Mazzspeed Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, carlsson said: Yes, but the CoCo3 also dates to 1986 so released after the 130XE & C128, actually time wise more on par with the ST and Amiga lines. Clearly a design from 1980, based on hardware from 1978 didn't still cut the mustard by then so Tandy had to do something: massive upgrade or retire the 8-bit series. Actually it seems that was a busy year for Tandy, besides the CoCo3 they also released 1000EX, 1000SX (both 8088 based) and 1000TX (80286) in 1986. However at price tags of $1000 and upwards, while being affordable for being PC compatibles it was big money compared to the $220 CoCo3 and all its 8-bit competitors at the time. No doubt, back in the day the CoCo3 was too little too late. But these days it's actually quite a special little 8bit machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 I can't help comparing with what Fujitsu did on the 6809 front over in Japan with their FM-7 and even more FM-77 series, though of course those easily cost 3-4 times as much as the CoCo series did so yet again price wise more in line with the 16-bits. For that matter, the first MSX2 computers also were released in 1986, just in case Tandy had gone with the TI VDP route already in 1982-83 and tagged along with making the world's only (?) computer with 6809 + 9939 plus some nice sound chip having PSG + FM sound. Then again the CoCo3 honestly is more of an upgrade than the BBC Master was to the BBC Micro line. In the later case I've owned both and to most part the Master seems mostly like a regular Beeb with built-in memory expansion, even less enhanced than the 130XE is over the 800XL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, carlsson said: Then again the CoCo3 honestly is more of an upgrade than the BBC Master was to the BBC Micro line. In the later case I've owned both and to most part the Master seems mostly like a regular Beeb with built-in memory expansion, even less enhanced than the 130XE is over the 800XL. I love Beeb's, ever since we had an entire school full of them connected via Econet I've loved them. Totally agreed re: The Master 128. However, given a choice I'd probably still grab one over a BBC Model B 32k. However, if the BBC Model B 32k was the right price, I'd still be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Just like with nearly everything else vintage computing related, prices have accelerated lately so I was able to sell off both my Master 128 and my Master Compact for quite a bit more than I once paid for them. At one point I even had a spare Model B which I sold off cheap to someone very excited for it, until he lost interest shortly after and more or less donated it to someone in his turn. ? Not that I want market prices to stay high, but there were other people interested in buying it, who probably would valued it a prized possession for longer. Now I'm down to my last Model B plus an Electron on that frontier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) 35 minutes ago, carlsson said: Just like with nearly everything else vintage computing related, prices have accelerated lately so I was able to sell off both my Master 128 and my Master Compact for quite a bit more than I once paid for them. At one point I even had a spare Model B which I sold off cheap to someone very excited for it, until he lost interest shortly after and more or less donated it to someone in his turn. ? Not that I want market prices to stay high, but there were other people interested in buying it, who probably would valued it a prized possession for longer. Now I'm down to my last Model B plus an Electron on that frontier. They're worth a fortune now (like everything else). I've never actually seen a Master Compact in real life, but based on what I've seen in images I really want one! However, I think this little 600XL is gonna keep me entertained for a while. Perhaps a Beeb can be the next project. Edited March 25, 2021 by Mazzspeed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Multi machine happiness, music to my ears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 16 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: Some of them are now doing work on both 64 and Atari... and that's awesome stuff. Here we are at a splitting point again. C64 Sprite pushers never will be able to create optimized Atari games . Why do people always forget about that fact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 minute ago, emkay said: Here we are at a splitting point again. C64 Sprite pushers never will be able to create optimized Atari games . Why do people always forget about that fact? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 minute ago, x=usr(1536) said: That doesn't change a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, emkay said: That doesn't change a thing. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said: That's more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Sigh. These threads really always seem to benefit greatly from going off-topic. @carlsson, @Mazzspeed, please, do continue. Myself, I was considering a BBC recently, but now can't afford to "import" anything from UK, what ith the new VAT & Covid prices. There is however a resonably priced MSX around in my neck of woods...hmmm. Thing is, a flashcart for it costs nearly as much as the damn thing. Anybody konws if I can use a TZXDuino type thing with an MSX? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, youxia said: Sigh. These threads really always seem to benefit greatly from going off-topic. @carlsson, @Mazzspeed, please, do continue. Myself, I was considering a BBC recently, but now can't afford to "import" anything from UK, what ith the new VAT & Covid prices. There is however a resonably priced MSX around in my neck of woods...hmmm. Thing is, a flashcart for it costs nearly as much as the damn thing. Anybody konws if I can use a TZXDuino type thing with an MSX? Post #103 and #104 have nothing to do with the thread at all. So why is it needed to be still offtopic. It's about Atari AND C64 stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 24 minutes ago, emkay said: C64 Sprite pushers never will be able to create optimized Atari games . Because of tedious, divisive, and redundant rubbish like this. