General upscaler thread

[cybercylon]

34 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Does the Framemeister actually do anything better than the RT5X? The only thing I can think of is that it's a flatter surface, so you can put stuff on it with less risk of it sliding off the top, which is totally not useful at all, but other than that...

 

It does has a D-terminal input, which pretty much everything else lacks, but I don't know how common D-terminal is outside of Japan. Even in Japan, it's not very common anymore. My company recently bought a new projector, and the projector has a few different types of input: composite (lol yes, seriously, composite), VGA/DB-15 (labelled コンピューター. Obviously, this means you are ONLY allowed to plug in a computer. If you plug your Dreamcast into it, YOU ARE GOING DIRECTLY TO HELL!!!! Or something), and HDMI. No D-terminal.

 

I guess that's pretty much it. It's slower than the RT5X or the OSSC, it's about the same price as both of those combined, it lacks YPbPr input, the colors are noticeably worse than the OSSC or the RT5X, which is something I noticed immediately when I tried Dreamcast S-video on my FM, CRT, and the RT5X, and I think there are some other things that it's worse at as well, but I don't remember. It's a good device, the best (only?) option of its time, and an excellent deinterlacer, which is something the OSSC is very weak at in addition to also lacking S-video and composite input, but most modern stuff has outclassed the FM in one way or another, and I am fairly certain that the RT5X is better at basically everything, but I'd have to check again unless someone wants to remind me.

There is an adapter that was sold separately to allow the D-terminal to use component input for something like the PS2, first gen Xbox, and GameCube if you have those cables.

 

I agree with your point about what happens with the colors compared with the OSSC. The the color bars are really crushed together with the 240p test suite on the framemeister, and while one can fiddle with it to make it somewhat better, the OSSC blows it away.

 

I don't have a retortik 5x to compare it with. I've considered getting one since the OSSC lacks AV and s-video inputs, and I'd like to be down to one device. Have to see how life events go in the next couple of months though. That might mean the 5x goes out of stock for a long time, but so be it.

[+KylJoy]

I can't stand the SCART connector orientation on the RT5X...  I am hopeful they will address that at some point.

[Bill Loguidice]

I have a RetroTink 5X and others, and I just find that everything I have just works the way I need it to on the Framemeister with little-to-no fiddling. For what I do, I'm just not sensitive to any of the supposed lag from the Framemeister. I do have to spend more time with the 5X.

[cybercylon]

Actually, my own lag with those kind of games is longer these days, which is why I don't play those kind of games anymore.

[Steven Pendleton]

44 minutes ago, glazball said:

According to Fudoh's review of the RT5X, it doesn't handle 480i input as well as the Framemeister.

 

For me, the RT5X does look really appealing but I'm not ready to give up my Framemeister yet.  I'm waiting for a RetroTink product that can also handle VGA input (for Dreamcast) and once that happens, it should be the final upscaler I will ever need.

There's this thing: https://rondoproducts.com/products/rondo-products-hd15-2-scart

14 minutes ago, cybercylon said:

There is an adapter that was sold separately to allow the D-terminal to use component input for something like the PS2, first gen Xbox, and GameCube if you have those cables.

 

I agree with your point about what happens with the colors compared with the OSSC. The the color bars are really crushed together with the 240p test suite on the framemeister, and while one can fiddle with it to make it somewhat better, the OSSC blows it away.

 

I don't have a retortik 5x to compare it with. I've considered getting one since the OSSC lacks AV and s-video inputs, and I'd like to be down to one device. Have to see how life events go in the next couple of months though. That might mean the 5x goes out of stock for a long time, but so be it.

Yeah, the colors are definitely not great on the Framemeister. It looked fine at first, but then I plugged my Dreamcast into my CRT and immediately noticed a huge difference. Not as huge of a difference as... I don't know, going from black and white to full color, but it was pretty close. I would highly recommend the RT5X if you don't have an OSSC or FM already, but the FM is still a good alternative if you already have one, especially for interlaced games, which the OSSC sucks at dealing with. I don't think it's worth buying one at this point in time, however.

