XL keyboard technical drawings

[+Philsan]

Inverse key with Atari logo please! ?

[_The Doctor__]

You could use the fuji logo with the slanted inverse theme.

[ivop]

19 hours ago, Sugarland said:

Very excited to see the final product! Can't wait for the flood of replacement keyboards on ebay. ?  Thank you for the updates.

We'll see Note that it has not been tested yet.

 

Also, I have no plans on designing new keycaps. This is meant to replace the wonky mylar with a proper PCB and reuse the original caps.

[ivop]

...which doesn't mean you can't order a bunch of Cherry keycaps, and have your own decals printed

 

Generated gerbers and drill files. Now I must overcome my hesitance to order. I'm always afraid I made one tiny mistake And this will be the most expensive PCB order I have ever done. Except for one (the VS1053 waveblaster), all my PCBs worked as expected. But still, you never know.

 

One last look, and I'm going to order anyway. See what happens

 

Edit:

 

 

Now that was difficult

 

 

Edit2:

 

 

Fingers crossed ?

 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by ivop

[ivop]

Well, they took a bit longer.

 

 

So that's a ride from Hangzou, China, to Shanghai Airport, several scans, flight to Sennan in Japan, flight to Grace-Hollogne (which is Luik/Liege) in Belgium. That's just across the border of Maastricht, but no, it was flown to Paris, France(!) Apparently it's now in transit again. I assume to Amsterdam, The Netherlands ? They say they'll deliver it at my doorstep within 10 hours from now. I'm off to bed

 

[ivop]

Incroyable. They managed 10:30am

 

 

First mistake I noticed: it was pretty dumb to do black on yellow. Now my "serial number" window is completely black, which is pretty hard to write on

 

Next, I need to separate the ROSSH part (hacksaw or boxknife), and then start soldering the switches!

 

 

Edit: BTW considering the DHL prices (see two posts above), I was surprised to see a DHL guy at the door, because I ordered FedEx!

 

Edit2:

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by ivop

[ivop]

Small update:

 

I have cut another two boards. Hacksaw was so easy (there's a line on the silkscreen), so I didn't try a boxcutter.

 

It is based on the AWC (with oldskool Cherry switches) circuit board. It fits perfectly. Only need to drill 8 holes, all in the border of the PCB.

 

Also checked a Stackpole frame. Fits nicely, too, but apparently the LED is not at exactly the same place, but slightly lower now. That's not really a problem, and can be mitigated for when soldering the LED, if that's necessary.

 

There are two other problems to overcome with the Stackpole-all-metal frames. One is to avoid the PCB shorting itself against the metal frame. Two is how to attach the PCB to the metal frame. The screw holes are at completely different places, and used to screw into that all-plastic frame that held all the keycaps and springs to press against the mylar.

 

Contrary to the AWC boards, the screws come from below and need to attach itself to the PCB. Very carefully find the spots where it won't bother a switch that's soldered to the PCB. And to solve problem one by placing small pieces of self-adhesive rubber between the metal frame and the PCB.

 

I'm also considering Velcro to solve both problems at once. Seriously

 

 

Edit: oh, and the small update is that I'm waiting for longer flat cables to arrive. I thought I had them, but the longest were just 10cm BUT I had already ordered them a week ago, so I hope they'll arrive shortly. Also ordered a bunch of 4051 ICs. Just to be sure.

Edited May 10, 2021 by ivop

[ivop]

Still waiting on the flat cables and 4051s...

 

 

 

 

 

There's some lens distortion. ESC/TAB/CTRL/SHIFT do not overhang the PCB.

 

Another lesson learned for REV B: 3 pin Cherry MX switches are hard to get properly aligned when soldering. Replace with 5 pin footprint, which can accomodate both.

 

Edit: I fixed the C key after I took the picture. That's not lens distortion

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by ivop

[ivop]

Update:

 

 

Keyboard works, BUT!

 

This original 600XL adapter with resistors...

