New, cheaper SGM clone.

[MrPix]

2 minutes ago, evg2000 said:

OP, since you didn’t reverse engineer the hardware your clone may not be 100% compatible with sgm games now or in the future. how do you deal with a customer who says game x doesn’t work on your device?

Unless the SGM has undocumented features, I have exactly reproduced and simulated the results of his equations, and created my own set of equations that perfectly matches. So for all *existing* functionality, it is 100% compatible. I cannot search for undocumented features, because that would mean examining the physical device, and that could put me in an infringing position. However, this would require the sort of unpleasantry where Opcode Games rewrites code to detect the absence of undocumented features. If that were to happen, it would be FTDI all over again, and he would have to recant and apologize quite quickly.

2 minutes ago, evg2000 said:

do you fix it for free?  have you tested it with all current sgm games?  are you offering money back guarantee?

Every item I produce and sell has a one year warranty. If it fails because of a design or hardware failure I would replace it free of charge, including covering shipping, or offer a full refund. If Opcode's games break compatibility, I would provide a logic update to incorporate the new functionality free of charge. I will ensure my CPLD is socketed to allow for this eventuality.

I do not have the catalog to test the unit with all the games. I plan, closer to release date, to send out a couple of beta test units for basic testing and then a set of review/test units to people who do have a good selection of games. Those people will be able to freely compare my compatible unit with their existing SGM.

All files will be open source and anyone, even Opcode, will be able to make them. 

So yes, I will stand behind what I make.

[opcode]

3 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I was going to ask Ed about licensing terms, on the basis that it might be cheaper than my attorney's time, but he closed that door and told me quite clearly that we have nothing further to discuss. So here we are. Drama and people being offended on behalf of someone else. I've got a lot of hate mail and support mail - about 50/50, over all. It's just a tough situation all round.
 

 

Don't push, you made your intentions pretty clear. "Rather silly of CollectorVision they paid a license", remember? 

 

It is a though situation because you created that. If you are so amazing as you say, software and all, you just have to create your own thing. Create your own platform, people will love it. IMHO you are just a bluffer that is here to create a new wave of drama, even with people telling you what they would like to see, and what not to do.

[128Kgames]

44 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I reverse engineered it in three hours from publicly available information. The only information provided by Eduardo was which IO ports he'd used. This information is highly generic.

 

I've been doing retro hardware since before it was retro. I started in 1984, to be precise. I first did Coleco hardware in the 90s.

 

Don't ever presume to tell me what I should say, think or feel.

Um, you completely missed my point on that.  A lot more went into the SGM then just "making it", but I can see you you're not interested in that.   

 

Your profile says you joined AA in 2018, I clearly stated "I don't think you've been around here long enough."  Here being AA, clearly.  Congratulations on doing retro hardware since 1984; I've been playing with it since the 70's.  I first owned a Coleco in 1982.  

 

Lastly, I said "I don't get the feeling" which is clearly stating my opinion, not telling you yours.  Pointing out something that maybe you're not seeing is just good psychotherapy.

 

 

 

[MrPix]

2 minutes ago, opcode said:

 

Don't push....

Sir, you've commented almost a dozen times in my thread. I have not addressed or replied to you a single time. I am not going to engage you. You said we had nothing to discuss. Please honor that.

[opcode]

1 minute ago, MrPix said:

Sir, you've commented almost a dozen times in my thread. I have not addressed or replied to you a single time. I am not going to engage you. You said we had nothing to discuss. Please honor that.

 

I am engaging you, I am calling out your falsehoods, since they concern me...  Let's count how many times you have used the words "Opcode", "Eduardo", and "SGM" in this thread? I fell this is a thread about me, not about you, considering how many times you have referred to me here. As I said, you seem really frustrated you can't get what you want.

[NIAD]

6 minutes ago, jblenkle said:

Juice's SGM's were pieces of crap, however. If I recall correctly, they had a buzzing noise in the sound. I, unfortunately, was one of the people who bought one, although I eventually got my money back.

