PentaGo

[Cousin Vinnie]

41 minutes ago, Paul Westphal said:

I think it's a great game to port. It's randomness promotes replayability - You can play it differently everytime. I love the 8bit version, and I either play for distance, or for points. Nice work, D1970

I think the best attribute of this game is in fact the randomness of the levels and the fact that the enemies are smart, they aren't Blinky and Inky from Pac Man. They'll run right to ya. 

[+Mitch]

I haven't had a chance to test it my self yet but I was curious which music does it use? Since there are two versions of the arcade game.

 

Mitch

[+save2600]

The YT vid has the 'other' tune playing. Not the 'Popcorn' tune... was wondering if there were plans to incorporate both (as selectable or perhaps alternating between levels) as it would be great to have both in the game.

Awesome job so far on this btw! Love me some Pengo and this looks to be yet another top notch conversion.

 

[+darryl1970]

7 hours ago, bhall408 said:

I've tested it in Argon, both the TIA and POKEY versions work fine (it supports POKEY, and does it in stereo)

Thanks Brian. I check it nightly on Argon. It seems to play great.

7 hours ago, bhall408 said:

If you know it only ever uses cardinal directions, we can set a flag on the server side to make it play with a 4-way stick instead of the default 8-way.

I am terrible with on-screen controls. That would actually be great. I think it might help Popeye too.

 

Would this only work if the game was embedded in the Argon release, or would it work for my nightly builds?

7 hours ago, bhall408 said:

On the high score screen, I think I would have expected up to increase the character rather than down, but that may be just me

I notice that sometimes too. I use the high score functionality built into 7800 Basic. It's much easier.

 

[+darryl1970]

I updated to the latest demo in the first thread.

[+bhall408]

18 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

Quote

If you know it only ever uses cardinal directions, we can set a flag on the server side to make it play with a 4-way stick instead of the default 8-way.

I am terrible with on-screen controls. That would actually be great. I think it might help Popeye too.

 

Would this only work if the game was embedded in the Argon release, or would it work for my nightly builds?

We use a SHA or MD5 hash of the ROM as a lookup against our server side meta-data for matching purposes. We index on both SHA and MD5 as Google Drive has nice native support for MD5.

 

We have meta-data for a few thousand games at this point.

 

So a game doesn't have to be served up from Argon to benefit from the meta-data, but it does have to match the hash we have for that particular set of meta-data.

 

That works fine for released games, but obviously not so for games in development, where the hash is going to change every time you do a new build.

 

We have an internal mechanism to provide game specific data in a parallel JSON file, but that is not exposed for BYO/side loaded games. At least not yet

 

I'll take that feedback back...

 

In the meantime, if you would like us to give 4-way digital a try on Popeye (that is final, correct?) let me know and we can make that happen.

 

(the other values that would be good to have are release date, update date (if it had a subsequent update), developer name, publisher name (if applicable). For the poster/thumb-nail, we can auto-generate one if we have the file, or you can provide one)

 

 

[OldStyle]

On 10/11/2021 at 5:24 AM, Trebor said:

Prior to experiencing this never thought I would care for or even consider Pengo as a selection for an Arcade port I would want to see; however, I am very glad this has made me more than want it.  What a treat!  Just seeing that AtariAge.com intro alone is worth the price of admission, but really emphasizes from the start the attention and care to detail, as this port already does not disappoint. 

 

The Arcade intro is beautifully in place.  The POKEY sound is very nicely done and the graphics and animation look awesome.  Excellent job so far, and looking forward to the continued development!

Well said!  This is a treat and it's fun to play.  Top-notch choice and development on this!

[TrekMD]

Downloaded the latest version to test out.

[+x=usr(1536)]

Love how this is progressing, and am very much looking forward to the end result ?

 

On 10/9/2021 at 4:26 AM, darryl1970 said:

Also, the wall stun is delayed in the arcade version. If Pengo stuns a snow-bee that is next to him, the arcade snow-bee will slide into Pengo, kill Pengo, and then it will be stunned.

 

Years ago, I worked with someone who, for fun, disassembled one of the arcade versions of Pengo and went through the code.  He was writing his own version for another platform and wanted to get an as-close-to-arcade-as-possible set of behaviours from the gameplay.

 

From conversations we had at the time, he was perplexed as to why freezing the wall would sometimes stun a sno-bee instantly, while at other times it cause the slide/kill/stun routine you described above.  My recollection is that it has to do with how the arcade game divides up the screen.

 

Think of the part of the screen inside of the walls as a 13x15 tilemap.  In that tilemap, each block resides within its own cell.  However, each cell can also be split in half either horizontally or vertically.  Depending on the sno-bee's position within the cell, one of two things happen:

• If the sno-bee is entirely within the cell, it will be stunned immediately.
• If the sno-bee is partially within the cell, it keeps moving in the same direction as when the wall was pushed until it is fully within the next cell that it was moving towards, then becomes stunned.

IIRC (and it's been a long time), this also affects other behaviours like sno-bees sometimes not being crushed by ice blocks.