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 minute ago, youxia said: Because of tedious, divisive, and redundant rubbish like this. I which other words, you would understand it? There exist 100s of technical explanations, not been understand. At least your quote contains words you understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Yeah, we deranged from the Atari vs Commodore topic by making jokes about the Commodore 800XL and the CoCo/4A, which in its turn inspired the discussion onto new grounds. I understand that die-hard Atari fans are completely indifferent to anything besides the own brand and the most immediate competitors, and besides the original YouTube video posted didn't try to take an overall view on the home computer market but shot directly at fueling the Atari - Commodore war. Thus if the intention of this thread is to discuss the video content, which already has been criticized for its plus and minus, we could just as well close the thread soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, carlsson said: Yeah, we deranged from the Atari vs Commodore topic by making jokes about the Commodore 800XL and the CoCo/4A, which in its turn inspired the discussion onto new grounds. I understand that die-hard Atari fans are completely indifferent to anything besides the own brand and the most immediate competitors, and besides the original YouTube video posted didn't try to take an overall view on the home computer market but shot directly at fueling the Atari - Commodore war. Thus if the intention of this thread is to discuss the video content, which already has been criticized for its plus and minus, we could just as well close the thread soon enough. No problem about fun and jokes. But things get really weird, if someone points to a relevant part, and THEN getting claimed to get offtopic. "Sigh. These threads really always seem to benefit greatly from going off-topic. @carlsson, @Mazzspeed, please, do continue." simply unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Personally I'm not sure which of the seasoned C64 developers are "done" with it and look out for new systems like e.g. the Atari 8-bit. I keep seeing new C64 productions reaching one milestone after another, more than enough action going on in that scene (which some people apparently are having trouble identifying, assuming the C64 is dead because they don't know where to look for stuff) for a mass migration to something else. Yes, there are a few trying new formats but more for variation than boredom. Also I'm not quite updated on the topic of why one shouldn't use undocumented opcodes, if those work worse on Atari systems than other 6502 based machines, or if it is a matter of orthodox principles where Atari folks want to be pure to the specs and not abuse the hardware to obtain the desired results. In that case, I doubt that many of the top C64 programmers ever will look at the Atari 8-bit as an alternative system if they're not supposed to cram the max out of the hardware by taking shortcuts and come up with new ways of addressing it, but are supposed to stay with what was known about how to program it in 1985. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, emkay said: simply unbelievable. What's unbelievable is that you seem to lack basic English comprehension and yet continue to spam these threads talking to yourself. My point was that I'd much rather read the off-topic stuff than yet another 20 page tirade about some perceived, minuscule hardware differences, which you are mostly confused about, and which don't change the basic truth that (at least back in the day) they were plenty of skilled coders capable of coding for different platforms. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 49 minutes ago, carlsson said: Yes, there are a few trying new formats but more for variation than boredom. I actually went the opposite way last Lovebyte compo, and made a few C64 entries 49 minutes ago, carlsson said: Also I'm not quite updated on the topic of why one shouldn't use undocumented opcodes, if those work worse on Atari systems than other 6502 based machines, or if it is a matter of orthodox principles where Atari folks want to be pure to the specs and not abuse the hardware to obtain the desired results. In that case, I doubt that many of the top C64 programmers ever will look at the Atari 8-bit as an alternative system if they're not supposed to cram the max out of the hardware by taking shortcuts and come up with new ways of addressing it, but are supposed to stay with what was known about how to program it in 1985. Only a few people are complaining some software doesn't work on their non-standard CMOS 65C02 or 65C816. Always the same people. Ignore them. If your hardware is non-standard, perfectly fine NMOS 6502 code will sometimes not work. I got thanked for not using undefined opcodes in AtariSid 6, but if that would have improved performance, I would have used them 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Aha! So people are modding their computers with custom hardware, and expect that software will support it or at least not utilize features that the custom hardware doesn't support. For that matter, doesn't the 65C02 implement new instructions that the old 6502 doesn't do? It means that software that embraces the custom hardware on the other hand wouldn't work with stock machines, which more commonly would be a problem IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 19 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: The Commodore scene is far from dying out, it's still very active with new hardware/software being released all the time. Gideon's (the maker of the Ultimate 64 and the 1541UII+) FB page is quite busy, with Gideon constantly releasing improvements for his devices via firmware updates, and Particles BBS is flat chat with Commodore users (actually, users of all sorts, as most 8bit platforms have their own sub forum). Don't connect to Particles for one day and you come back to nearly 20 messages. There's also development in the works of a FPGA VIC-II with a huge colour palette and a well implemented hardware 80 column mode (possibly even more graphics modes). I've been looking for C64 homebrew, and I found some, but nothing like the quantity I see for Atari. Obvously AtariAge seems to be a hub for these developments, is there a similar hub in the C64 world? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 Perhaps Lemon64 - New Releases respective CSDb? To some extent, I suppose a site like RGCD might be relevant too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuxon86 Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 42 minutes ago, zzip said: I've been looking for C64 homebrew, and I found some, but nothing like the quantity I see for Atari. Obvously AtariAge seems to be a hub for these developments, is there a similar hub in the C64 world? IMHO, I think a big part of the work on the C64 is being done on demo more than games per se these days. Not saying there isn't any here, but the SID is so fun to play with. I had both back in the day side by side as I do now. I did use the C64 more as a game playing machine and the 130XE more as a programming machine since I also had a printer on the Atari and had less trouble with Atari Basic than with the CBM one. This always has been a silly fight to have. They were different and neither was superior to the other in the hand of competant coders. Me, I don't have a team. I enjoy both and I do my best to help preserve them. I'm trying my best to get back into 65xx Assembler and to learn both system the best I can. If I ever publish anything I'll try to support both. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 (edited) Greatest 25 PCs of all time: https://www.pcworld.com/article/126692/greatest_pcs_of_all_time.html By: Innovation: Did the PC do anything that was genuinely new? Did it incorporate the latest technology? Impact: Was it widely imitated? Did it become part of the cultural zeitgeist? Industrial design: Was it a looker? Did it have clever features that made using it a pleasure? Intangibles: Was there anything else about it that set it apart from the same ol' same ol'? Enjoy! Edited March 25, 2021 by Faicuai 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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