I didn’t experience any issues such as the buzzing noise that you and others have described with the JuiceBox Say Game Module. I should have kept it as a backup and a novelty since it featured Speech Synth, but sold it to someone desperate for an SGM that couldn’t pay eBay prices when they were sold out.

 

[MrPix]

1 minute ago, 128Kgames said:

Um, you completely missed my point on that.  A lot more went into the SGM then just "making it", but I can see you you're not interested in that.   

I just took it for granted that there's the whole package. The design, the styling, the re-iterations of the case design to properly copy the original one, the planning of the marketing materials, box artwork, planning the whole opening the box experience. The whole juggling a couple of dozen suppliers with different tolerances, timelines, capabilities and qualities. I do that for a living so I priced it in. I do 100% acknowledge that.

At the same time, it's a risk of doing business. You invest in something, there will always be someone who wants to compete with you. If you hit your market with high prices to where someone can come in with literally half your price and still make a huge mark-up, you need to adapt your business model. You can have a tantrum instead if you want, but while you do your competitor is going to pass you. I designed a miniature buck regulator that I sold for $4. You can now buy 78 cent copies of my design from 100s of Chinese sellers. I'm not complaining about it. I am a little bitter, but I designed something better so I'm good.

1 minute ago, 128Kgames said:

Your profile says you joined AA in 2018, I clearly stated "I don't think you've been around here long enough."  Here being AA, clearly.  Congratulations on doing retro hardware since 1984; I've been playing with it since the 70's.  I first owned a Coleco in 1982.  

I came here often, and registered when I finally needed to PM someone. Matthew180, I think. 

It's really a great platform. The two bits I really enjoy are the CV/Adam community and the Intellivision community. I never even MET a moderator until today.

I am sorry that I was harsh. I was replying as much to the tone of the previous 42 messages I came home to, not just you. I apologize. 

[Greg2600]

Well Mr. Pix I would agree with your assessment of the confusion that the CV fandom has become.  I think the Phoenix is kinda cool, same as the SGM, though I don't own either of them.  I like the CV, just not quite enough to spend hundreds of dollars for games that existed on other systems.  I don't have a problem with a competing device, and frankly this "first dibs" stuff from the "community" is a bit much.  I can recall when The SainT offered to design the 7800 SD, and was attacked because that was batari's turf.  It's also a bit odd that we're attacking someone for "infringement" when countless CV/SGM games are unauthorized ports infringing on copyrights!

 

If the SGM-thing doesn't work out, and to be honest, I'm not sure how many future games will even use the SGM per se, making the market for a clone/alternative pretty shallow.  However, there's a definite need for an Intellivision flash cart (LTO has gone AWOL), not to mention one for the 7800. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Greg2600

[MrPix]

*treads carefully*

7 minutes ago, opcode said:

 Let's count how many times you have used the words "Opcode", "Eduardo", and "SGM" in this thread? I fell this is a thread about me, not about you, considering how many times you have referred to me here.

I'm talking about you, the corporate entity. It's a bit like talking about Apple or IBM. I don't expect them to post in my threads when I talk about them.

7 minutes ago, opcode said:

As I said, you seem really frustrated you can't get what you want.

You don't know what I want. You have said things you think I want and they're 100% off base.

Again, please stop trying to engage me. I will not respond to you any further, no matter what the provocation.

[128Kgames]

8 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I just took it for granted that there's the whole package. The design, the styling, the re-iterations of the case design to properly copy the original one, the planning of the marketing materials, box artwork, planning the whole opening the box experience. The whole juggling a couple of dozen suppliers with different tolerances, timelines, capabilities and qualities. I do that for a living so I priced it in. I do 100% acknowledge that.

