General upscaler thread

[Austin]

Wow, the Tink-4K will even have a VGA connector and will handle PC/MS-DOS stuff that runs at 70hz. As someone still rocking a Framemeister and a separate Extron device for retro PC stuff, this might be the magic-bullet, all-in-one solution I need. The, "Budget $1,000.... but expect to be pleasantly surprised," on the site makes me wonder what the end price is going to be.

[Ricdeau]

I'm personally thinking maybe $800 final price. The Pixel Morph 4k being $500, potentially half the price, isn't something I can just shrug off either. It should be a solid device, but the RetroTINK and Mike's constantly improving firmware is very good and has focus for these two devices.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Ricdeau

[glazball]

Wow thanks for the links.  I've been reading up on the Retrotink 5X as a replacement for my Framemeister, but I'm glad I haven't made the purchase since a 4K version if coming.  I see it has VGA in too, so this RT4K is a no-brainer for me.

[phoenixdownita]

On 8/4/2023 at 8:01 AM, Austin said:

Wow, the Tink-4K will even have a VGA connector and will handle PC/MS-DOS stuff that runs at 70hz. As someone still rocking a Framemeister and a separate Extron device for retro PC stuff, this might be the magic-bullet, all-in-one solution I need. The, "Budget $1,000.... but expect to be pleasantly surprised," on the site makes me wonder what the end price is going to be.

I read that too … but 1000$ (even 900) is too rich for me.

I do have an XRGB mini, a retro tink 2X-M with Scart2Comp transcoder (had I known the 5X was coming ….) and a retro tink 5X … enough for me.

 

As mentioned if the Pixel Morph delivers at less than half maybe that …

[pumaconcolor]

On 3/4/2023 at 10:37 AM, M-S said:

I forgot there was a thread specifically about upscalers, now I think it's better to ask here than the other subforums, which cable brands do you use for RGB/Component setups? The only high quality ones that I know are Retro Gaming Cables and HD Retrovision.

I haven't seen anyone mention Insurrection Industries.  I've got a few of their cables that work great for me.  Recently they introduced some S-video cables that I really like, and they've been making an effort to keep them in stock.

[Austin]

11 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

I read that too … but 1000$ (even 900) is too rich for me.

I do have an XRGB mini, a retro think 2X-M with Scart2Comp transcoder (had I known the 5X was coming ….) and a retro think 5X … enough for me.

 

As mentioned if the Pixel Morph delivers at less than half maybe that …

They list the price of the Pixel FX models on their site. $400 for the HDMI-only model, $500 for the analogue input model. Both have a slight discount further if you pre-order them early.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Austin

[Greg2600]

Why would the RetroTink 4K be substantially more expensive than the 5x Pro?  It's bigger, more connections, but really the FPGA cost is the only wild card. Pixel FX I see finally announced a release, although not really.  Their incredibly tardiness will be its undoing.  Mike Chi's team have been a truly remarkable model for the retro community.  I myself don't really need the 4K, but it's going to be the #1 for many, for sure. 

[phoenixdownita]

12 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

….

I myself don't really need the 4K, but it's going to be the #1 for many, for sure. 

“#1 for many” at a 1000$ price tag may redefine “many”.

Note that once you are in the 720p or 1080p digital domain, 4K and even 8K is integer scaling and it shouldn’t be bad by default on any set. Granted they will add tons of effects to simulate a crt much better but it may not justify the forecasted 3x surge in price vs the 5X (and yes it’s mostly the FPGA imho that impacts the final price).

 

The other thing I have no appreciation for is “plastic customization/custom coloring” … maybe once you pay 1000$ you appreciate that but it’s one of those things I shudder at.

 

I am in no rush, spent already enough as it is, if the XRGB mini had better resolution transition handling I would not have purchased anything else … the 2X-M was cheap enough to just try even if I should have waited for the 5X. I have only one 4K TV and never streamed/connected anything past 1080p (aka 2K).

[Atariboy]

I don't think too many will care for the customization. Few are going to get a kick out of replacing decent looking case components with ugly 3D printed aftermarket pieces. Someone will like it like the RetroRGB guy on YouTube that loves the look of 3D printed plastic, but most will stick with the stock plastic shell.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Atariboy

[Ricdeau]

RetroTINK-4K | RetroTINK

Shop page is up and Mike says orders will go live in December once he recieves product.

 

About to have a DVDO VP50, OSSC, and a RetroTink 5X to sell. I only use the 5X now anyway. I definitely need to get rid of all these extra scalers.

[glazball]

Looks like the asking price is $750.  Not chump change, but it would certainly be worth it.  This seems like a final solution for upscaling, at least for my uses.