[Greg2600]

Is there a profile peeps are using on the RT5X for old composite modded stuff (like Atari sys)?  Was fiddling with my 2600 the other day and it was really ghostly.

 

PS: I have the Rondo adapter for VGA and works great for Dreamcast.

[newtmonkey]

2 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Is there a profile peeps are using on the RT5X for old composite modded stuff (like Atari sys)?  Was fiddling with my 2600 the other day and it was really ghostly.

 

PS: I have the Rondo adapter for VGA and works great for Dreamcast.

I don't know if there's much that can be done with video mods, but you could try switching the Y/C Filter setting in the [SDTV Decoder] menu to "Notch," which can give a better (sharper) result for systems with nonstandard composite out.

 

Other than that, maybe trying the Consumer-2 scanline filter?  The might help hide some artifacts.

Edited April 21, 2022 by newtmonkey

[newtmonkey]

10 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I have a RetroTink 5X and others, and I just find that everything I have just works the way I need it to on the Framemeister with little-to-no fiddling. For what I do, I'm just not sensitive to any of the supposed lag from the Framemeister. I do have to spend more time with the 5X.

I'd definitely recommend spending some more time with the 5X.  I was a huge FM fan and the lag never bothered me, but the RT5X is just as easy to use and provides a better image out of the box than the FM.  There's really no need to clone the FM, because the RT5X is basically the new FM with more features, better image quality, and the same ease-of-use.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

11 hours ago, cybercylon said:

I don't have a retortik 5x to compare it with. I've considered getting one since the OSSC lacks AV and s-video inputs, and I'd like to be down to one device. Have to see how life events go in the next couple of months though. That might mean the 5x goes out of stock for a long time, but so be it.

Why not look at something to handle the analog stuff separately that can then be used with the OSSC? That is the route I went. I use an Extron 7SC for all of my composite, s-video, component, and VGA signals. It then converts all of them to a single VGA output signal I then run to the OSSC VGA input. This allows me to have up to 7 additional analog inputs I can switch to and still keep the OSSC for the scaling and conversion to HDMI back to the big screen.

 

[Steven Pendleton]

RT5X got a tasty new firmware update the other day that I didn't notice until now. Time to go look at what it does and try it.

[Reaperman]

As an FYI, I tried both of these vga-to-hdmi models, and they won't sync with dreamcast's oddball resolutions. They go black after the bootup screen--kind of a couple seconds into setting the clock.

 

A shame, since even if there's lag in the conversion, the one with the passthrough would still have a lot of promise for recording with a standalone hdmi capture solution. I'll probably still sync to my laptop collection or arcade cab, so I'll find some use for it, but I really wanted it for my DC.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Reaperman

[cybercylon]

I tried something similar once (VGA to HDMI) and it not go well. Thankfully, both of my sets get long with the OSSC. I know there are some games that won't work with that setup, but I am not likely to play those.

[newtmonkey]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:34 PM, Steven Pendleton said:

RT5X got a tasty new firmware update the other day that I didn't notice until now. Time to go look at what it does and try it.

Thanks for mentioning this.

 

A lot of stuff has been added, but probably the most important new features are:

• Support for 4K output (max 24/25 fps, or 30 with 60Hz lock on); maybe a good fit for some N64 games that run at <30 fps
• Support for 2560 x 1440 output, which might be more compatible than 1920 x 1440
• New minimum lag (~1 ms) 1080p mode
• Optimal timing modes available for composite and S-video sources
• Pre-emph filter now can be set down to -5 for extra blurry image quality lol
• Option to set a startup profile
• Remote button can now be held to increment/decrement values (no need to press it every single time anymore)

[Steven Pendleton]

3 hours ago, newtmonkey said:

Thanks for mentioning this.

