coming new game Star Fire from the beginning and I know how much effort (including major redesigns etc.) went into that. He could easily have done five "crap" games in the same time, so for him as a programmer with a self-imposed high quality standard its probably just very frustrating to see critqueless enthusiatic reactions whenever a weak or rushed game is released to the public. That may sound arogant, but I can understand that very well.

 

Think about this:

The customers decide what they get. The level of quality that satisfies them defines the level of what they will get in the end.

[Snider-man]

I rewrote this response to Thomas' post above 5 times before I decided to drop it completely. I promised Marco I would, and I expect everyone else to do the same. I'll reply as follows:

 

[moycon]

The customers decide what they get. The level of quality that satisfies them defines the level of what they will get in the end.

 

So why play quality control police?? Why do you have to contact anybody?

Going forward will you personaly decide for everyone what's acceptable?

If you dont like something, Or think a product is sub-par... Choose not to purchase. And so what? If the game isn't very good, people will hear about it soon enough. And the people that did purchase it will have learned a valuable lesson. What does all that have to do with insulting and saying rude things about someones work???

 

And yeah Marco..I know that's usually how it goes ..what with us rude Americans and all. One time a french girl called me an American Pig!!! LOL She's one of my best friends now. OhhhLala

 

There is a 5th dimension.....

[Snider-man]

I rewrote this response to Thomas' post above 5 times before I decided to drop it completely. I promised Marco I would, and I expect everyone else to do the same. I'll reply as follows:

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I rewrote this response to Thomas' post above 5 times before I decided to drop it completely. I promised Marco I would, and I expect everyone else to do the same. I'll  reply as follows:

 

I can see no reason why we should not discuss this in public (do we really need to censor ourself when it gets controversial?), but I would like to know your arguments too. So email them to me, please.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Going forward will you personaly decide for everyone what's acceptable?

No, don't get me wrong, I am not the one who "decides for everyone" what is good or bad. Everybody does that for himself. But if it's only allowed to praise something but not to critisize it, it's getting quite hard to decide for myself without having to buy it first.

 

What does all that have to do with insulting and saying rude things about someones work???      

To be 100% honest: because "crap" may also harm my very own work. IMO you can compare that with one of the reasons for the video game crash of the eighties.

 

A market getting flooded with substandard products will either collapse or getting substandard completely.

[Snider-man]

It's simple Thomas. This is the attitude that - to me - is prevalent throughout this entire thread:

 

"Remember kids! If it's not Xype-approved, it's crap!"

 

Read back over the entire thread and tell me that the statements posted by you and Manuel don't seem the least bit pompous and arrogant. *Everyone* else has been saying that the comments made were rude. But you and he just keep defending these remarks, saying that Dan should know better than to release a substandard product. By whose reckonning? Yours? Manuel's? The public's?

 

It seems like, if you or he do not approve of a homebrew, then it is contemptuous in your eyes. Subject to ridicule. "Crap." I can't understand how you can not see that you're both coming across as incredibly pompous! Please, I know that this is not your intent, but this attitude must be checked! I know you two are very prolific with the programming, but your comments make it sound like your approval is *required* before any product is released.

 

That's my concern - that two of the main representives of the homebrew community - of Xype itself - are for all purposes appearring as some kind of Homebrew Approval Committee.

[christianscott]

one of my mentors explained negative comments to me, i've learned to look at them differently ever since. i'm a chef in a french hotel, that alone gives people very high expectations about our menu. chefs by nature have big fragile egos yet our bosses feel the need to leave guest comment cards on every table. every month we get a big stack of them 80% are positive, heaping praise on our efforts- we throw those in the trash. the ones we keep and share are the negative ones, the ones that make us wince also make us think. most people follow the "if you cant say anything nice..." rule to such an extreme that they have nothing constructive to say. i've learned a lot from these angry guests, you have to figure that every critic who voiced their opinion there are 4 other guests who felt the same way but didnt bother to say it.

 

how does that relate to this? i'm just saying that honest criticism helps improve standards. although i am a bit confused about how you can pan something before you try it...?

[Snider-man]

i am a bit confused about how you can pan something before you try it...?

I am confused about the location of the "heaps of praise" the "criticism" was designed to counter.

 

French chef, eh? I never would've guessed. Of course, one of my best friends is a burly oil-covered auto mechanic - with a catering service on the side. Go fig.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

It's simple Thomas. This is the attitude that - to me - is prevalent throughout this entire thread:

 

"Remember kids! If it's not Xype-approved, it's crap!"