[Ricdeau]

https://videogameperfection.com/products/ossc-pro/

 

OSSC Pro product page is up now too. Marqs said over the weekend it should go on sale this week. Not sure if sold out means sold out already or if it hasn't been up yet. I haven't been as interested in the OSSC Pro since it's closer to the RetroTink 5X and have my sights on the RetroTink 4k.

 

I haven't seen anything updated on the Morph which should land between the OSSC Pro and RetroTink 4k.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Ricdeau

[newtmonkey]

I know the RetroTINK-5x Pro is old news now in the constantly changing FOMO gameosphere of YouTube shills and hacks, but I've been fooling around with settings lately and wanted to put my notes up here.

• 1200p mode is a good option if your TV does not support 1440p, as it will fill the screen vertically (note that this also includes lines that are blank or contain garbage in systems prior to the PSX/Saturn, which can easily be cropped out).  The most important thing about 1200p mode, though, is that the aspect ratio might end up being completely wrong (way too wide) depending on whether your TV handles this as 1600x1200 or 1920x1200.  If things look too wide, I found that you can easily fix this by setting "H (Interp) Size" in the "Scaling/Cropping" menu to "-10%."  This will give you a perfect 4:3 image.
• No one gives a shit about 720p in 2024, but it's worth considering.  First, it's in some ways superior to the 1080p options, all of which have flaws (1080over cuts off way too much above and below the image, 1080under is way too tiny, and 1080fill can screw up scanline effects).  Second, even if 1200p or 1440p work on your TV, you might find the result to be way too sharp, even with scanlines on, etc.  For example, I've found that Mega Drive through RGB/S-Video set to 720p with "Pre-emph" in the ""Post-Proc." menu set to "-5" does a very decent job of approximating composite dithering and transparency, without having to deal with all the flaws of actual Mega Drive composite video.
• The RT5Xpro stores your settings for each output resolution, so you can actually create separate "sub-profiles" for each profile.  I have a 1200p and 720p profile set up for each console, for instance, because I go back and forth between wanting a sharper image and a more CRT-like softer image.

[phoenixdownita]

5 hours ago, newtmonkey said:

I know the RetroTINK-5x Pro is old news now in the constantly changing FOMO gameosphere of YouTube shills and hacks, but I've been fooling around with settings lately and wanted to put my notes up here.

• 1200p mode is a good option if your TV does not support 1440p, as it will fill the screen vertically (note that this also includes lines that are blank or contain garbage in systems prior to the PSX/Saturn, which can easily be cropped out).  The most important thing about 1200p mode, though, is that the aspect ratio might end up being completely wrong (way too wide) depending on whether your TV handles this as 1600x1200 or 1920x1200.  If things look too wide, I found that you can easily fix this by setting "H (Interp) Size" in the "Scaling/Cropping" menu to "-10%."  This will give you a perfect 4:3 image.
• No one gives a shit about 720p in 2024, but it's worth considering.  First, it's in some ways superior to the 1080p options, all of which have flaws (1080over cuts off way too much above and below the image, 1080under is way too tiny, and 1080fill can screw up scanline effects).  Second, even if 1200p or 1440p work on your TV, you might find the result to be way too sharp, even with scanlines on, etc.  For example, I've found that Mega Drive through RGB/S-Video set to 720p with "Pre-emph" in the ""Post-Proc." menu set to "-5" does a very decent job of approximating composite dithering and transparency, without having to deal with all the flaws of actual Mega Drive composite video.
• The RT5Xpro stores your settings for each output resolution, so you can actually create separate "sub-profiles" for each profile.  I have a 1200p and 720p profile set up for each console, for instance, because I go back and forth between wanting a sharper image and a more CRT-like softer image.

At least Mike kept improving fw until April of this year with version 3.94, alas none of them got promoted to prod:

https://retrotink-llc.github.io/firmware/5x-experimental.html

 

which fw version are you using ?

Latest prod ( non experimental) is 3.71 https://retrotink-llc.github.io/firmware/5x.html

Edited September 14 by phoenixdownita

[dudeguy]

yeah I refuse to get the Tink 4K because I spent a ton of money on the 5X Pro and barely got much action out of it. I have noticed that I need to shrink the NES picture down if I want to see 100% of the picture. Seems like the picture is vertically too large to fit in my TV screen. I need to play with the 240p test suite to see what I need for proper dimensions but I am wondering if I can just do -1% on both vertical and horizontal to retain proper aspect ratio. I'll have to measure the square at some point and see if it throws it out of whack if I do -1% on both V and H

[dudeguy]

5 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

At least Mike kept improving fw until April of this year with version 3.94, alas none of them got promoted to prod:

https://retrotink-llc.github.io/firmware/5x-experimental.html

 

which fw version are you using ?

