The real fight Atari versus Commodore

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, Faicuai said:

At the desktop, basically no one gives a flying f_k for Linux and its incoherent genealogy.

I've been using Linux Mint for the last decade, and have run a Virtual Boxed Windows for those programs I absolutely need Windows for (mainly PCB development). I gave up on Windows when I was constantly having to worry and deal with malware and viruses getting in. Now days something like Linux Mint or many other equally good or better distributions, can have the look and feel of Windows or a Mac. Using Linux versions of Firefox, Chromium, Libre Office, Thunderbird, ect. gives you all the normally used apps and cross compatible document handling that most people need. And this will only continue to get better.

 

There are likely quite a few Linux users on this forum, so I wouldn't lump everyone into your "flying f_k" sentiment . It's actually kinda insulting and rude presumptuous to say the least. And bottom line as it was pointed out earlier, totally off topic.

Edited March 27, 2021 by mytek
I corrected something to better express my thought

[+x=usr(1536)]

Quick recap of the thread so far:

 

[Faicuai]

17 minutes ago, mytek said:

It's actually kinda insulting and rude to say the least

I hope a (personal) choice of OS does not transform and scale itself into another C64-style emotional drama-queen.

 

A commercial reality is what it is. And we may like it or not. And that´s about it.

 

I honestly could care less about the perception. I only care about what is out there, what it truly looks like. I only hear a LOT more folks paying attention to Apple OS, besides Windows, at the Desktop level.

 

Sorry if I don't sound conforting and cushy, though. I do not have to.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Faicuai

[+CharlieChaplin]

6 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Quick recap of the thread so far:

 

 

No, that's welcome to the t*ts show...  

 

[youxia]

@x=usr(1536)Hell yeah. But, then, let's admit it: forum life would be a little bit dour without these happening now and then

[Tuxon86]

Hey, this thread has the merit of having me inaugurate my ignore list with its first entry... There’s that at least.

[Faicuai]

57 minutes ago, thorfdbg said:

If you need a professional system, Windows has a couple of serious problems

The problems that MATTER are the ones that affect the Desktop user experience (office, productivity. etc.). The desktop IS NOT the data center. The LINUX realm seems to be having issues with this fundamental notion, especially when exalting the "intrinsic" virtues and merits of their OS "religion".

 

I would also (strongly) suggest to contact the author of y-cruncher and report your (trascendental) findings (if related). If anyone wants to see what heavy computing is, that is a good place to check out, for sure.

 

I am honestly fine either way.

[ivop]

35 minutes ago, mytek said:

There are likely quite a few Linux users on this forum, so I wouldn't lump everyone into your "flying f_k" sentiment .

Yes. I'm one of them. Using Linux since 1995. Stack of Slackware floppies FTW Now on debian mostly, and devuan for lower end machines.

 

35 minutes ago, mytek said:

It's actually kinda insulting and rude presumptuous to say the least. And bottom line as it was pointed out earlier, totally off topic.

Well, Windows vs MacOS vs GNU/Linux, or iOS vs Android/Linux, are the new Commodore vs Atari vs Spectrum "wars"

[emkay]

6 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

The problems that MATTER are the ones that affect the Desktop user experience (office, productivity. etc.). The desktop IS NOT the data center. The LINUX realm seems to be having issues with this fundamental notion, especially when exalting the "intrinsic" virtues and merits of their OS "religion".

 

I would also (strongly) suggest to contact the author of y-cruncher and report your (trascendental) findings (if related). If anyone wants to see what heavy computing is, that is a good place to check out, for sure.

 

I am honestly fine either way.

It's not helpful to discuss this in this forums.

Let's get back to the topic. 

[Faicuai]

7 minutes ago, ivop said:

Well, Windows vs MacOS vs GNU/Linux, or iOS vs Android/Linux, are the new Commodore vs Atari vs Spectrum "wars"

 

Precisely. Appears to be a very emotional topic, in both cases.

[+x=usr(1536)]

BeOS 4lyf, yo!

*raises two middle fingers and runs off cackling into the sunset*

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, CharlieChaplin said:

 

No, that's welcome to the t*ts show...  

 

Through metaphorical eyes:

 

Linux:

 

 

Windows.

 

Apple:

 

 

Free to choose!

 

(Much harder to come up with such metaphorical description for the topic on hand...)

[+Stephen]

Well, that's the quickest I've ever wanted to switch to Linux!

[sack-c0s]

3 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

BeOS 4lyf, yo!

*raises two middle fingers and runs off cackling into the sunset*

that's not how you spell RISC OS

 

[emkay]

2 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Through metaphorical eyes:

 

...

(Much harder to come up with such metaphorical description for the topic on hand...)

Judging on the 3 images, I'd still chose "Windows" as it looks like a challenge for a lifetime

 

"Linux" will soon be blown by the wind and fly over the rail, eaten by sharks without a real defense.

 

an "Apple" gets old in some months

[Faicuai]

And just for a bit of fun, and a sincere effort to bring this (bizarre) main topic back in focus. here's how it may look:

 

IBM:

 

Atari / Colleen:

 

C64:

 

??

 

Choose wisely!

 

 

[Mazzspeed]

4 hours ago, Faicuai said:

The problems that MATTER are the ones that affect the Desktop user experience (office, productivity. etc.). The desktop IS NOT the data center. The LINUX realm seems to be having issues with this fundamental notion, especially when exalting the "intrinsic" virtues and merits of their OS "religion".