[+darryl1970]

On 10/12/2021 at 3:06 PM, Mitch said:

I haven't had a chance to test it my self yet but I was curious which music does it use? Since there are two versions of the arcade game.

 

Mitch

"Alternate", which is the one I grew up with. I didn't hear Popcorn until MAME.

On 10/12/2021 at 3:12 PM, save2600 said:

The YT vid has the 'other' tune playing. Not the 'Popcorn' tune... was wondering if there were plans to incorporate both (as selectable or perhaps alternating between levels) as it would be great to have both in the game.

Awesome job so far on this btw! Love me some Pengo and this looks to be yet another top notch conversion.

 

I am not sure if the Popcorn tune will make it in. Computer music compositions are not my strong point. With that said, I think they sound better than most 7800 games back in the day, which isn't saying much, but they're nothing like synthpop can do.  Never say never, but Popcorn is not a priority at this time. I've thought about how I'd do it. Since the left difficulty switch selects TIA or POKEY,  I could use the right difficulty switch to select the tune. That would be cool. One could even possibly change mid-game.

 

One problem is that I am really close to running out of processing time, especially on the levels with 4 snow-bees. More logic in the sound area could hurt the game play, which is top priority.

 

@x=usr(1536) I tried to add your message to this quote, but it wouldn't copy. Weird. Anyway, that is really cool information, and it explains a LOT. It explains why the arcade Pengo can be so forgiving with collision one minute, yet brutal the next. I kind of noticed this a little, especially when a snow-bee approaches a wall perpendicularly. It often and bounces away without consequences, but sometimes it does. I figured it was due to not being in the exact coordinate for long enough, but not I see why it can seem inconsistent. I don't know if it's just coincidence, but I do score higher on the "Popcorn" version of Pengo. It seems to play a little more fair. Did you friend notice if there were any logic changes between the two versions?

[fandenivoldsk]

Love this! But I really wish it used the Popcorn tune.

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, darryl1970 said:

I tried to add your message to this quote, but it wouldn't copy. Weird. Anyway, that is really cool information, and it explains a LOT. It explains why the arcade Pengo can be so forgiving with collision one minute, yet brutal the next. I kind of noticed this a little, especially when a snow-bee approaches a wall perpendicularly. It often and bounces away without consequences, but sometimes it does. I figured it was due to not being in the exact coordinate for long enough, but not I see why it can seem inconsistent.

I believe this also accounts for the case where a block collides with an egg just after it begins to hatch and the sno-bee that comes out of it isn't killed.  If the timing is just right on the collision, the game doesn't see the block hitting a valid target (i.e., the sno-bee emerging from the egg) and allows the sno-bee to form fully and exit the block.

Quote

I don't know if it's just coincidence, but I do score higher on the "Popcorn" version of Pengo. It seems to play a little more fair. Did you friend notice if there were any logic changes between the two versions?

Unfortunately, I don't recall specifics on that one; it's been a really long time, and for some reason the block behaviour is what I really remember.  Frankly, I'd trust the arcadeitalia entry for Pengo (pengo.cpp) ahead of my memory on this one - the history section briefly goes into differences between the various ROM sets, including gameplay.  Might also be worth checking the clone sets to see if they can shed any light.

[NML32]

Do high scores save with the demo version?

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by NML32

[+darryl1970]

3 hours ago, NML32 said:

Do high scores save with the demo version?

 

They are supposed to. However, I recently noticed that I may have made a couple mistakes.

 

Pengo includes a full array of cheats, and I block the high score whenever a cheat is applied.

Today, I noticed that I had demo blocked instead of cheat.

 

Also, the "BUPDemo" is just the regular demo with High Score disabled. BUP crashed if high score saves are enabled. I think I may have accidentally left it disabled in the last demo.

 

I will be posting a new demo soon, and everything should be right.

 

However, you have to enable High Score or XM (High Score And POKEY) in A7800, in order to get the scores to save.

 

SELECT and RESET access the clear feature, in case the scores are corrupted.

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by darryl1970

[+darryl1970]

Update in first thread. Restored high score initial entry for demo. Added music to initials screen.

[NML32]

Thank you for the explanation. 

I was trying to get Pengo Hi Scores to save on the MiSTer FPGA A7800 core. I'll try again with the next update. 

Thank you. 

[+Pat Brady]

9 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

"Alternate", which is the one I grew up with. I didn't hear Popcorn until MAME.

I am not sure if the Popcorn tune will make it in. Computer music compositions are not my strong point. With that said, I think they sound better than most 7800 games back in the day, which isn't saying much, but they're nothing like synthpop can do.  Never say never, but Popcorn is not a priority at this time. I've thought about how I'd do it. Since the left difficulty switch selects TIA or POKEY,  I could use the right difficulty switch to select the tune. That would be cool. One could even possibly change mid-game.

 

LMK if you'd like my assistance with that (for either or both chips).

[Giles N]

13 hours ago, fandenivoldsk said:

Love this! But I really wish it used the Popcorn tune.

