reifsnyderb Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, Allan said: Fantastic work on this! Thanks! 16 minutes ago, Allan said: Question: Since the Compatibility board only adds the ability to use 1090 memory expansion boards with the 130XE and 800XE (please correct me if I am wrong here) and it takes up an expansion slot, would it be possible to add some additional functionality to this board? A bigger board, with more functionality, could always be made. What do you have in mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Allan Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: Thanks! A bigger board, with more functionality, could always be made. What do you have in mind? Not anything in particular. Just that since there are limited number of slots, it would be a shame to use up one slot just to make a memory expansion card usable with a 130XE/800XE. I guess it would have to be something that did not require a lot of real estate on a board. My knowledge of electronics is terrible so I wouldn't even know what that would be. Maybe a 'modern' controller (joystick) interface or a USB interface. Or maybe a Atari 850 type device. There is a USB interface cartridge designed years ago but the lack of drivers written for it didn't help it catch on. I think I still have it somewhere here. The point I guess is that by having the card do more than one function, people wouldn't be as bothered with using up a slot for it and not mind buying an extra card for the 1090, especially if it was something most people would use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 56 minutes ago, Allan said: Not anything in particular. Just that since there are limited number of slots, it would be a shame to use up one slot just to make a memory expansion card usable with a 130XE/800XE. I guess it would have to be something that did not require a lot of real estate on a board. My knowledge of electronics is terrible so I wouldn't even know what that would be. Maybe a 'modern' controller (joystick) interface or a USB interface. Or maybe a Atari 850 type device. There is a USB interface cartridge designed years ago but the lack of drivers written for it didn't help it catch on. I think I still have it somewhere here. The point I guess is that by having the card do more than one function, people wouldn't be as bothered with using up a slot for it and not mind buying an extra card for the 1090, especially if it was something most people would use. The USB cartridge is still available through Atarimax and Abbuc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 13 minutes ago, Allan said: Not anything in particular. Just that since there are limited number of slots, it would be a shame to use up one slot just to make a memory expansion card usable with a 130XE/800XE. I guess it would have to be something that did not require a lot of real estate on a board. My knowledge of electronics is terrible so I wouldn't even know what that would be. Maybe a 'modern' controller (joystick) interface or a USB interface. Or maybe a Atari 850 type device. There is a USB interface cartridge designed years ago but the lack of drivers written for it didn't help it catch on. I think I still have it somewhere here. The point I guess is that by having the card do more than one function, people wouldn't be as bothered with using up a slot for it and not mind buying an extra card for the 1090, especially if it was something most people would use. Probably the simple solution would be to combine the compatibility card with the memory card. I did consider this but it creates somewhat of an economic problem. The problem is cost and economics of scale. Realistically, since the memory cards won't be sold in large numbers the cost can't be dropped to something in-line with what what is "normal" in a world where you can get gigabytes worth of storage on a $20 USB key. Realistically, unless the time is donated, a 320k memory card costs around $75 each. This is based on the normal business practice of pricing something 3 to 4 times the material cost. ($75 is about 3 times the total cost of the parts.) In this example, a 320k memory card has about a dozen chips as well as a bunch of capacitors and some resistors. So, if a compatibility card were to be combined with a memory card, it's price would be around $100 and those with XL's would be paying for something they don't need. Creating a combined memory card would also result in excess inventory for whoever is making the cards. The compatibility card can also be eliminated if the XE has a wire connected from the MMU to pin A of the ECI. For people who can solder, and don't mind modifying their machine, this is a cheap fix. But there are many for which either (and understandably) don't want to modify their machines and/or can't solder. So the compatibility card is a solution. The need for such a compatibility card, in my opinion, is also absolutely ridiculous. All it does it re-create the /EXTENB signal the XL's provided but that Atari, for reasons I cannot explain, completely omitted. But that is probably the topic of another thread. lol So, anyhow, those are my thoughts as to the issues involved with combining the cards. My thoughts on other 1090 cards: Since there are 5 slots available, using 2 slots for a memory upgrade is, admittedly, wasteful. However, we do have a serious problems here. What do we put in the other 3 slots? Presently there is an 80 column card that has been re-made. Other than that, nothing really. I do have a card for a numeric keypad I need to finish. Given the number of chips and time involved, that's probably a $50 card...just to connect the numeric keypad without using a joystick port. (I've also been dragging my feet on this card because I need a good way to troubleshoot it and I am not an assembly language programmer.) So, 1090 cards are expensive. Even a cheaper version of the 80 column card, using as many modern components as possible (to reduce the cost) and considering a normal markup of 3 times the cost, would be well over $120. (I was looking into using the original components to make an 80 column card and the one chip was $30 while the modern replacement was $3. So creating 80 column boards with original components would be horribly expensive.) Other card ideas could include a USB interface, as you suggest. Probably the easiest USB interface would be to integrate a 1090 card with an off-the-shelf microcontroller that supports USB. Many other cards could be created for the 1090. 