flemingt Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 Thanks for explaining, it makes perfect sense. I'm going to run with the idea of stabilizer clips for now and see how far it takes me. I'll need to make some measurements for the location of the holes in the metal back plate and see if they interfere with the traces. It might be possible to use longer screws to space it off the metal plate, though I don't know how proud that will make the keys compared to the standard heights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Progress is slow going with work and life getting in the way. While switches, connectors, and wires are on the slow boat from China I've been working on the holes on the metal backplane using a lot of triangulation so that I can eventually transfer them to the PCB. In addition, modifying the switch footprints on the PCB to accommodate 5 holes, which is quite a manual process given I know nothing of KiCAD. Jan Beta had a recent video for an Amiga A1200 KB replacement where they used 2 PCBs sandwiched together to give height / strength / insulation. It's something I might consider considering the minimum PCB ordering quantity is 5. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 All traces have been rerouted to accommodate the extra holes associated with the switches. I even found a missing via. The design currently passes the KiCAD audit function, but no doubt I've made mistakes. Over the next few days I'll figure out adding the mounting holes, datums etc., which will no doubt require me to reroute some of the traces again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 Cool! Thanks for continuing this project. The 5-pin switches will be so much easier to solder. Could you point me to the missing via? Didn't notice any not working keys and the DRC checked ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 No problem. It's an interesting project, and a learning experience for me I'm not in front of that computer at the moment but I marked up a screenshot that happened to be in my phone from an intermediate version. Truthfully I may have deleted the via when I was playing with KiCAD! (Or it's some sort of micro via, I'm no expert) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 I see. There used to be a switch close to there, not a via. This probably happened when you went for a single switch with stabilizer. Good you found it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Haha, I knew it was my fault. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Right, I think rev B is done. I thought of a much better way of placing the holes to match the metal plate that involved some Excel work. PCBway is quoting 100 freedom bucks for the minimum 5x PCBs delivered. I'm still waiting on switches, cables, headers etc. but if anyone wants to sanity check my work, just let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted January 27, 2022 Author Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, flemingt said: PCBway is quoting 100 freedom bucks for the minimum 5x PCBs delivered. Wow, that got expensive. I got five boards (plus two extras they apparently had room for) for something like $40, including shipping. That was with ALLPCB. Very nice how you managed to place the Stackpole backplate holes without interfering with the switches. What do you plan to put in between to avoid shorts? Edited January 27, 2022 by ivop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 I'll shop around with some other PCB manufacturers to see if I can get a better price. Once I figured out that the screw holes were all positioned with respect to the centre of the switches all I had to do was get the coordinates of the appropriate switch and apply offsets. Once I get the switches I'll see how much clearance I have so that the keys aren't too proud. It'll either be a layer of foam or 3D printed standoffs that go into the holes on the metal plate and the PCB. Of course I might be able gain more height by resin printing new switch stems and forgo the need for adaptors, that'll give me more options on spacing the PCB from the plate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) Some kit bashing of an stl file. I added a Stackpole top to a Cherry stem. It should be resin printable. I ordered Gateron switches, depending on internal differences, this might just be proof of concept. But at least I've the process down. Edited January 28, 2022 by flemingt extra detail 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 1 hour ago, flemingt said: Some kit bashing of an stl file. I added a Stackpole top to a Cherry stem. It should be resin printable. I ordered Gateron switches, depending on internal differences, this might just be proof of concept. But at least I've the process down. Hi @flemingt, Hey, firstly, great project. I am not sure if you saw this, but there was another project posted for 130XE Keyboard Atari 130XE keyboard rebuild: vintage keycaps on modern switches. I am in the final stages of finishing it (working on connectivity). In that thread there is an STL for replacement stems for Kailh Box Pink switches. Would you be able to remix this STL to use the Kailh bottom and stack pole top? Interestingly, the box stems looks like a closer replacement. As an exercise, I had actually printed the stem from that project using my FDM printer (Ender 3) to try it out and it actually worked a lot better than I expected. If you post some STL's, maybe I can print a couple of tests since I have a bunch of Cherry, Kailh and Gateron switches on hand. I think it will be important that you pick a particular brand of switch since manufacturers have their own take on the Cherry switch design. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Hey, thanks for your interest in my (more importantly ivops) work so far. I did take a look at the 130xe project, great work by screamingattheradio, and part of the inspiration for my efforts. Yeah, I should be able to do that for you sometime over the weekend. It'll be good to see if the dimensions of the stackpole boss fit actual keys and I can tweak as necessary. Thanks for the offer of the test prints and fits. I forked ivops GitHub, my files are here. There's a 3D Printing subdirectory with my current STL. I'll drop the kailh one in there too when it's done. https://github.com/flemingt/project-helena I ordered Gareron browns as I have them in my day to day computer keyboard and I like the feel - so very much a personal preference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildstar87 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) JLCPCB usually has the best prices IMO. Interesting, I've been racking my brain on how to make a mount for the Stackpole backplate that doesn't short the PCB, I was trying to come up with a mount that didn't use the backplate. If I am understanding correctly, you are going to use the existing screw holes that hold the plastic keyboard portion down to the membrane as mounting holes. I'm assuming you will use some sort of spacer (to avoid shorting) between the back of the PCB and the Stackpole plate? Do you think it can be done, without having to add spacing between the plate and the top case (to make enough room for PCB in between)? Edited January 28, 2022 by