 

 

...is very hard to work with. While desoldering the original 1x24 edge connector I lifted two traces. Sort of fixed that with lots of flux and solder. But after connecting the Dupont connectors, this happened:

 

 

...on different traces(!). It sucks.

 

I'm going to design new adapter boards with or without resistors, and 0.8mm thick, which they should be. The original boards are only 0.6mm thick. Cost savings?

 

In the mean time, I might convert an 800XL to a pin header connection.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by ivop

[archeocomp]

0.8mm pcb might be too thick for this type of edge connectors. The original 0.6mm adapter hardly fits in there.

 

As I had similar issue with lifted pads on adapter board and damaged flat cable I used 1mm ffc cable and very thin pcb.

 

 

Sorry now I found you have already seen my solution.

Edited June 3, 2021 by archeocomp

[ivop]

My assumption is that a 2xYY edge connector needs 1.6mm cards, and 1xYY needs 0.8mm cards.

 

@tf_hh used 0.8mm here:

 

 

[archeocomp]

Internet and (European) shops are full of DS1020 connectors series but all only have this one PDF

https://www.tme.eu/Document/52cfc1616aa57f773a566501add21fb7/DS1020.pdf

 

That unfortunately does not specify max thickness of inserted wire. But beware these are WIRE to BOARD connectors. They are not the same as cartridge edge connectors. Do not assume that 0.8mm PCB was supposed to be inserted there. What Atari did was just workaround, and they used 0.6mm thickness.

BTW 0.6mm are more expensive than 0.8mm in most PCB manufacturer shops. I remember very well that I hardly inserted (from other thread) green PCBWay adapter which is 0.6mm into the connector. And I was really afraid that it damaged the connector. It is possible that even 0.8mm might still fit in but that is not what is supposed to be inserted into these connectors. Flat WIRE is to be inserted there.

[flemingt]

I had the same idea (mechanical KB replacement) and had gone as far too mock up a layout and about to play with kicad. Then I stumbled across this project. Is it still active?

[ivop]

1 hour ago, flemingt said:

I had the same idea (mechanical KB replacement) and had gone as far too mock up a layout and about to play with kicad. Then I stumbled across this project. Is it still active?

Sort of   I have meant to install one in a housing, but didn't have the motivation yet. If I have some energy, I spend it on programming atm.

 

But all the files are here: https://github.com/ivop/project-helena

 

And you can extend them as much as you want. Right now the space bar is modeled after the space bars that have three connectors for a switch, so no stabilizer is necessary. The stackpole keys are the keys for which the 3D printable adapter was created. Its space bar can be placed on three switches, too, but needs two more modified adapters. I have not designed these yet, but used a file and saw to adapt the normal adapter. A bit of malleable gum (knead them in the right shape) could probably be used, too. The long shift uses rubber pads underneath, like the ALPS keyboards.

 

Have fun!

[flemingt]

Excellent, thanks.

 

I noticed in the thread that you mentioned some revisions, are they included in the GitHub?

 

I was thinking that maybe instead of adaptors for the keys it might be cleaner to resin print new stems for the switches, take them apart and replace the stock ones.

 

Otherwise it probably wouldn't be too difficult to get many of the keys reproduced like the image attached.

 

I must take a look at my keyboard and see what the stabilisers look like.

Edited January 19, 2022 by flemingt

[ivop]

10 minutes ago, flemingt said:

Excellent, thanks.

 

I noticed in the thread that you mentioned some revisions, are they included in the GitHub?

There are some commits before the current version: https://github.com/ivop/project-helena/commits/main

 

If you mean newer revisions, they do not exist. Note that if you work on top of this project, I recommend to use 5-pin cherry switches instead. You can still solder 3-pin switches to the same footprint, but 5-pin switches are way easier to get properly aligned.

 

Quote

I was thinking that maybe instead of adaptors for the keys it might be cleaner to resin print new stems for the switches, take them apart and replace the stock ones.

Wow, that's a completely different take at it to adapt to old school keycaps. It takes a little bit more work, but if you can make it without breaking the switches, that would be very cool!

 

Quote

Otherwise it probably wouldn't be too difficult to get many of the keys reproduced.

