Side2 Cartridge and Basic XE?

[ebiguy]

Is there somewhere the documentation for the Basic XE toolkit, explaining what features or API does BASICXE.OSS file add to Basic XE ?

I can not find one when I search on Internet or in this forum.

 

EDIT: I answer my own question: I guess there is no dedicated manual as there is a paragraph in the Basic XE manual saying that, without the BASICXE.OSS file, these commands are not available:

BSAVE, CALL, DEL, EXIT, FAST, LOCAL, LVAR, MOVE, PROCEDURE, RENUM, RGET, RPUT, SORTUP, SORTDOWN, the fast math routines, and all P/M commands except HITCLR.

Edited October 6, 2019 by ebiguy
found the answer by reading Basic XE manual

[Scatter]

On 9/29/2019 at 11:24 PM, Scatter said:

Ah. Clearly I should have read the description a little more closely. That is really exciting. Thanks FJC. 

Looking at the readme.txt in the archive I see two files:

side2_full_oss_carts.atr   Full 512K ROM with SDX, loader, OSS carts, with UFLASH and SIDE DLT flasher
side2_full.atr                   Full 512K ROM with SDX, loader, OSS carts, with UFLASH and SIDE DLT flasher
 

Both files have exactly the same description. I assume there is a difference between the two?  If I was to guess, I would say that one contains the OSS carts while the other does not and that the description on one is wrong, but maybe I am missing something?

[flashjazzcat]

No, I think a typo is the.most reasonable explanation.

[Scatter]

I managed to get the system loaded onto the SIDE2 cart using the side2_full_oss_carts.atr file, and I have to say that it is AWESOME.  A big thanks to ebiguy and FJC for making this available.

 

I am new to the whole SIDE2 world and I didn't quite understand how it all would work once flashed so I had some trouble getting it to work due to some misunderstandings that are certainly my own fault.  I had expected the boot menu containing the OSS carts to appear when I booted, but that simply did not happen.  Instead it booted to SDX and I couldn't figure out how to get to that menu and boot into the ACTION! cart. 

 

It turns out that you have to run the SIDECFG file included in the archive which presents the list of OSS carts and you select between BASIC XL, ACTION!, etc.  That seemed really promising, but when I rebooted, I still ended up at the SDX menu.  Eventually, I figured out that all I needed to do was type "CAR" and I was dumped into ACTION!.  Simple and elegant and works exactly as though you had the ACTION! cart in the cartridge slot and with SIDE2, DOS operations are almost instantaneous which is a real improvement over the SDrive-Max that I was using before.  

[Jeffrey Worley]

On 9/10/2019 at 5:31 PM, Faicuai said:

 

Please, be aware that BasicXE will FAIL when loaded from SIDE 1/2 in multi-cart mode, on either Ultimate or Incognito setups. Even more so when loading BasicXE extensions, which is the ONLY reason for using BasicXE over BasicXL, as it enables the "FAST" directive.

 

In the meantime, it seems that BasicXL is working for the most part, but I have not tested it enough to ensure that it is bullet-proof, on the above configs.

 

YMMV, though...

I have been running BXL on my U1MB 800xl under Atari os and the Mux! OS (Mostly on the MUX OS), for several months continuously, under the most arduous of conditions:  Spartados X32g with Moe (Ansi27), and Carina II (2.7) running Cheeze Daddy's House of Funk BBS (Telnet Atari8.us port 10001).  The board runs flawlessly in Basic XL with the Side2 for hard disk access in conjunction with the U1MB.  It WOULD run without the U1MB, but Moe is a picky critter.  You can pretty much put concerns about BXL and the Side to bed.  I have not tried BXE, but will give it a go.  Don't think I need the extensions to test it.  The extensions were always a bit superfluous to me anyway.  Kenny Sallot used them strenuously in his Moe-based TDXE BBS software.  I never did, mostly just using BXE as a BXL replacement.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

[ebiguy]

I prepared a new version of Basic XE which is now compatible with BASICXE.OSS under SIDE2 (I hope so...).

I ran the 2 samples from the Extension Disk and they are working but I guess it is not enough to say that it is OK.

So I would like to get a few guys involved in the test.

I would prefer people having specific Basic XE applications that uses features from BASICXE.OSS of course !

If you think you can help, please, PM me and I will give you a package for the test.

The final version will be on FJC's web site.

[flashjazzcat]

This is excellent news. Sorry I haven't replied to your email yet but I had no time yesterday. I will test and provide feedback today.  Many thanks!

 

This is great timing, too, since I spent much of yesterday morning preparing the v.3.03 firmware update for release, and will hopefully finish that today.