 

I would also (strongly) suggest to contact the author of y-cruncher and report your (trascendental) findings (if related). If anyone wants to see what heavy computing is, that is a good place to check out, for sure.

 

I am honestly fine either way.

Rubbish.

 

I use desktop Linux ever single day across a multitude of devices and my experience isn't buggy, it isn't limited, and I see no intrinsic issues regarding the religion of my OS (whatever that means).

 

What I do see is users with no clue what they're ranting on about, whether that be C64 or Linux, spewing hyperbole like it's fact. When I see that, as someone that knows better I'm going to correct you - If you take that personally, than you're the drama queen here.

 

Another example highlighting the Windows NUMA issue: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15483/amd-threadripper-3990x-review/3

 

Claiming that Linux has some inherent issue regarding NUMA and it's scheduler on a benchmark obviously designed for Windows in the first place makes no sense whatsoever when the worlds supercomputers (massively parallel devices) all run Linux.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[Mrarkus]

This has been the best Commodore vs Atari thread so far. Faicuai, you have found the closest representation to how I see Colleen, my hat off to you!

 

As far as modern Desktop OSes, I have to say, I hate where we are these days. Windows is getting less and less love from MS, and it shows, Apple is taking Mac OS in the direction that I can't follow, and Linux is fun for experimenting, and for specific use cases. Overall, I think it's a mess. I spend most of my professional time in R, Python and legacy SAS stuff, and have major issues with my home Mac and Linux set ups as well as work Dell workstation with Windows setups. Maybe I'm just getting old...

[Mazzspeed]

1 minute ago, Mrarkus said:

As far as modern Desktop OSes, I have to say, I hate where we are these days. Windows is getting less and less love from MS, and it shows, Apple is taking Mac OS in the direction that I can't follow, and Linux is fun for experimenting, and for specific use cases. Overall, I think it's a mess. I spend most of my professional time in R, Python and legacy SAS stuff, and have major issues with my home Mac and Linux set ups as well as work Dell workstation with Windows setups. Maybe I'm just getting old...

[Looks for a mess on both his Pi400 and Dell workstation]...

 

Respectfully, where's the mess?

[Faicuai]

27 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

What I do see is users with no clue what they're ranting on about, whether that be C64 or Linux

 

And who in the world asked you to do that, in first place (and on an ATARI forum) ???

 

If you (really) knew better, you should be already addressing y-cruncher's author (who most likely has more direct programming experience with both environments that whatever you may have on your entire lifetime).

 

Are you implying that I should discard his work and findings (and the hundreds and hundreds of contributions on his site) in lieu of your self-righteous, C64-crusading cheerleading drama?

 

I guess not, of course. And I hope you can, at least, respect my sincerity and directness. It is for a good cause.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Faicuai

[Faicuai]

7 minutes ago, Mrarkus said:

Overall, I think it's a mess.

It is, for sure.

 

The reason is simple: OUR ERA (the era where all of our personal computing took place on a desk) is coming to an end.

 

And there are pretty strong forces driving this change, and (ironically) we are mainly responsible for those changes.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Faicuai

[Mazzspeed]

9 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

And who in the world asked you to do that, in first place?

It's a public forum, who asked you to promote hyperbole?

9 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

f you (really) knew better, you should be already addressing y-cruncher's author (who most likely has more direct programming experience with both environments that whatever you may have on your entire lifetime).

I'm not questioning his coding. The author himself specifically states:

 

Re Linux:

Quote

The Windows thread pool is not available.

Meaning, the code is optimized for Windows.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[Mazzspeed]

2 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

It is, for sure.

And the doubling up of interfaces between the touch and desktop UI's of Windows 10 isn't somehow a mess? The poor usage of screen real estate due to some desire to make Windows a touch UI isn't a mess?

 

No OS is perfect and that most definitely includes Windows.

[Faicuai]

10 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said:

Meaning, the code is optimized for Windows.

He reported a lot more work dome, though:

• std::async is the same as thread spawning.
• The Windows thread pool is not available. 
• The Push Pool isn't much better than thread spawning.
• Cilk Plus reeks of the same overhead that kills it on Windows.
• Cilk Plus is deprecated and has been removed from GCC.
• GCC doesn't support TBB out-of-box.

But I am sure you know better, and you will know how to optimize it, so you can feel better about it, and we can go back at Linux and C64 cheerleading... in an Atari Forum !! 

 

??

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Faicuai

[Mazzspeed]

8 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

He reported a lot more work dome, though:

• std::async is the same as thread spawning.
• The Windows thread pool is not available. 
• The Push Pool isn't much better than thread spawning.
• Cilk Plus reeks of the same overhead that kills it on Windows.
• Cilk Plus is deprecated and has been removed from GCC.
• GCC doesn't support TBB out-of-box.

But I am sure you know better, and you will know how to optimize it, so you can feel better about it, and we can go back at Linux and C64 cheerleading... in an Atari Forum !! 

 

??

 

 

If you look closely, he also highlighted the Windows NUMA issue above 64 threads. As I stated, I never said I know better, I stated the author does and the author specifically stated the software is developed in a way that benefits Windows.

 

As for your comment regarding cheerleading, I assume you're stating that because this is an Atari forum we should promote hyperbole as it works in our favor. I'm sorry, I'm not going to jump on that little wagon.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Mazzspeed