 

A lot of stuff has been added, but probably the most important new features are:

• Support for 4K output (max 24/25 fps, or 30 with 60Hz lock on); maybe a good fit for some N64 games that run at <30 fps
• Support for 2560 x 1440 output, which might be more compatible than 1920 x 1440
• New minimum lag (~1 ms) 1080p mode
• Optimal timing modes available for composite and S-video sources
• Pre-emph filter now can be set down to -5 for extra blurry image quality lol
• Option to set a startup profile
• Remote button can now be held to increment/decrement values (no need to press it every single time anymore)

The new 1ms mode only works in frame lock, so be sure to set it there or you won't get 1ms of lag.

[Austin]

There's pretty much no reason to own a Framemeister now if you already have a Tink5X. That said, the Framemeister is still a solid unit, so people (like myself) that haven't upgraded yet shouldn't feel they need to.

 

Regarding features the FM has that the 5X does not, hm.. I'm not sure. Can the 5X output at 4x3 resolutions? That is one feature I want to try on the FM. It can actually output DVI through its HDMI port, and in this mode you can scale to 800x600, 1024x768, etc., ideal on old PC CRTs like the one I have. Upscaling to PC CRTs is why I still hold onto my XRGB-2 and 3 units, but the FM will undoubtedly do that better than either of those units, I just haven't gotten around to trying it yet.

[Greg2600]

7 hours ago, Austin said:

There's pretty much no reason to own a Framemeister now if you already have a Tink5X. That said, the Framemeister is still a solid unit, so people (like myself) that haven't upgraded yet shouldn't feel they need to.

Yeah no reason to upgrade much.  I was fine with my old DVDO iScan but the s.o.b. died on me.

On 4/21/2022 at 6:14 PM, Reaperman said:

As an FYI, I tried both of these vga-to-hdmi models, and they won't sync with dreamcast's oddball resolutions. They go black after the bootup screen--kind of a couple seconds into setting the clock.

 

A shame, since even if there's lag in the conversion, the one with the passthrough would still have a lot of promise for recording with a standalone hdmi capture solution. I'll probably still sync to my laptop collection or arcade cab, so I'll find some use for it, but I really wanted it for my DC.

Have you considered the GBS-C?  Takes VGA, outputs HDMI and does a really good job with it.  Also half the price as RT5x.

On 4/20/2022 at 11:16 PM, newtmonkey said:

I don't know if there's much that can be done with video mods, but you could try switching the Y/C Filter setting in the [SDTV Decoder] menu to "Notch," which can give a better (sharper) result for systems with nonstandard composite out.

 

Other than that, maybe trying the Consumer-2 scanline filter?  The might help hide some artifacts.

Thanks, probably right. 

[Austin]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:14 PM, Reaperman said:

As an FYI, I tried both of these vga-to-hdmi models, and they won't sync with dreamcast's oddball resolutions. They go black after the bootup screen--kind of a couple seconds into setting the clock.

 

A shame, since even if there's lag in the conversion, the one with the passthrough would still have a lot of promise for recording with a standalone hdmi capture solution. I'll probably still sync to my laptop collection or arcade cab, so I'll find some use for it, but I really wanted it for my DC.

You might want to look into an Extron RGB 300 (HDMI) scaler. I bought one just recently, primarily for retro PCs, and it's pretty much the best thing I've bought in a long time. They run $40 - $60 on the used market. They will take any VGA source from 320x200 and scale up to 1080p, as well as anything in between, and they play nice with oddball refresh rates too. Even when I'm switching resolutions constantly on my PCs, there are zero signal drops. The device should handle Dreamcast's VGA perfectly.

[Steven Pendleton]

I don't know much about old PCs, but the Dreamcast's VGA uses DTV, right? I know the OSSC handles that properly and it looks beautiful on my monitor aside from the typical Dreamcast VGA dithering.

