Don't Piss Off the Parts Seller Keeping Atari Machines Alive

[Mazzspeed]

10 minutes ago, adam242 said:

One brief statement in an Antic article is hardly a 'historical record', just one man's opinion. And not entirely accurate, either. For example, Apple was still producing their monochrome, composite-in Monitor II until late 1993. And used monochrome monitors of this type were hardly rare in the mid-late 80s.

They were used in abundance on the IBM PC.

 

He doesn't understand that monochrome monitors have no shadow mask, therefore they aren't as limited in relation to outright resolution. I think he thinks everything runs a fixed resolution like the LCD's used as part of his 'pure rendering path'.

[Faicuai]

33 minutes ago, adam242 said:

One brief statement in an Antic article is hardly a 'historical record', just one man's opinion

The other way around.

 

"ANTIC VOL. 7, NO. 6 / OCTOBER 1988" (a real record, by any means)  

 

They go on to explain the REAL motivation to seek a TTL-compliant interface:  lack or shortage of those older, cheap monitors that could do the work.

 

It could not be any clearer (Apple monochrome monitors were NOT $50, and don't recall ever tested):

 

"

XEP80 MONITOR MATTERS

As Antic's original XEP80 review in July 1987 pointed out, you need a good composite video monitor capable of 80 sharp columns in order to see what the XEP hardware is truly capable of. I tried to use the XEP80 with my old Commodore 1702 color monitor. It almost worked, but the 1702 didn't quite have the bandwidth needed for 80 columns. A line of text at the top and bottom of the display and some characters at the left edge were chopped off.

You could move up to the $300 Commodore 1802, the 80-column version developed for their C128. However, your best bet would be to get an inexpensive 80-column composite video monochrome monitor sold for as little as $50 by mail order companies. Unfortunately these are now somewhat hard to find, because most monochrome monitors these days have TTL interfaces, specifically for IBM PC compatibles.

The May 1988 issue of the San Leandro Computer Club (SLCC) Journal published a tutorial article by Bob Woolley, about modifying the XEP80 for TTL monitors. It looks like a fairly simple project for experienced hardware hackers.-MATT RATCLIFF

 

ANTIC and Bob Wooley are no such "lone men".

 

Now, you CAN cite other sources or records that indicate or contradict the above: abundance of cheap $50 CRT monitors by 1987/1988 (date if this article).

 

So BE (Brad) was right about this one. Credit goes where credit is due.

 

 

 

 

[Mazzspeed]

7 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

The other way around.

 

"ANTIC VOL. 7, NO. 6 / OCTOBER 1988" (a real record, by any means)  

 

They go on to explain the REAL motivation to seek a TTL-compliant interface:  lack or shortage of those older, cheap monitors that could do the work.

 

It could not be any clearer (Apple monochrome monitors were NOT $50, and don't recall ever tested):

 

"

XEP80 MONITOR MATTERS

As Antic's original XEP80 review in July 1987 pointed out, you need a good composite video monitor capable of 80 sharp columns in order to see what the XEP hardware is truly capable of. I tried to use the XEP80 with my old Commodore 1702 color monitor. It almost worked, but the 1702 didn't quite have the bandwidth needed for 80 columns. A line of text at the top and bottom of the display and some characters at the left edge were chopped off.

You could move up to the $300 Commodore 1802, the 80-column version developed for their C128. However, your best bet would be to get an inexpensive 80-column composite video monochrome monitor sold for as little as $50 by mail order companies. Unfortunately these are now somewhat hard to find, because most monochrome monitors these days have TTL interfaces, specifically for IBM PC compatibles.

The May 1988 issue of the San Leandro Computer Club (SLCC) Journal published a tutorial article by Bob Woolley, about modifying the XEP80 for TTL monitors. It looks like a fairly simple project for experienced hardware hackers.-MATT RATCLIFF

 

ANTIC and Bob Wooley are no such "lone men".

 

Now, you CAN cite other sources or records that indicate or contradict the above: abundance of cheap $50 CRT monitors by 1987/1988 (date if this article).

 

So BE (Brad) was right about this one. Credit goes where credit is due.