[Gunstar]

Will this  apply to Incognito with the SiDE loader as well? Thanks ebiguy and FJC for your work on it all.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

2 hours ago, ebiguy said:

I prepared a new version of Basic XE which is now compatible with BASICXE.OSS under SIDE2 (I hope so...).

I ran the 2 samples from the Extension Disk and they are working but I guess it is not enough to say that it is OK.

So I would like to get a few guys involved in the test.

I would prefer people having specific Basic XE applications that uses features from BASICXE.OSS of course !

If you think you can help, please, PM me and I will give you a package for the test.

The final version will be on FJC's web site.

What is different about this version? Or are you waiting to disclose until after testers have confirmed it to be fully working and you release it to the full community?

Edited October 20, 2019 by Gunstar

[ebiguy]

31 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Will this  apply to Incognito with the SiDE loader as well? Thanks ebiguy and FJC for your work on it all.

I did not included yet the fix from Faicuai in order to work with Incognito.

 

27 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

What is different about this version? Or are you waiting to disclose until after testers have confirmed it to be fully working and you release it to the full community?

The package on FJC's web site contains the 4 OSS languages with bank switching adapted for SIDE2 cartridge so that they work either under SDX or without SDX.

But the Basic XE extension was crashing when loading.

This new version fixes the extension crash so that Basic XE gracefully works along with its extension.

And I am also looking at Basic XL extension.

 

I don't want to post beta versions here that people would get several month later without knowing if it is the latest version or if there were some bugs.

I prefer giving in private a beta version to testers and, when they say that they it seems to work, the new package will be available on FJC's web site to the full community.

 

[Gunstar]

@ebiguy thanks and no worries, I'm not ready to use any beta just yet anyway, I don't even have my Incognito in my hands yet.

[Jeffrey Worley]

7 hours ago, ebiguy said:

I did not included yet the fix from Faicuai in order to work with Incognito.

 

The package on FJC's web site contains the 4 OSS languages with bank switching adapted for SIDE2 cartridge so that they work either under SDX or without SDX.

But the Basic XE extension was crashing when loading.

This new version fixes the extension crash so that Basic XE gracefully works along with its extension.

And I am also looking at Basic XL extension.

 

I don't want to post beta versions here that people would get several month later without knowing if it is the latest version or if there were some bugs.

I prefer giving in private a beta version to testers and, when they say that they it seems to work, the new package will be available on FJC's web site to the full community.

 

I didn't know there WAS a Basic XL extension!

 

Best,

 

Jeff

[ebiguy]

17 minutes ago, Technoid Mutant said:

I didn't know there WAS a Basic XL extension!

Not as useful and powerful as Basic XE extension.

It only adds Procedure and sort features and it takes several Kbytes in main memory.

It's not straightforward to use as you have to run a command (EXTEND.COM) before entering the cartridge then issue a Basic 'MOVE' command to activate the extension.

Even back in the days, I doubt that it was used.

[Jeffrey Worley]

35 minutes ago, ebiguy said:

Not as useful and powerful as Basic XE extension.

It only adds Procedure and sort features and it takes several Kbytes in main memory.

It's not straightforward to use as you have to run a command (EXTEND.COM) before entering the cartridge then issue a Basic 'MOVE' command to activate the extension.

Even back in the days, I doubt that it was used.

Back when I was was owner of the real carts, from the shrinkwrap.   I never used the BXE extensions either.  For the most part I used it as a BXL replacement.  I forget what it has that BXL doesn't, but without the extensions it still has some added features.

.

[Scatter]

3 hours ago, Technoid Mutant said:

Back when I was was owner of the real carts, from the shrinkwrap.   I never used the BXE extensions either.  For the most part I used it as a BXL replacement.  I forget what it has that BXL doesn't, but without the extensions it still has some added features.

.

BXE allows you to use the 130XE extended memory, it has a FAST command that makes GOTOs and GOSUBs faster, it has a line renumber command, and it displays error messages rather than the error numbers. I believe that all four require the extensions disk but I know for sure that the error messages require it.

[Faicuai]

On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 9:01 AM, Technoid Mutant said:

I have been running BXL on my U1MB 800xl under Atari os and the Mux! OS (Mostly on the MUX OS), for several months continuously, under the most arduous of conditions:  Spartados X32g with Moe (Ansi27), and Carina II (2.7) running Cheeze Daddy's House of Funk BBS (Telnet Atari8.us port 10001).  The board runs flawlessly in Basic XL with the Side2 for hard disk access in conjunction with the U1MB.  It WOULD run without the U1MB, but Moe is a picky critter.  You can pretty much put concerns about BXL and the Side to bed.  I have not tried BXE, but will give it a go.  Don't think I need the extensions to test it.  The extensions were always a bit superfluous to me anyway.  Kenny Sallot used them strenuously in his Moe-based TDXE BBS software.  I never did, mostly just using BXE as a BXL replacement.