Latest prod ( non experimental) is 3.71 https://retrotink-llc.github.io/firmware/5x.html

Im running 3.71. I see in one of the changelogs for an experimental update, they improved transitions between 240p and 480i. wonder what they mean by "experimental". is it gonna potentially brick my system or erase my profiles?

[phoenixdownita]

5 hours ago, dudeguy said:

Im running 3.71. I see in one of the changelogs for an experimental update, they improved transitions between 240p and 480i. wonder what they mean by "experimental". is it gonna potentially brick my system or erase my profiles?

From the exp fw page at the top:

 

Notice: Firmware updates erase saved profiles and reset the device to default settings.

 

THE FIRMWARE CONTAINED IN THIS DIRECTORY IS PRE-RELEASE. PROPER FUNCTIONALITY IS NOT GUARANTEED, AND FEATURES MAY STILL BE IN DEVELOPMENT.

 

 

I am in the latest version and it did not brick anything, but I don’t use profiles and recently haven’t used it much to tell what got better, I believe I was chasing down some issues with a Dreamcast svideo … can’t remember if it did anything.

Edited September 15 by phoenixdownita

[newtmonkey]

Some more RetroTINK-5x Pro musings

 

HDR injection

  I tried using this for a while (both HDR10 and HLG), but could not get it work satisfactorily on my TV (2017 LG OLED), with the RT running on the latest official FW and my TV calibrating using Disney WOW and some other calibration patterns.

  HDR10 is meant for use with scanlines, but the result is colors that are way too saturated on any setting other than PVM-600.  On the PVM-600 setting, the image 

really pops and has a CRT effect... but the "grille-bright" scanline mask combined with HDR10 injection blows out whites, hiding detail.

  HLG is meant for use without scanlines, and sure enough, the colors are not saturated at all in this mode.  However, it goes too far in that direction, giving the image an overall dull, murky look.  I've read suggestions to decrease "gamma" and increase "color" in the post processing menu, and this does help, but you lose the CRT pop of the HDR10 mode, so it's sort of useless.

  There's also a ton of conflicting information on the HDR implementation of the RT5xP and LG OLED TVs.  The RetroTINK site has barely any documentation or information on configuring the device (I'm guessing a lot of information is buried somewhere in the otherwise useless official Discord channel), so you're left to searching for bits and pieces of info on forums, YouTube videos, and the ConsoleMods Wiki.  And of course, the world of YouTube shills and streamers has already moved onto the next new thing (RetroTINK-4K) so no one gives a shit about the ancient technology of the RT5xP. 

  Anyway, HDR on the RT5xP is apparently sort of a "bonus" hack meant primarily to add some more brightness to the image to make up for brightness lost by the scanline filters... so is it even necessary?  Maybe not, thanks to the built-in ADC calibration tools...

Edited September 27 by newtmonkey

[newtmonkey]

ADC calibration

  The latest official FW for the RT5xP comes with a built-in tool to optimize the black level (contrast), white level (brightness), and color (chroma/hue).  There's no official documentation on this feature, and there's also some conflicting information out there, so it took a lot of research and trial and error to figure out what to do.  This is especially true if using composite or S-video, since everyone in the entire world uses RGB exclusively.

  Anyway, you need access to something like the 240p test suite with the SMPTE color bars pattern.  Here's what you do:

 

1. Turn and post processing effects (scanline filter) OFF.
2. Load up the SMPTE color bars and set them to 75% (they will be at 100% by default, which does not work).
3. Access the [SDTV Decoder] menu on the RT5xP.
4. Adjust "Brightness" until you just begin seeing blue interference in the black areas
5. Adjust "Contrast" until you just begin seeing pink interference in the gray bar on the far left
6. Go back and forth between "Brightness" and "Contrast" until the blue interference and pink interference are roughly the same in size/intensity, like so:
7. Access the [HDMI] menu on the RT5xP and turn "Blue Only" ON.
8. Go back to [SDTV Decoder] and adjust "Chroma" until the gray and blue bars are the same shade.
9. Adjust "Hue" until the cyan and magenta bars are the same shade.  Ultimately, every bar should be the same shade of blue when you're done:
10. Go back to [HDMI], turn "Blue Only" OFF.
11. Go back to [SDTV Decoder] and check that brightness and contrast are still okay.

Why go through all this for every single console you have?  It will ensure you are getting the maximum brightness and contrast from your console, without clipping in either direction.  This can make a MASSIVE difference, giving you a brighter image with richer colors and black blacks.