At the same time, it's a risk of doing business. You invest in something, there will always be someone who wants to compete with you. If you hit your market with high prices to where someone can come in with literally half your price and still make a huge mark-up, you need to adapt your business model. You can have a tantrum instead if you want, but while you do your competitor is going to pass you. I designed a miniature buck regulator that I sold for $4. You can now buy 78 cent copies of my design from 100s of Chinese sellers. I'm not complaining about it. I am a little bitter, but I designed something better so I'm good.

I came here often, and registered when I finally needed to PM someone. Matthew180, I think. 

It's really a great platform. The two bits I really enjoy are the CV/Adam community and the Intellivision community. I never even MET a moderator until today.

I am sorry that I was harsh. I was replying as much to the tone of the previous 42 messages I came home to, not just you. I apologize. 

No worries man, we all try to be friends around here.  That being the case, the fact that you've experienced someone copying your own work maybe you can see why so many of us were here to defend Eduardo's.   

[MrPix]

3 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

Well Mr. Pix I would agree with your assessment of the confusion that the CV fandom has become.  I think the Phoenix is kinda cool, same as the SGM, though I don't own either of them.  I like the CV, just not quite enough to spend hundreds of dollars for games that existed on other systems.  I don't have a problem with a competing device, and frankly this "first dibs" stuff from the "community" is a bit much.  I can recall when The SainT offered to design the 7800 SD, and was attacked because that was batari's turf. 

I think it's a bit lame, but after the little flash of anger from the fanboys it'll all blow over and I'll be able to get on with the real work. I have to remind myself that I don't owe anyone any explanations, and it really doesn't come off well to try to explain when someone made up their mind about your motivations back in 2015, three years before you even registered on the forum.

At the end of the day, I just need an SGM compatible base for other new hardware.

3 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

If the SGM-thing doesn't work out, and to be honest, I'm not sure how many future games will even use the SGM per se, making the market for a clone/alternative pretty shallow.  However, there's a definite need for an Intellivision flash cart (LTO has gone AWOL), not to mention one for the 7800. 

This is true. It's just that so many DO own them that not having compatibility is a non-starter.

I looked at the Inty cart port and I honestly haven't fully grasped it yet. Normally I look at the memory system as a whole, but the way the Inty does things is like a bad and confusing fever dream. I do plan to put my wifi cart on the Inty a few months after releasing it for the CV.

I have a paged flash cart design I did for the CV, but during design I found out there was an existing one, so I stopped. I decided to circle round and see if I needed to be compatible with it or just go past it to the better thing. That's how I ended up at the Wifi cart.

[opcode]

6 minutes ago, MrPix said:

*treads carefully*

I'm talking about you, the corporate entity. It's a bit like talking about Apple or IBM. I don't expect them to post in my threads when I talk about them.

You don't know what I want. You have said things you think I want and they're 100% off base.

Again, please stop trying to engage me. I will not respond to you any further, no matter what the provocation.

There is no corporate entity, I am Opcode. You can't be for real...

 

Actually I do know what you want, because you told me, remember. You wanted to do services for me. Then you wanted me to support you, and then when you didn't get what you wanted, you want revenge, at any cost. You posted that, it is your first post here, you will half price whatever I do at the cost if necessary, so you can have your sweet revenge.

[TPR]

1 hour ago, MrPix said:

I am making an SGM clone. Anybody want one?

Don’t f with me. It won’t end well for you. I’m a moderator here, not your enemy. Got it?

[MrPix]

Just now, TPR said:

Don’t f with me. It won’t end well for you. I’m a moderator here, not your enemy. Got it?

That's absolutely not how it was intended.

You suggested that I should try an approach and I was demonstrating to you that I am trying that approach. It's tough that typing takes out the human inflection. If you heard me say it aloud you'd have smirked and said, "well ok then, that's better."

I'm not engaging the negative people. I'm answering questions. I'm trying to show you respect and a bit of humility. It's hard for me to steer the conversation anywhere other than where the 50 or so angry people want to steer it. I am ignoring them.