 

Best,

 

Jeff

Nice!

 

Took a little while to answer, because I spent a good deal of time testing Basic/XE + XE-Extensions 4.11 (which I recently finished adjusting / correcting specifically for Incognito).

 

I always thought of Basic/XL as the most straightforward and overall compatible of the group. I also thought (which I confirmed) that it could beat {Basic/XE+XE-extensions} without any of its XL- extensions, as long as a powerful-enough FP package was involved (that's the beauty of Basic/XL). And it turns out that it did, especially with the FP-pack bundled on my XE03 OS load...

 

..But without it, and especially on integer operations, Basic/XL will not be able to match Basic/XE no matter what the effort or test you choose. That is what I've just concluded, and to be expected considering the much larger (and trickier) memory-footprint of Basic/XE.

 

Not really sure it will matter that much on your specific application (Basic/XL seems to me just fine there), but on my line-of-interest, there is a real difference between the two.

 

Cheers!

Edited October 21, 2019 by Faicuai

[Jeffrey Worley]

59 minutes ago, Scatter said:

BXE allows you to use the 130XE extended memory, it has a FAST command that makes GOTOs and GOSUBs faster, it has a line renumber command, and it displays error messages rather than the error numbers. I believe that all four require the extensions disk but I know for sure that the error messages require it.

BLX has the Fast command as well.

 

[Roydea6]

Okay who among this crowd is going to start testing this new BXE  basicxe.oss ….

[Jeffrey Worley]

3 hours ago, rdea6 said:

Okay who among this crowd is going to start testing this new BXE  basicxe.oss ….

I will this weekend!  Remind me!

[Gunstar]

On 10/20/2019 at 9:02 PM, Scatter said:

BXE allows you to use the 130XE extended memory, it has a FAST command that makes GOTOs and GOSUBs faster, it has a line renumber command, and it displays error messages rather than the error numbers. I believe that all four require the extensions disk but I know for sure that the error messages require it.

Using BXE with SpartaDOS X I know the extensions/files from the extension disk have to be in the boot partition or the disk/image in D1: real or virtual floppy disk to put BXE in EXTEND mode, and I've also noticed that many Atari BASIC programs won't run right if I don't have the BXE extensions disk for BXE to access at startup. I'm not sure why that is, but it is. My guess is it's due to memory management with extended memory with SDX and BXE and where the memlo is and where the Basic program loads into memory, but I haven't bothered looking into it, I just make sure BXE boots with access to the extensions. But I don't have to use the EXTEND command for Atari BASIC programs to work, just have to make sure the config.sys file for SpartaDOS sets up extended memory so that SDX and BXE don't try to use the same extended memory banks and boot with the extensions disk or files accessible by BXE in the SDX boot partition designated Drive number or floppydisk/image in D1: if I boot from D1: floppy disk or virtual floppy drive.

 

I am of course using an unconventional set-up of a real Super SDX cartridge from Dropcheck, in conjunction with MyIDE II with APT partitions on the MyIDE II CF card and FJC's SpartaDOS driver for MyIDE II, with MyIDE II piggy-backing on the SSDX cart, and the OSS cartridge images I use are versions patched by Mr. Atari for MyIDE II. It's not possible to use an SDX cart rom and OSS language cart rom on the MyIDE II at the same time, as they both require the same flash memory or sram (I forget which they use on the MyIDE II), it requires a real SDX cart so the MyIDE II memory is free to be used by the OSS cart. I look forward to using SDX and @ebiguy 's fixed OSS language roms for the SiDE loader on the Incognito in XL/XE mode. And SDX with BASIC A+ in Colleen mode using Axlon extended memory, if ebiguy has patched a version of BA+ too for the SiDE Loader. Otherwise at least I can still use Mac/65 and Action! in Colleen mode, right? I just have to have something better than Atari BASIC and unfortunately, though Turbo BASIC has a version that will work from SDX, you can't jump between Turbo BASIC and SDX on the fly with car and dos commands like you can with the OSS BASICs and Atari BASIC. One reason I insist on this ability for programming is so I can use SDX's software 64 and 80 column screen modes. And I don't mind that they use main memory normally available for programming since I have extended memory banks and MyIDE II sram to use while programming, even if I plan on the program I'm writing will run in standard 40 columns and only from main memory when I'm not programming and editing the code.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Gunstar

[Bee]

I have a Side2 with the files from FJCs site installed from a file dated August. 