wildstar87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Thanks for the recommendation. I went with AllPCB today based on ivops earlier post. $43 shipped for 5, so I can afford to fail. Who knows when they'll get here with Chinese New Year. No rush though. If I can cheat enough space with the switch stem replacements I'm thinking of printing standoffs that will accept the existing screws and clip the PCB in place, also a layer of foam just to be safe. If that doesn't work I'll figure something else out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted January 29, 2022 Share Posted January 29, 2022 21 hours ago, flemingt said: Hey, thanks for your interest in my (more importantly ivops) work so far. I did take a look at the 130xe project, great work by screamingattheradio, and part of the inspiration for my efforts. Yeah, I should be able to do that for you sometime over the weekend. It'll be good to see if the dimensions of the stackpole boss fit actual keys and I can tweak as necessary. Thanks for the offer of the test prints and fits. I forked ivops GitHub, my files are here. There's a 3D Printing subdirectory with my current STL. I'll drop the kailh one in there too when it's done. https://github.com/flemingt/project-helena I ordered Gareron browns as I have them in my day to day computer keyboard and I like the feel - so very much a personal preference. Hi @ivop and @flemingt @ivop sorry for the omission earlier. I was typing to fast and did not include you on the initial post. Thank you very much for all your hard work on this nice project! I am going to print out the stem later today to see how it fits with the switch and keycap. What is great is that there is a project for a new custom 600XL/800XL in the works and and a project for a new keyboard. All we need is a custom case and we can build a highly personalized Atari 8 bit (there is company selling an acrylic case for the 800Xl, but I am not totally sold on that material for the case). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted January 29, 2022 Author Share Posted January 29, 2022 10 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: there is company selling an acrylic case for the 800Xl, but I am not totally sold on that material for the case I had one. Emphasis on had. It dropped by accident from 20-30cm height, and it shattered in little bitty pieces. Not very durable. Also, it was highly prone to scratches. I won't recommend it. We need a proper 3D model that can be (resin) printed, and then painted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 On 1/28/2022 at 6:26 PM, scorpio_ny said: Hi @flemingt, Hey, firstly, great project. I am not sure if you saw this, but there was another project posted for 130XE Keyboard Atari 130XE keyboard rebuild: vintage keycaps on modern switches. I am in the final stages of finishing it (working on connectivity). In that thread there is an STL for replacement stems for Kailh Box Pink switches. Would you be able to remix this STL to use the Kailh bottom and stack pole top? Interestingly, the box stems looks like a closer replacement. As an exercise, I had actually printed the stem from that project using my FDM printer (Ender 3) to try it out and it actually worked a lot better than I expected. If you post some STL's, maybe I can print a couple of tests since I have a bunch of Cherry, Kailh and Gateron switches on hand. I think it will be important that you pick a particular brand of switch since manufacturers have their own take on the Cherry switch design. Before I go down the rabbit hole on this, are you sure that this doesn't fit your purpose? 3d-junkyard/keeb-stem-square.stl at main · bleroy/3d-junkyard (github.com) A new system with all the integrated common mods would be great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, flemingt said: Before I go down the rabbit hole on this, are you sure that this doesn't fit your purpose? 3d-junkyard/keeb-stem-square.stl at main · bleroy/3d-junkyard (github.com) A new system with all the integrated common mods would be great! It would be great! I took a look at @ScreamingAtTheRadio GitHub and I see that he has a lot of adapters for different keyboard types for cherry switches. I will take a look at the files. In the meantime, I printed the stem from the project helena GitHub and I put into a Gateron red shell. The stem I printed was not perfect, but it did work! I tested the switch in one of my hot swap key-boards and it registered the key switches correctly! I noticed that with the 800XL stack pool keycap, the keycap seemed a little more taller/deeper than the shaft of the switch stem. So it sinks in a little bit and cuts the travel of the switch. Also, the the keycap's opening is a little wider at the top an bottom. The keycap has free movement if you wiggle it up and down. Maybe a top crown of the the switch stem in form of small cross? I have attached some photo for you see. If you have any more questions, please let me know! Edited January 30, 2022 by scorpio_ny Typo corrections and statement clarity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 30, 2022 Share Posted January 30, 2022 Thanks for checking this out for me. It looks like the design isn't far off. For the key sinking I can just make the stackpole part taller. Can you estimate how much extra height it needs? I based the shape of the stackpole part off some drawings I found online. I'll see about taking a callipers to the keys in my 600XL to estimate the width better. A cap may be the way to go if it needs to be much wider, otherwise it'll interfere with the switch body. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 6 hours ago, flemingt said: Thanks for checking this out for me. It looks like the design isn't far off. For the key sinking I can just make the stackpole part taller. Can you estimate how much extra height it needs? I based the shape of the stackpole part off some drawings I found online. I'll see about taking a callipers to the keys in my 600XL to estimate the width better. A cap may be the way to go if it needs to be much wider, otherwise it'll interfere with the switch body. I will get you some measurements with my caliper tomorrow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 This is from my 600xl, as far as I can tell the central well is square in profile with 4.76mm a side and about 10mm deep (so the adapted section needs to be 10mm plus the 4mm full travel distance of the switch). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted January 31, 2022 Author Share Posted January 31, 2022 Here's my FreeCAD file of the adapter. The cube on top fits pretty nice in the ol' stackpole keys. Perhaps it can be of use. I believe I only shared the .stl before. kcadapt2-stackpole-v4.fcstd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Apologies, @flemingt. I promised to get you some readings, but my Igaging digital caliper is not giving accurate readings (looks like to get a better replacement). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingt Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 No problem, do you want to give his version a try instead? cherry to stackpole replacement stem v2.stl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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