If you want we can talk in PMs? I am trying to be as constructive as I can be under very trying circumstances, because someone before me was apparently a jack hole. I welcome any guidance in PMs.

[opcode]

1 minute ago, MrPix said:

If you want we can talk in PMs? I am trying to be as constructive as I can be under very trying circumstances, because someone before me was apparently a jack hole. I welcome any guidance in PMs.

 

I would argue that a lot of guidance has already been provided here, but you prefer to ignore it.

[Greg2600]

32 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I think it's a bit lame, but after the little flash of anger from the fanboys it'll all blow over and I'll be able to get on with the real work. I have to remind myself that I don't owe anyone any explanations, and it really doesn't come off well to try to explain when someone made up their mind about your motivations back in 2015, three years before you even registered on the forum.

At the end of the day, I just need an SGM compatible base for other new hardware.

This is true. It's just that so many DO own them that not having compatibility is a non-starter.

I looked at the Inty cart port and I honestly haven't fully grasped it yet. Normally I look at the memory system as a whole, but the way the Inty does things is like a bad and confusing fever dream. I do plan to put my wifi cart on the Inty a few months after releasing it for the CV.

I have a paged flash cart design I did for the CV, but during design I found out there was an existing one, so I stopped. I decided to circle round and see if I needed to be compatible with it or just go past it to the better thing. That's how I ended up at the Wifi cart.

Oh it's a gateway to other hardware features, I see.  You probably should have led with that.

 

Well I can't speak for the Joe or Steve that created the LTO, maybe they're willing to help?  Groovy Bee was working on the other cart but he vanished. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Greg2600

[TPR]

8 minutes ago, MrPix said:

That's absolutely not how it was intended.

You snarkly quoted my suggestion on how it should have been approached. You know damn well that’s what you were doing. 
 

Once again I will remind you and everyone else in this thread: Keep the discussion civil. Keep it positive. This community has had too much drama over the years. 
 

I’m not here to argue or make enemies. I’m here to moderate drama out of the thread.

 

Don’t test me or push my buttons. Got it? That goes for everyone. 

[+Tarzilla]

33 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I think it's a bit lame, but after the little flash of anger from the fanboys it'll all blow over and I'll be able to get on with the real work. I have to remind myself that I don't owe anyone any explanations, and it really doesn't come off well to try to explain when someone made up their mind about your motivations back in 2015, three years before you even registered on the forum.
 

I does appear you are tone-deaf to the many responses in this thread, not just the ones from Opcode and CollectorVision. We "fanboys" as you derogatorily refer to us, are the ones that shell out our cash for ColecoVision related things and have kept the console alive. Alienate enough of us and you will find that we don't owe you any of our support or money such that when the cool new features you hint about come around, no-one will develop games that use that feature. That attitude will also spill into the Intellivision world as well if you decide to use the same attitude there.

[8th lutz]

24 minutes ago, Greg2600 said:

  Groovy Bee was working on the other cart but he vanished. 

It is true that Groovy Bee has not posted for a while anywhere on Atariage forums, but he has been mentioned. 

 

Groovy Bee has working on the 7800 XM according to Curt. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by 8th lutz

[MrPix]

16 minutes ago, TPR said:

You snarkly quoted my suggestion on how it should have been approached. You know damn well that’s what you were doing. 

I quoted your suggestion. It was not snarky. My style of snarky is very different to that. I am an admin and mod on several forums, so I appreciate your position. People tend to be ambiguous when responding to warnings and I was trying to be as direct and unambiguous as I could.

Also, American isn't my first language.

How else could I have replied to your instruction to communicate that it was understood? And again, explicitly, I am asking sincerely not snarkily. I am complying with your wishes.

[TPR]

4 minutes ago, MrPix said:

I quoted your suggestion. It was not snarky. My style of snarky is very different to that. I am an admin and mod on several forums, so I appreciate your position. People tend to be ambiguous when responding to warnings and I was trying to be as direct and unambiguous as I could.