 

 

 

 

There was a plethora of monochrome monitors that could handle the XEP's stupid output, monochrome monitors are not limited in terms of resolution. We ran a whole classroom of monochrome monitors capable of such resolutions using a BNC (not to be confused with composite) input in the day.

 

They were not rare in the day.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[BillC]

1 hour ago, Mazzspeed said:

using a BNC (not to be confused with composite) input

The BNC connector has nothing to do with the signal carried over it, composite monitors sold for use with security camera systems commonly used BNC connectors. I have seen an old 16 camera video surveillance DVR that uses BNC connectors for the composite inputs/outputs, I suspect this was so that the cables couldn't come unplugged accidentally.

 

I also had a 19" Panasonic CRT monitor that had 2 inputs, 1 x HD15 and the other 5 x BNC(RGB + 2 sync).

[+thegoldenband]

14 hours ago, youxia said:

this Brad dude, whose only crime seems to be that he's got his own way of doing things and refuses to deal with some people (have yet to hear how he actually ripped somebody off or was truly rude to them)

The closest thing I've seen is the story from Gunstar at the end of this post:

Personally I find the story pretty plausible -- it's far more likely that the person writing down the address screwed it up than the person who lives there.

 

If so, then screwing up someone's address, failing to contact them when the package is returned to sender, and then charging them a second shipping fee and a "restocking fee" to make it right? That certainly borders on ripping someone off. As a businessperson you either eat the cost yourself or issue a full refund; anything else is unethical.

 

I notice a few people keep saying "If you just follow his rules, it'll all be fine!" without acknowledging that some of those "rules" are unwritten rules that go well beyond expecting customers to behave with common decency. In other words, it's one thing to have unwritten rules that expect basic social mores, but quite another to have unwritten rules that are capricious or inconsistent.

 

Has everyone who's gotten rebuffed by Best done something "wrong"? Should all of them have been able to anticipate whatever issue got them rejected? I highly doubt it, on either count. Too many decent posters have posted accounts of being left totally "WTF?!"

 

Some of this could be avoided with a few simple lines of text on the website, setting out ground rules and explaining the underlying reasons. Most people want to be decent and reasonable and not cause problems, so if they know the whats and whys, they'll cooperate.

 

Some of the cryptic stuff may even be nobly-motivated, e.g. he wants to limit the amount any one person orders so that no one starts cornering the market or upcharging, but doesn't want to say that outright. But sometimes it sounds like the guy is just in a bad mood, or doesn't want to be bothered looking for something. No amount of fortunetelling will get around that.

 

And just because someone has the right to act like a jerk -- which a businessperson clearly does, as long as they don't violate the law and treat all races, religions, etc. with equal jerkitude! -- doesn't mean they aren't still a jerk. Acting within one's rights and acting with decency are two entirely separate things. After all it's also within an unhappy customer's rights to denounce, and even discourage others from patronizing, a business they feel has treated them badly -- whether that feeling is right or wrong, just or unjust, they've still got the right.

[Mazzspeed]

1 hour ago, BillC said:

The BNC connector has nothing to do with the signal carried over it, composite monitors sold for use with security camera systems commonly used BNC connectors. I have seen an old 16 camera video surveillance DVR that uses BNC connectors for the composite inputs/outputs, I suspect this was so that the cables couldn't come unplugged accidentally.

 

I also had a 19" Panasonic CRT monitor that had 2 inputs, 1 x HD15 and the other 5 x BNC(RGB + 2 sync).

Hence the reason why I didn't call it composite out, as it's not composite out. In the same sense, naturally a BNC input on a monochrome monitor isn't technically composite in as it accepts a luma signal only. Most of the time you ran BNC to RCA adaptors when it came to monitors unless it was absolutely critical that they didn't become accidentally dislodged. The monitors I described were used on BBC model B's which actually had a BNC video out.

 

The point is: In the day such monochrome monitors were commonplace and could quite easily handle the output of the XEP80. As highlighted by a certain linked article, you could simply and easily buy them for $50 from mail order companies.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[+DjayBee]

Could some mod please change this thread's title to

"Grumpy old men - Brad, Mazz and Fai shopping for freedom"

?