That's also an option, but my goal was to reuse the original keys.

 

Quote

I must take a look at my keyboard and see what the stabilisers look like.

Most of the time it's a long aluminum bent bar. Some keyboard also have one on the long shift key, but others use rubber pads underneath.

Edited January 19, 2022 by ivop

[flemingt]

Well I was "inspired" by this: https://twitter.com/A8bit/status/1446123341392138245?t=CVHojlJ9EyLVY4Q5lYfesw&s=19

[ivop]

6 minutes ago, flemingt said:

Well I was "inspired" by this: https://twitter.com/A8bit/status/1446123341392138245?t=CVHojlJ9EyLVY4Q5lYfesw&s=19

Oh, I totally missed they replaced the stem. That project is here on AA. Thought it was also an adapter. Very nice!

 

Quote

You'll need a resin printer to print the stems, FFF isn't high enough resolution.

I was a pretty early adopter of affordable FDM 3D printing, and in hindsight a little bit too early (12x12x12 print volume). So I have been a little hesitant to buy a resin printer. A lot of people say it can be a mess with the resin and toxicity. Perhaps in a year or two.

Edited January 19, 2022 by ivop
typoos

[flemingt]

I know a bunch of local makers that have resin printers so I think I could source them for myself at least. 

 

I too have an FDM printer, great things, but they definitely have their limitations.

[flemingt]

On 5/17/2021 at 5:20 PM, ivop said:

Still waiting on the flat cables and 4051s...

 

 

 

 

 

There's some lens distortion. ESC/TAB/CTRL/SHIFT do not overhang the PCB.

 

Another lesson learned for REV B: 3 pin Cherry MX switches are hard to get properly aligned when soldering. Replace with 5 pin footprint, which can accomodate both.

 

Edit: I fixed the C key after I took the picture. That's not lens distortion

 

How are you handling the space bar stabiliser? I see you have extra switches, but how do they interface?

 

I'm picking through kicad and that other project to see if some sort hybrid makes sense.

[flemingt]

Using this library: keyswitch-kicad-library from perigoso - Github Help

I've added holes for stabilisers to the PCB, it'll probably be handy enough to print something to clip into them.

Edited January 21, 2022 by flemingt
fat fingers

[ivop]

19 hours ago, flemingt said:

Using this library: keyswitch-kicad-library from perigoso - Github Help

I've added holes for stabilisers to the PCB, it'll probably be handy enough to print something to clip into them.

Nice! It's a pity that the two other spacebar switches are gone though, but I guess they don't fit because of the stabilizer holes?

 

Do you plan on replacing the 3-pin plate footprints with the 5-pin PCB footprint? They are easier to align the keys properly in regard to each other.

[flemingt]

My machine doesn't have those extra space bar buttons. I plan on printing PCB mount stabilizer brackets to go in those holes. I've already changed the hole spacing of the above to avoid collision with the underside of the space bar. 

A friend dropped over some of the adaptors you designed in petg earlier, so I'll give them a go later. As for 5 hole, a bit more work - to be decided

[ivop]

10 minutes ago, flemingt said:

My machine doesn't have those extra space bar buttons. I plan on printing PCB mount stabilizer brackets to go in those holes. I've already changed the hole spacing of the above to avoid collision with the underside of the space bar. 

A friend dropped over some of the adaptors you designed in petg earlier, so I'll give them a go later. As for 5 hole, a bit more work - to be decided

Thanks. I'm already glad that somebody took interest in this project and decided to move on Good luck!

[ivop]

21 hours ago, flemingt said:

How are you handling the space bar stabiliser? I see you have extra switches, but how do they interface?

Somehow missed this post earlier. ALPS keys have three crosses at the bottom (cross adapter not made yet), so the idea was to accommodate for these keys and use different adapters for Stackpole keys. If you look underneath the stackpole space bar, there are crossbars for which a custom stackpole adapter could be made (bigger top with a slit in which the crossbar fits. Sorry, having problems finding the right English words, but I hope you get what I mean.