1090 cards are, admittedly, complicated devices. This is a big reason why I have released my document regarding the parallel port as I have already had bad boards made based on wrong information and hope that having such a document available will encourage others to support and develop for this amazing upgrade to the Atari computers. (I also released my schematic for the 320k memory card so as to show others how to interface memory cards with the 1090.) Other ideas for 1090 cards could include Fujinet, a print spooler (with memory), SD card "disk drive", real-time clock, etc. All require developers. I have a theory that a 1090 could handle an Axlon compatible 4MB memory upgrade if PORTB is interrogated to ensure that $CFFF is only available and the Axlon banks are only available under the right conditions. (i.e. The OS ROM is enabled and PORTB banking is turned off.) This would bring the XL's and XE's up to the memory capabilities of the Atari 800. So, there's lots of ideas. But putting them into practice is another issue. Maybe a question should be posed as to what people would most desire to have in a 1090 card? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goochman Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 Was there a CP/M and MS-DOS card? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 17 minutes ago, Goochman said: Was there a CP/M and MS-DOS card? There was, at least, a plan for a Z80 card. I believe the intent was to run CP/M. The Z80 card appears to be designed to use one (or more) of Atari's 1066 RAM boards for it's memory. But I didn't find any clues as to how everything was to have supposed to work. Maybe there was a design document made but I didn't find it on the internet archive of the atari museum website. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) header across the top of the card too, not just the backplane for signal on the aux computation cards... might want to check into that Edited December 21, 2022 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: header across the top of the card too, not just the backplane for signal on the aux computation cards... might want to check into that I looked at that 40 pin header and I believe it's to be connected to the 40 pin header on the top of the RAM card(s) (via a ribbon cable?) for the Z80 to use that memory for itself. (The attached schematic is for a 1066 and shows a compatible 40 pin connector.) But there really isn't any information on this. I would assume that the Z-80 would have some sort of boot loader, OS ROM, BIOS, etc. as well. There is no clue as to how that would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 yes, it was a ribbon cable and no one says we can't do a companion enhanced header in additions to the primary, that can keep compatibility pins and headers are cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: yes, it was a ribbon cable and no one says we can't do a companion enhanced header in additions to the primary, that can keep compatibility pins and headers are cheap It can be made, no problem. But without knowing what it was supposed to do we have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 another case for tracing it out with the few cards available or schematics for. Curt was to have some more info, and the cyber roach might have had something to share years ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark2008 Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 4 hours ago, reifsnyderb said: Maybe a question should be posed as to what people would most desire to have in a 1090 card? well I'm sure I probably weighed in before, but I'm just always desiring to have the ultimate Atari, which for me is an Atari with a hard drive, upgraded memory, 80 columns, an accelerator, spartados x, wi-fi, and mechanical keyboard. Not that I watch the thread assuming the 1090 would provide those things, but I find interesting the 1090 for what solutions to that it may provide someday There are quite a few paths to upgraded memory without soldering such as avg cart, syscheck, zaxon upgrades, or 130xe, however a battery backed 16mb sized ram card, if it survives power offs, I'd probably consider it to be a hard drive solution. Or just that sd card option you mentioned would probably put the 1090 on a must buy list, for me. because, at least today, 'hard drives' (avg cart/side/ultimate) are cartridges that take the cartridge port - I want my cartridge port free for a rom. A rom that might access my pbi hard drive. Also the fujinet is sio based, as far as I know - a speed limiter. If there were a pbi based one, that was faster, that'd be popular, imho. all my atari's have bad keybaords, even the one with an AHI USB installed, since that essentially doesn't map necessary keys, and its just sold as if it works, but it really doesn't. well, if playing a game that doesn't need those keys, but for programming I think I need those keys, lol. So a keyboard card, that doesn't require soldering, if that's possible, that would be unique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenames99 Posted December 21, 2022 Author Share Posted December 21, 2022 hi, clausb actually did an update on the 1066 memory card to use 256K RAM chips instead of the 64K. with his permission I put that updated schematic in the github reo at https://github.com/kenames99/1066. feel free to go check it out. Ken 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, kenames99 said: hi, clausb actually did an update on the 1066 memory card to use 256K RAM chips instead of the 64K. with his permission I put that updated schematic in the github reo at https://github.com/kenames99/1066. feel free to go check it out. Ken I'll have to take a look. Is banking still performed via $D1FE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Mark2008 said: well I'm sure I probably weighed in before, but I'm just always desiring to have the ultimate Atari, which for me is an Atari with a hard