[dudeguy]

Does anyone know of a solution for running unmodded consoles that only output RF onto an LCD/LED/OLED display? I'm not a fan of modding consoles and I know that most consoles pre-NES were RF-only. My HDTV does have an RF/coax input but the quality looks like crap. I've heard you can run your console to a VCR, the run the VCR (composite out) to an upscaler? That seems like it'd have a lot of input latency.

[Atariboy]

The VCR isn't going to add any lag. It can stabilize the image a bit on something like the Atari 2600, but if it looks awful via RF to your HDTV, ultimately it's going to still look awful as composite video via the VCR to your HDTV's composite input.

 

A quality upscaler built for the classic gaming market can help matters to a degree, especially if your tv does a lackluster job of handling standard definition resolutions on its own. It allows you to get around the infamous mishandling of 240p as 480i that so many HDTV's do, avoids the frequent occurrence of noticeable input lag when a HDTV upscaling chip deinterlaces 480i (Or what it mistakenly thinks is 480i), or the common fault of the HDTV simply not even recognizing the signal due to the sometimes strange resolutions and refresh rates that you'll run across (The Retrotink line of upscalers in particular seem to play nice with these off spec signals that you'll see out of things like some Atari 2600 games).

 

But ultimately it can't work wonders. If you feed even the best external upscaler a very low quality source, you're still going to end up with a result that you likely won't be pleased with. So ultimately if you want to best enjoy this era of gaming on a modern HDTV while using original hardware, you'll want to work towards getting your systems modified to at least output composite video directly. Better yet, go S-Video or RGB if available when selecting a video mod for a classic console.

 

There's a lot of good options these days for upgrading the video output of popular systems from this era and more are being worked on all the time. But if you're dead set against upgrades, you might want to reconsider playing these on your HDTV in the first place and instead acquire a CRT. Any operable CRT television in decent shape is going to be a good match for these early systems (You don't need a high end CRT for something like the Atari 2600/5200/7800 nor a huge one).

 

The only issue then is the prevalence of interference these days in urban areas that can really do a number on the video quality via RF compared to 30-40 years ago. But there's nothing you can do about that if you live in say a city, short of getting your systems modded to avoid RF entirely.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Atariboy

[newtmonkey]

I agree with everything @Atariboy said above, but would like to add that the Retrotink 2x Pro and Retrotink 5x have very decent notch/comb filters, which can clean up composite video very nicely.  I would recommend to @dudeguy to try connecting his systems using RF through a VCR, connected to a Retrotink set to notch filter, and see how that looks.

 

I don't have any RF-only systems, but I've been pleasantly surprised by composite video from the Famicom, PC Engine, and even the Mega Drive on both the Retrotink 2x Pro and Retrotink 5x.

[Steven Pendleton]

Is Neo Geo AES completely broken on the latest RT5X firmware for anyone else no matter what the settings are set to or just me? It works fine on my CRT, but not on the RT5X, so I know it's not the Neo Geo.

[dudeguy]

I dont recommend upgrading to the April 20th firmware update for the RetroTink 5X. My game keeps crashing after updating it. Not sure if it's the firmware or something else but I didn't have this problem before the update

[Atariboy]

I don't see how the upscaler could be at fault for a game crash. There's only one way communication for the audio/video ports of classic systems. Unlike modern HDMI sources, older consoles have no knowledge of what's going on downstream at your television, upscaler, switcher, receiver, etc. So there's no way that I can see for the Retrotink to have been responsible. 

 

I imagine it's a coincidence that this appears to have started after updating the Retrotink 5X's firmware and something else is responsible. Would be interesting though to hear back the results if you downgrade the firmware (Just because I'm dubious about it being responsible doesn't mean a heck of a lot since I'm no expert in such matters).

Edited May 2, 2022 by Atariboy

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

just how different is the updates from the stuff you get on it when you buy it?  also is the new format and features complicated?  are the new scanlines good?  I was kind of shocked how much I enjoy and like the scanlines on the rt5.