meta Meta language released

[Kaj de Vos]

@matosimi has notified me that he removed his images. I added a link to this thread to the new one, to preserve the history.

[zbyti]

Being on the topic of "wasting time"  last I asked a creator of prog8 to basic A8 support  it's hobby :]

Edited November 15, 2021 by zbyti

[ilmenit]

1 hour ago, drac030 said:

I agree with OP here, the thread has been derailed, additionally in a very embarrassing way (unfortunately, I am not able to express Polish "żenujący" any better). So closing this one and starting anew - without involving himself into pointless discussions about asm, cc65 or MadPascal - seems quite a rational decision.

While the "embarrassing" screens from Urban Dictionary could have been skipped, indeed, the new programming language will be (always?) discussed in context of other languages. Many games in MadPascal or CC65 come with the sources available and designing a lang for 8bit Atari it may be worth checking how their are solving problems of e.g. memory alignment, built-in runtime functions, zero page variables/data or linking with music player. Easiness of such operations can be a deciding factor about adoption of the language. For example KickC is very promising replacement for CC65 but lack of Atari support in CRT is a blocker for me to switch to this language.

[zbyti]

Even @Kaj de Vos has compared Meta examples (on his page) with other languages. Context is important.

[danwinslow]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:04 AM, Kaj de Vos said:

I'm not wrong, there are grave misconceptions in there. Please have patience until I have time to answer them.

 

I think it's quite presumptuous of you to equate everyone here with your own preferences and preconceptions. Anyway, if you are not the target market, what are you doing in this thread? I'm not forcing anything upon you.

I'm not equating everyone here with my preferences...this might be a language (human, not meta) problem, but I think I understand what you mean. I clearly stated it was my own opinion.

I think it's quite presumptuous of you to wave your hand and refer to criticism as 'grave misconceptions'. What were the grave misconceptions you refer to? 

You seem to think that any negativity or criticism results from us just not understanding things correctly, and when you have time to 'explain' then we will all see that you are right. That more than anything else is what has turned me off from this discussion.

I see you started another thread, I think that's probably a good idea because there were some kind of rude posts, which if you'll recall, I spoke against.

Good luck with your project.

 

 

[Kaj de Vos]

It's still the case that I need to sleep now and then. I answered many questions here and on the website this year:

https://language.metaproject.frl/#features

 

Still, Meta is not for everyone:

https://language.metaproject.frl/#for

[zbyti]

Meta is more Human-friendly for programmers who thinks like machine

 

OK. I'm switch to standby because now we talk more about it then we use it.

[ilmenit]

14 minutes ago, zbyti said:

OK. I'm switch to standby because now we talk more about it then we use it.

Considering that Meta should be similar to Rebol, take a look at the well known Sieve benchmark written in this language:

http://www.rebol.com/rebcode/sieve2.r  

Isn't the example readable and beautifully human-friendly?  

Edited November 15, 2021 by ilmenit

[Kaj de Vos]

That version of the program is written in the REBOL 2 pseudo-code dialect. It's not the default REBOL dialect and is thus also not representative for Meta. It's somewhere between the default functional dialect and assembly.

[drac030]

3 hours ago, ilmenit said:

Many games in MadPascal or CC65 come with the sources available and designing a lang for 8bit Atari it may be worth checking how their are solving problems of e.g. memory alignment, built-in runtime functions, zero page variables/data or linking with music player.

While that is an undoubtedly true statement, we do not assume that OP is a 5-year-old kid and does not know that? Or that he does not know that asm, cc65, Mad Pascal exist? Or what they do or what they do not, or what they can or what they can not? Or that he should do that thing and not the other? Just re-read the very post which led to the thread having been derailed, especially its beginning.

 

I will say no more, I do not want to pollute this thread with more irrelevancy.

[ilmenit]

40 minutes ago, Kaj de Vos said:

That version of the program is written in the REBOL 2 pseudo-code dialect. It's not the default REBOL dialect and is thus also not representative for Meta. It's somewhere between the default functional dialect and assembly.

Is this one a better example?

https://www.scriptol.com/programming/sieve.php#rebol

[TGB1718]

Personally, it doesn't matter which example I look at I struggle to understand 1/2 of the code

and what it's trying to achieve (that's even when I know what it's supposed to do).

 

I don't believe this type of code is "Human Readable"

 

Maybe it's just me ?

[Kaj de Vos]

Yes, that is the REBOL dialect, although it is written in a C/Pascal/BASIC style, using indexes. But perhaps that is better to start with as an example. When you become more proficient, you would use series by reference.

 

I wrote a Sieve example that I will use for benchmarking, especially comparing REBOL and Red. I have to be very careful with it, because it is always a touchy subject. I expected the shit show to start then. ?

[Kaj de Vos]

1 minute ago, TGB1718 said:

Maybe it's just me ?

No, it's why I keep insisting that practice is necessary. You can't expect to read a new language fluently in a matter of minutes.

[TGB1718]

But where is the instruction manual ?

 

Every link you post seems to go to the same web page where there's lot's about

what your trying to achieve but no guide on how to use the language or a list

of the language primitives/reserved words/functions etc.

[Kaj de Vos]

Again, there isn't one yet. It takes a lot of time to write documentation. It's great if you want to try Meta already, but then you have to make do with the few examples I have published so far and the REBOL documentation I have selected. It's really useful to work through that to learn the basics.

[ilmenit]

42 minutes ago, Kaj de Vos said:

Yes, that is the REBOL dialect, although it is written in a C/Pascal/BASIC style, using indexes. But perhaps that is better to start with as an example. When you become more proficient, you would use series by reference.

I wrote a Sieve example that I will use for benchmarking, especially comparing REBOL and Red. I have to be very careful with it, because it is always a touchy subject. I expected the shit show to start then. ?

Actually I would be very interested to see how to write it in "REBOL way". C'mon, post your example with #roastme hash tag!  

[zbyti]

I'm trying to retrieve a 16-bit address from $58, $59 and display 'A' on the screen

 

No luck

[Kaj de Vos]

I would really prefer to wait until I have finished it. If I dumped it here now, there would be hundred reasons for people here to tear it apart.

[Kaj de Vos]

5 minutes ago, zbyti said:

I'm trying to retrieve a 16-bit address from $58, $59 and display 'A' on the screen

 

No luck

Things are a little more official in Meta. That's a pointer, that's not directly supported. I'm planning to implement a screen! type for that. But you can always get around it with assembly.

[Kaj de Vos]

The Rainbow examples show how to define memory addresses.

[zbyti]

1 minute ago, Kaj de Vos said:

The Rainbow examples show how to define memory addresses.

I know that.

[Kaj de Vos]

But you don't know, that instead of a byte!, you want a natural!

[zbyti]

Just now, Kaj de Vos said:

But you don't know, that instead of a byte!, you want a natural!

yep... console say something like that then I checked word or integer  

[Kaj de Vos]

Then you can do

unsafe!!! [
  LDA byte
  STA/via SAVMSC
]