Edited June 26, 2021 by DjayBee

[Mazzspeed]

30 minutes ago, DjayBee said:

Could some mod please change this thread's title to

"Grumpy old men - Brad, Mazz and Fai shopping for freedom"

?

I don't give a hoot what Brad does, because I know that's it's Brads business and he can do whatever he wants in relation to his business. I also know that I'm not the center of the universe.

 

Perhaps Brad has an issue with people possibly looking to buy brand new goods at most likely great prices and then flipping them on Ebay? We know it happens regarding retro hardware, it's driving prices through the roof. If that's the case, I respect the Man.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[DavidD]

Okay, I'm incredibly curious now... I've seen a few references to orders being cancelled because they were paid for too quickly...

 

I am struggling to come up with any sort of reason why paying for something immediately is a problem, annoyance, or "red flag".  Does anyone have any clue as to what this is about? 

 

(Unless, of course, that wasn't the reason...)

[bfollowell]

21 minutes ago, DavidD said:

Okay, I'm incredibly curious now... I've seen a few references to orders being cancelled because they were paid for too quickly...

 

I am struggling to come up with any sort of reason why paying for something immediately is a problem, annoyance, or "red flag".  Does anyone have any clue as to what this is about? 

 

(Unless, of course, that wasn't the reason...)

 

I've wondered the same thing since I've seen that referenced here. When I buy something, I pay for it then. I'm rarely invoiced for something. When I am, it's typically from a contractor that's done work on one of our rentals or something like that, not when I've purchased something. Why would you not just pay for your order when ordering? How were these guys ordering and paying that they received an invoice? I'm sure it's something simple, but I can't just think of how or why this morning.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

 

 

 

[bfollowell]

You're telling me about it! I just assumed I was posting a simple link and people would read it and laugh, or not. Never, in a million years, did I think this thread would turn into a 7-page monstrosity in barely a week, let alone one filled with such hard feelings and petty arguments. I guess that just shows my naiveté. I certainly regret ever posting it now and I definitely should have used better judgement.

 

Certainly no one has anything insightful or useful to add at this point and I wish a mod would lock the thread and let it die.

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by bfollowell

[Clint Thompson]

On 6/19/2021 at 10:20 AM, mytek said:

But I think the key take away from that article would be to keep in mind that this is one guy by himself who manages a warehouse stacked with pallets of Atari computers, printers, carts, components, ect. - and keep in mind that he's probably verging on or past 70 years of age...

 

 

I would literally drop everything I'm doing this minute and head out to his warehouse and help in every way possible if he'd let me. However, I understand why he doesn't want an outsider to come in and help run an operation he's been managing to run his way perfectly fine (for him) his entire life. The guy has to have a crazy amount of Atari knowledge and stories to tell. Has anyone ever met and spoke with him? I've only seen a few (quite old) interviews and pictures with him but no videos or otherwise, so he is quite the mysterious Atari maestro!

[Faicuai]

14 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

They were not rare in the day.

Dinosaurs, Ford-T´s, Pilot PDAs, and many species gone extinct a long time ago were all not rare "in he day".

 

But no-one here is talking about "in the day", nor BNC connectors, nor BBC masters, or any of that irrelevant (and out-of-context) anecdotes.

 

The only thing we are talking about here is a concise, documented account from 1987-1988 which already backs/support what Brad explained on his own, in modern times (eg. viable monitors were already very hard to find 20 years ago). And on this specific item, he was correct. He's been always correct. Plain and simple.

 

And even if I may vocally object his customer-handling practices, at least I had the decency of never calling him an "idiot", and also accept the fact that he was right on the above matter.

 

Case closed.

[bfollowell]

19 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

at least I had the decency of never calling him an "idiot"

You’re right, I shouldn’t have called you an idiot. That was uncalled for and I apologize. I should’ve just stopped at rude.

 

[+DarkLord]

I'm trying to figure out the invoice thing?

 

I always call Brad directly on my orders and he takes my CC

info over the phone and it's done. In just a few days I get

the order in a nice, neat little Best Electronics box.

 

Thanks.