I knew this argument was coming!

 

My simple answer is: That argument is crap!

 

And I won't defend XYPE here because I can see no reason why XYPE needs to be defended.

 

Read back over the entire thread and tell me that the statements posted by you and Manuel don't seem the least bit pompous and arrogant.

Sure, I used the word arrogant myself. If it's arrogant to have a self-imposed different quality standard, then I can live with that. I won't lower my standards, and I will always defend everybody who helps keeping them up.

 

*Everyone* else has been saying that the comments made were rude. But you and he just keep defending these remarks, saying that Dan should know better than to release a substandard product. By whose reckonning? Yours? Manuel's? The public's?

Well, first let me repeat:

"I do NOT know if Dan's games are substandard or no."

I never said Dan's games are crap, I only defended Manuel's right to critisize them.

 

If I critisize anything, then I do that from my very own subjective perspective. If I say this game (song, film etc.) is "crap" (or way below my own standards) than that's my opinion. Nobody needs to share that opinion, but I have the right and (IMO more important) sometimes the obligation to say that. Especially if I would expect negative general consequences when not doing so.

 

It seems like, if you or he do not approve of a homebrew, then it is contemptuous in your eyes. Subject to ridicule. "Crap."

There is a huge difference between crap and something really good, but not outstanding. And even if I love a game others may not like it. Like every opinion it's all subjective.

 

I can't understand how you can not see that you're both coming across as incredibly pompous!

I know that whenever I critisize another ones game I am risking this. So what should I do? Shut up? No, I won't censor myself if I think it's important to share my opinion.

 

That's my concern - that two of the main representives of the homebrew community - of Xype itself - are for all purposes appearring as some kind of Homebrew Approval Committee.

I see your point very well and XYPE has been critisized for that during the past. Yes, we (and that is not only Manuel and me) are some kind of "Homebrew Approval Committee", but only for our personal taste and standards. I can see nothing wrong here and if people want to trust our selection (like they trust other selections in the non-Atari life) they can if that helps them, but they don't have to. There are plenty of non-XYPE homebrew games on the market that are IMO good and fun to play which just didn't make it into XYPE because I couldn't agree with other XYPE members (and vice versa). So if a game is Non-XYPE that doesn't mean it's bad or worse than any XYPE game. But if a game is XYPE you can be quite sure that it is not too bad. That's all!

[Vic George 2K3]

It's like this, Manuel. What you did/said was the same as walking up to an overweight gentleman and saying, "You're fat. Lose weight. No woman is ever going to want to be with you and you'll die soon. Why are you so mad at me? I'm being honest here. You KNOW you're a fat, fat-so, fattypants, right?"

 

Pardon the digression from the topic, but it seems more women would take issue with their overweightness being so pronounced (and more men would take issue with a woman being overweight) despite how much overweight they may seem to themselves or others -- hence the problems they have with anorexia and bulimia. A man being overweight hardly raises an eyebrow, since it seems men are more conditioned to be bigger in whatever sense society deems them to be big and women are conditioned to be slim, pretty, and attractive.

 

But enough of that. Manuel may be entitled to his opinion about this game cartridge being nothing more than a collection of "crap games", but are those games really "crap"? Granted, they do look like commonplace gameware one would find selling in $10 PC game racks, but I don't see this as being similar to the gameware being pumped up and hyped up over the years that never really lived up to the hype, but used such to sell what was really an inferior effort. Not something I would buy, but definitely not something I would shun other people from buying.

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

Manuel may be entitled to his opinion about this game cartridge being nothing more than a collection of "crap games", but are those games really "crap"?

 

Attached are 10 out of 14. They run fine in MESS.

(To prevent any further bashing of me - "MESS" is only the name of the emulator. And the binaries are available for free download from Daniels homepage.)

 

Greetings,

Manuel

gamepack.zip

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

"Remember kids! If it's not Xype-approved, it's crap!"

I knew this argument was coming!

 

An opportunity too good to let it pass

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[Mister VCS]

I think the problem is the german mentality to see things negative.

For example, the Eurocon in Karlsruhe/Germany is limited to 30 people

because "more people would probably break the spirit" (look at International board)

Most Americans would say that everybody is invited to join a classic gaming

con, because we all like the classic games.

 

Mister VCS