5200 tune is waaay better…

 

But if both could be in there, on an option-menu, that’d be cool!!

[+darryl1970]

7 hours ago, Giles N said:

5200 tune is waaay better…

 

But if both could be in there, on an option-menu, that’d be cool!!

I would love to have both versions too, just for completeness.  That depends on  some things, such as practicality (Will the extra logic cause slowdown?) and space left.

 

I agree the "Alternative" / 5200 is my preferred experience. I also prefer it miles ahead of the GameGear and Genesis music. Popcorn is my second favorite, but it's not original to the game.

 

I feel the thing that makes these old games special is that the sound effects and music didn't exist before the game.

[+x=usr(1536)]

6 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

Popcorn is my second favorite, but it's not original to the game.

Maybe

 

The story I've always heard is that Sega initially released Pengo with Popcorn as the background music, but, after receiving a cease & desist from the then-holder of the copyright to the song, changed it to the tune that you remember.

 

Whether or not that happened is up for debate, as I don't believe any documentation supporting that story ever surfaced.  However, from going through the MAME sets known to have been released by Sega (i.e., not bootlegs):

• pengo (Set 1, Rev. C, unencrypted): original tune
  • Ditto pengo2 (Set 2, encrypted), pengo2u (Set 2, Rev. A, unencrypted), pengo4 (Set 4, encrypted), pengo5 (Set 5, unencrypted)
• pengo3u (Set 3, unencrypted): Popcorn

So only one 'official' set has Popcorn as the background music.  Looking at the bootleg versions, though, all of them use Popcorn.

 

This leaves a few possibilities:

• pengo3u (Set 3, unencrypted) is the original version, given that it's both unencrypted and the only Sega version to use Popcorn.
  • It would make sense that this would be the version to derive bootlegs (and bootlegs of bootlegs) from, assuming that it's the earliest version on the market.
  • This would also give some credence to the cease & desist story.
• pengo3u (Set 3, unencrypted) is a hack / upgrade / preproduction game.
  • All three are feasible.  How likely they are, though, is up for debate.
• pengo3u (Set 3, unencrypted) was the Japanese release and Popcorn wasn't licensed for the rest of the world.
  • This article suggests that to be the case.  Also feasible, and likely correct.

In any event, I'm neither advocating nor condemning these ideas; everything is too speculative to go either way.  But the arcade versions do show an interesting pattern in how the music was used, and how that affected the bootleg variants.  It's possible that anyone (myself included) outside of Japan who remembers the game having Popcorn as the music was playing a bootleg without realising it.

 

Yes, I really have nothing better to be doing at this point in the morning

 

Incidentally: @darryl1970: you may want to take a look at the attract mode of pengo3u.  At various times, the half-cell behaviour can be seen when a wall freeze does the half-cell stun, Pengo walks through half a sno-bee without dying, a diamond block fails to crush a sno-bee, and a sno-bee does another half-cell stun when the diamond blocks are arranged against each other.

[+darryl1970]

@x=usr(1536) I find myself going down that rabbit hole sometimes myself. It's actually very interesting.

 

To clarify my comment about original, I didn't mean to imply that it was the original tune. One of the things I admire about games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong is that the sounds in those games never existed before the game. "Whacka" is not a sample of somebody eating. It's an iconic sound that will live on forever, and it didn't exist until Pac-Man existed.

 

Popcorn was a pop tune. I think it was actually "Hot Butter" or something like that. I **ASSUME** the alternate music was composed FOR Pengo. To me, that makes it more special.

 

I tweaked the last demo slightly. The pause after shaking the wall, crushing ice, or pushing ice, is longer than it was. It's still less than the arcade game. I also shrunk the collision boundaries slightly. It was grabbing anything nearby. Now it is possible to graze a snow-bee and miss.

 

I also realized that I was not awarding 500 pts for crushing a hidden snow-bee ice block. I have fixed that on my current code.

[sodarun]

Awesome work darryl1970 ( Had to make a video)

Skip to 10:04 to see Pengo
 

 

[+darryl1970]

7 minutes ago, sodarun said:

Awesome work darryl1970 ( Had to make a video)

Skip to 10:04 to see Pengo
 

 

Very entertaining. Thanks for the coverage and kind words.

 

You can shake the walls, which stun any snow-bees that are touching it at the time.

Also, lining up the 3 star blocks, in a horizontal or vertical row, will result in a bonus.

 

I am glad you enjoy it.

 

[Synthpopalooza]

Just an offer:  I can do the "Popcorn" tune in POKEY, if needed.  I can bang that out in one night, possibly.

[+darryl1970]

1 hour ago, Synthpopalooza said:

Just an offer:  I can do the "Popcorn" tune in POKEY, if needed.  I can bang that out in one night, possibly.

Thanks. I really appreciate the offer, but it's already added. I just haven't posted a demo yet.

 

I know you'd come up with a killer version, but I am also using a different sound engine. I do not know how to compose for the sound engine used in Popeye.