 

[+thegoldenband]

6 hours ago, bfollowell said:

I've wondered the same thing since I've seen that referenced here. When I buy something, I pay for it then. I'm rarely invoiced for something. When I am, it's typically from a contractor that's done work on one of our rentals or something like that, not when I've purchased something. Why would you not just pay for your order when ordering? How were these guys ordering and paying that they received an invoice? I'm sure it's something simple, but I can't just think of how or why this morning.

It would make sense if someone sent payment for an order he hadn't invoiced yet, since he wants to be able to invoice for only the items he's willing to provide in that order. That's reasonable: accepting payment in excess of the final amount causes all kinds of hassles -- refunds, adjustments, etc. -- and implies that he's obliged to deliver all the items paid for, which he doesn't want to do (i.e. he wants to control, item-by-item, what he will and won't send).

 

OTOH it's a different story if someone's supposed to wait a certain amount of time before paying, even after getting an invoice with confirmation of availability and final total. A couple people have said exactly that: they got an invoice, paid promptly, and then were refunded and banned for...paying too promptly? I don't see the logic in that at all; most vendors love immediate payment.

 

My guess is that there's something unspoken going on. Not wanting to deal with customs is one possibility, simply not wanting to be bothered with a particular order is another, and a third is some sort of personal animus (which can be within a business owner's rights, but can also be illegal, depending on the underlying reason).

 

But none of those even make any sense, since a person's surname, location, and items desired would all be known by the time an invoice is issued. Ultimately, whatever the reason is, it wastes a person's time -- which is something you can never get a refund on.

 

[Mazzspeed]

8 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Dinosaurs, Ford-T´s, Pilot PDAs, and many species gone extinct a long time ago were all not rare "in he day".

 

But no-one here is talking about "in the day", nor BNC connectors, nor BBC masters, or any of that irrelevant (and out-of-context) anecdotes.

 

The only thing we are talking about here is a concise, documented account from 1987-1988 which already backs/support what Brad explained on his own, in modern times (eg. viable monitors were already very hard to find 20 years ago). And on this specific item, he was correct. He's been always correct. Plain and simple.

 

And even if I may vocally object his customer-handling practices, at least I had the decency of never calling him an "idiot", and also accept the fact that he was right on the above matter.

 

Case closed.

I'm not interested in getting drawn down some bullshit rabbit hole with yourself ranting and spewing garbage as fact while trying to insert as many big words as possible in an attempt to sound intelligent and well to do.

 

I've made my point, it stands, shut up and stop dragging threads off topic. I don't know how many times you posted a link to that thread in a shamelessly obvious attempt to start some off topic flamewar.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[Faicuai]

3 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

spewing garbage as fact

Minor correction: spewing fact (your words) as garbage.

 

You are tight, I am guilty as charged there.

 

I congratulate you for finally not wishing to dig a deeper.... after 150+ posts just doing that... and while having NEVER bought anything from BE.

 

Quite a feat!! Moving on, now...

[Mazzspeed]

14 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Minor correction: spewing fact (your words) as garbage.

 

You are tight, I am guilty as charged there.

 

I congratulate you for finally not wishing to dig a deeper.... after 150+ posts just doing that... and while having NEVER bought anything from BE.

 

Quite a feat!! Moving on, now...

Not interested mate. You're off topic ranting is ridiculous, let it go.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Mazzspeed

[jaybird3rd]

2 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Moving on, now...

I'm sure we'd all greatly appreciate it if you would.  This back-and-forth bickering is getting tiresome.

[_The Doctor__]

I have given this some thought...

certain orders might contain items he may not be sure he has in stock, while you may not be told that... if you pay before it's verified or items do not exist, I'd suspect he'd cancel the order....

or...

maybe he is pensioned/retired/collecting social security benefit that limits how much he can sell in a quarter or other given time period....

 

I had a neighbor whom was a retired barber... he wouldn't cut peoples hair at certain intervals or points and would not do so for free either... he had explained to me that he could only make so much money due to such constraints. It wasn't until clientele left the area or passed away and he was no longer in danger of exceeding those limits that he would accept a New customer and cut their hair.

 

I have other ideas but this is indeed a valid one... but the latter scenario really does happen in real life. What may seem random to us may have ramifications for Brad and isn't random to him at all.

Edited July 10, 2021 by _The Doctor__