drive, upgraded memory, 80 columns, an accelerator, spartados x, wi-fi, and mechanical keyboard. Not that I watch the thread assuming the 1090 would provide those things, but I find interesting the 1090 for what solutions to that it may provide someday There are quite a few paths to upgraded memory without soldering such as avg cart, syscheck, zaxon upgrades, or 130xe, however a battery backed 16mb sized ram card, if it survives power offs, I'd probably consider it to be a hard drive solution. Or just that sd card option you mentioned would probably put the 1090 on a must buy list, for me. because, at least today, 'hard drives' (avg cart/side/ultimate) are cartridges that take the cartridge port - I want my cartridge port free for a rom. A rom that might access my pbi hard drive. Also the fujinet is sio based, as far as I know - a speed limiter. If there were a pbi based one, that was faster, that'd be popular, imho. all my atari's have bad keybaords, even the one with an AHI USB installed, since that essentially doesn't map necessary keys, and its just sold as if it works, but it really doesn't. well, if playing a game that doesn't need those keys, but for programming I think I need those keys, lol. So a keyboard card, that doesn't require soldering, if that's possible, that would be unique. Sounds like a nice list. Thanks! A keyboard card is a good idea, too. It's quite possible to tie a 1090 card to a micro controller...which would allow for a lot of options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenames99 Posted December 21, 2022 Author Share Posted December 21, 2022 24 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: I'll have to take a look. Is banking still performed via $D1FE? it is still the 1066 just with 256K rams, nothing else changed. I do not know if the 1066 supports banking or not but I doubt that it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenames99 Posted December 21, 2022 Author Share Posted December 21, 2022 19 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: Sounds like a nice list. Thanks! A keyboard card is a good idea, too. It's quite possible to tie a 1090 card to a micro controller...which would allow for a lot of options. a microcontroller that supports usb 1.0 or 1.1 thru 2.0 would allow atari to communicate with a multitude of devices. the only limiting factor is drivers to talk to each device. I wrote a driver from scratch for the older usb cart that talked to keyboards, a fair lot more then the original kbd driver did. I did not care for the usb cart though as it used ram at memlo for drivers. so I tucked that cart away in my drawer of carts. anyway, a microcontroller with a usb stack resident would offload a lot of work, would mostly need an API to talk between atari and said controller. very do-able these days I think. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) simplification of the Ataris needs from the devices on that middleboard can keep the load off the Atari as well, the Smart Device Board approach. Looks like Ken covered that... Edited December 21, 2022 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted December 21, 2022 Share Posted December 21, 2022 I just checked and the Teensy 3.5 micro controllers are out of stock. The Teensy 3.5's will handle 5 volt I/O and would add a lot of capability. The 4.0's and 4.1's are mainly 3.3 volt and would require level shifting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted December 22, 2022 Share Posted December 22, 2022 Hello Brian 8 hours ago, reifsnyderb said: The need for such a compatibility card, in my opinion, is also absolutely ridiculous. All it does it re-create the /EXTENB signal the XL's provided but that Atari, for reasons I cannot explain, completely omitted. How big is the compatibility card? How big does it need to be? 8 hours ago, reifsnyderb said: Other ideas for 1090 cards could include Fujinet, a print spooler (with memory), SD card "disk drive", real-time clock, etc. All require developers. Why not use an atomic clock decoder? Sincerely Mathy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted December 22, 2022 Share Posted December 22, 2022 (edited) Ham Radio Card! WEFAX! etc etc. WEB/Browser pre-processor dumping to shared ANTIC video memory etc etc. Edited December 22, 2022 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted December 22, 2022 Share Posted December 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Mathy said: Hello Brian How big is the compatibility card? How big does it need to be? It's about 3 inches by 2 inches. It doesn't need to be big. It could be even smaller when CPLD's become available again. 1 hour ago, Mathy said: Why not use an atomic clock decoder? It's possible, of course. Whatever interface is used should probably be compatible with legacy real time clock API's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 Hello Brian 23 hours ago, reifsnyderb said: It's about 3 inches by 2 inches. It doesn't need to be big. It could be even smaller when CPLD's become available again. That's probably a little bit too big to plug the compatibility card into the RAM card or vice versa... Sincerely Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 On 12/21/2022 at 6:33 PM, Mathy said: Why not use an atomic clock decoder? Reception is highly variable, and they'd only be useful in certain parts of the continental US and Pacific. Note that I'm saying that as someone who likes both atomic clocks and the idea. Granted, this won't necessarily solve the reception issue, but a GPS (and/or Galileo, GLONASS, etc.) receiver could do the same thing. It would also prevent it from being as region-specific as the atomic clock, and would add positioning as a bonus. Could be handy to be able to poll that info for running weather stations, APRS, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted December 24, 2022 Share Posted December 24, 2022 Hello x=usr(1536) GPS would be even better. But atomic clocks are used all over the world. If I'm correctly informed, there are three standards that together span the world. And chips are available that support all three. Sincerely Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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