 

SIDE/SIDE2 Loader and SDX ROMs (August 2019)

 

It works somewhat better with my 130XE over my EXGS. Are there any cliff notes anyone can share on getting the extensions to play nice and allow a dir in basic of the carts D3: drive?  Always locks up when I run the extensions from D3: 

 

Are these notes relevant to this problem?  

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/295737-whatever-happened-to-scopy/page/2/#comments

 

How do I tag the people involved into a thread or should I just PM them to the Thread?

 

I'm moving forward but every few steps forward there is one back.

 

Thx

 

 

 

[ebiguy]

Files from August 2019 had bugs with Basic XE extension.

You have to wait until FJC updates the loader and SDX rom.

And no, there is no relation between the other notes and the problem you experienced.

 

[Jeffrey Worley]

On 10/23/2019 at 2:14 AM, Gunstar said:

Using BXE with SpartaDOS X I know the extensions/files from the extension disk have to be in the boot partition or the disk/image in D1: real or virtual floppy disk to put BXE in EXTEND mode, and I've also noticed that many Atari BASIC programs won't run right if I don't have the BXE extensions disk for BXE to access at startup. I'm not sure why that is, but it is. My guess is it's due to memory management with extended memory with SDX and BXE and where the memlo is and where the Basic program loads into memory, but I haven't bothered looking into it, I just make sure BXE boots with access to the extensions. But I don't have to use the EXTEND command for Atari BASIC programs to work, just have to make sure the config.sys file for SpartaDOS sets up extended memory so that SDX and BXE don't try to use the same extended memory banks and boot with the extensions disk or files accessible by BXE in the SDX boot partition designated Drive number or floppydisk/image in D1: if I boot from D1: floppy disk or virtual floppy drive.

 

I am of course using an unconventional set-up of a real Super SDX cartridge from Dropcheck, in conjunction with MyIDE II with APT partitions on the MyIDE II CF card and FJC's SpartaDOS driver for MyIDE II, with MyIDE II piggy-backing on the SSDX cart, and the OSS cartridge images I use are versions patched by Mr. Atari for MyIDE II. It's not possible to use an SDX cart rom and OSS language cart rom on the MyIDE II at the same time, as they both require the same flash memory or sram (I forget which they use on the MyIDE II), it requires a real SDX cart so the MyIDE II memory is free to be used by the OSS cart. I look forward to using SDX and @ebiguy 's fixed OSS language roms for the SiDE loader on the Incognito in XL/XE mode. And SDX with BASIC A+ in Colleen mode using Axlon extended memory, if ebiguy has patched a version of BA+ too for the SiDE Loader. Otherwise at least I can still use Mac/65 and Action! in Colleen mode, right? I just have to have something better than Atari BASIC and unfortunately, though Turbo BASIC has a version that will work from SDX, you can't jump between Turbo BASIC and SDX on the fly with car and dos commands like you can with the OSS BASICs and Atari BASIC. One reason I insist on this ability for programming is so I can use SDX's software 64 and 80 column screen modes. And I don't mind that they use main memory normally available for programming since I have extended memory banks and MyIDE II sram to use while programming, even if I plan on the program I'm writing will run in standard 40 columns and only from main memory when I'm not programming and editing the code.

Just funny.  I can't remember last I ran a 'standard' setup.  I think it was my 1200xl, mpp1000e modem, 1050 disk drive...  After that, well, madness.  ATR8000's, Black Boxes;....  What IS standard anymore?

[Gunstar]

Too true. The way I do it isn't too far removed from a legacy set-up with Rambo extended memory, Black box/HDD and SpartaDOS X w/BXE cart piggybacked (in basic theory and operation) . Once you get into Side 2/U1MB or incognito, then you are drifting further away from a legacy set-up. But standard? Beyond cartridges and a floppy drive?

Edited December 27, 2019 by Gunstar

[flashjazzcat]

15 minutes ago, Gunstar said:

Once you get into Side 2/U1MB or incognito, then you are drifting further away from a legacy set-up.

In the context of hard disks and DOS, U1MB/SIDE2 simply presents the user with an SDX cart and a PBI HDD host adapter which is functionally identical to an external adapter plugged into the back of the machine. The firmware may be more 'modern' than that of a Black Box and the whole thing may run faster, but the theory of operation is basically the same.