Also, American isn't my first language.

How else could I have replied to your instruction to communicate that it was understood? And again, explicitly, I am asking sincerely not snarkily. I am complying with your wishes.

As I said. I’m not here to argue. I’m here to keep it clean. So please make my job easy and keep it clean. Fair enough? 

[MrPix]

100%. I don't want the drama. It's a distraction, and very disruptive to the whole community.

I'd really prefer to talk to things that could easily be added to an SGM compatible to make it more interesting.

 

[Mr. John ColecoVision]

18 minutes ago, MrPix said:

100%. I don't want the drama. It's a distraction, and very disruptive to the whole community.

I'd really prefer to talk to things that could easily be added to an SGM compatible to make it more interesting.

 

Your first post is in direct contradiction to this comment. Pick a stance.

[Keatah]

Everybody should just use emulators from here on out..

[christo930]

2 hours ago, MrPix said:

I respect your POV. 1000+ customers is 1000+ people who only had one choice. You cannot make assumptions about what they believe or think of them like votes. 1000+ people wanted a new CV console. What were their choices?

Boring doesn't mean crap. Boring means "missed opportunity to bring something really new to the table." I mean, really, the SGM is the best we've got, and it's good enough that it's a bullet point feature on the Phoenix. And really, that's very very sad. That after 38 years, the high tide of killer features is "a couple more sound channels and some extra memory." Where is the 50MHz CV with a 3.5MHz backwards compatible mode, that in fast mode is 16 bit with 16MB address space? It's not available to the programmers, because it seems you're not allowed to develop hardware unless you want to do the coding for it too. Which is fine. People can think that way. If I had reviewed my post before hitting send I might have edited the word "boring" to "uninspiring."

There are people here who think this is about software. That amuses me. I'm a competent programmer. I just do not enjoy programming, and prefer hardware. I like to make hardware that increases options for programmers. Programming is just not the best use of my time, resources, energy or finances. I'm porting CP/M 3 to the Adam (and CV by proxy). I don't need others for software. They may or may not need me for hardware. Which is their free choice. When the fuss and drama dies down, and the feelings are stated and priced in, I think what finally gets released will be of greater interest than the SGM and people 

I know some people will never accept this, but any expansion that moves forward has to be able to run Opcode's library and run Pixelboy's library, all with 100% compatibility. Any new console or expansion that omitted the basic and simple features to do that is dead before it begins. Any new product does at least need to have SGM functionality as a subset of its expanded functionality, since the CV has one expansion port and if you plug my thing into it you have to unplug Opcodes thing from it. It's a bit of a catch-22 isn't it. It's not my fault that half the market is split off and requires special hardware. What am I supposed to do? Just not support Opcode's games?

I was going to ask Ed about licensing terms, on the basis that it might be cheaper than my attorney's time, but he closed that door and told me quite clearly that we have nothing further to discuss. So here we are. Drama and people being offended on behalf of someone else. I've got a lot of hate mail and support mail - about 50/50, over all. It's just a tough situation all round.

If I had just said "I'm making some SGM clones. Who wants one?" I believe I would have faced the same drama and minions blowing up at me. Seems to be some sort of an MO as any time anyone tried to augment, improve on or in any way overlap anything of Eduardos, the response is fast, vicious and no holds barred.

I find it ironic that nobody from that camp has asked me why, what the deal is, how I got here. I'm not interested in the drama. I'm trying to focus on the good ideas and positive posts, and not replying at all to certain parties with their wild accusations.

I'm doing my best.

He made the right call when he told you beat it.  You emailed him your plans completely out of the blue and then you have the nerve to bitch that he has your plans that you sent him completely uninvited and out of the blue.  Now you are acting like a spurned lover and after posting that you would no longer respond to any of the drama.  I smell a gamma.