Built myself a 486

[eightbit]

Has anybody tested the Unisound driver?

 

https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=72553

 

I gave this a go today. Wow, detects my CT2770 Soundblaster perfectly and works great. This is like the cutemouse of sound drivers in that it is very light (40k I believe). Freed up a good chunk of conventional memory over the stock SB16 drivers, so I have disabled them in favor of this.

 

 

[eightbit]

3 hours ago, Keatah said:

Better step to it. "RETRO GAME" and old PC parts prices are on the rise. A diamond speedstar ISA board will run you over $200. Other lesser ISA graphics gonna cost you 50-100. As I've said before, its actually e-waste. But RETROGAMES!

 

I second this. Get to it now or pay hefty down the road. Prices are on the rise indeed. But the smart thing to do is to do a lot of research. There are other cards out there that compare equally or even beat something like the speedstar for a lot less, but they are just not as well known. As a hint I don't shop for brands, I shop for GPU's (others using the same GPU chip).

 

Even there however the well is drying up at least here in the USA. We've "recycled" the vast majority of this old hardware decades ago so I am pretty amazed when I still see things available. But, it's not like everything I want is readily available. Some of this hardware is extremely rare and not obtainable at all regardless of what you are willing to spend on it.

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by eightbit

[Keatah]

4 hours ago, eightbit said:

I second this. Get to it now or pay hefty down the road. Prices are on the rise indeed. But the smart thing to do is to do a lot of research. There are other cards out there that compare equally or even beat something like the speedstar for a lot less, but they are just not as well known. As a hint I don't shop for brands, I shop for GPU's (others using the same GPU chip).

I picked the SpeedStar as an example. I liked it because it was 2MB and a name I knew of back then.

 

I tend to be partial to Cirrus Logic 54xx chips for 486 machines. Call it first experience bias. Or being impressed by the brochure CL sent me when inquiring through those Reader Service cards. I loved getting mail like that! But yes by all means shop by chip and capabilities, and then the features the board implements.

 

Other favorite graphics chipsets (too early to call them GPUs IMHO) I liked would be stuff from S3, like the Trio, 964, Virge. Maybe even the MACH stuff from ATi, but I never owned any o'those. NumberNine and Matrox were other notable options. The industry was moving too fast with too many competitors and I couldn't get them all.

 

For all the fame and recognition 3DFx garnered for the Voodoo series, I never felt they were elegant. I never liked the passthrough design. And after Voodoo² came out development took a nosedive into lameness. Stuff just wasn't happening.

 

I couldn't wait for proper 2D/3D combo chips to arrive. The Riva-128 was a first good choice and had the fastest 2D of its time.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Keatah

[wierd_w]

I think I used Trident cards back then.  Trident 9440, as I recall, but I dont think it looked like this one... Oh well

 

 

 

I forget if Diamond had any VLB cards or not...

Yeah, looks like there were Stealth64 cards in VLB, as well as Power9000.

 

 

 

 

 

Looks like there *WAS* a VLB version of Mach64 from ATI.

 

 

Anyway, in the 486 era, I rocked that 9440 VLB, until I upgraded to a pentium with PCI-- then upgraded to an ATI Rage Pro, then a TNT-2.

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by wierd_w

[Keatah]

4 hours ago, eightbit said:

Even there however the well is drying up at least here in the USA. We've "recycled" the vast majority of this old hardware decades ago so I am pretty amazed when I still see things available. But, it's not like everything I want is readily available. Some of this hardware is extremely rare and not obtainable at all regardless of what you are willing to spend on it.

I seem to recall that the US was doing over 1400 tons of vintage computing e-waste per day for a while. Don't know if that's a high number or not. But, yes, a lot of stuff has been melted down already.

 

An example of something unobtainable now could be like the proprietary memory card I have in my 486. It's proprietary in that it's only way to expand beyond 32MB. Or simply get to 16MB if using 1MB SIMMS. There's nothing exotic about the design, just standard TTL buffers. A physical space to add 8 more SIMMS. That's it. And I bet it could be duplicated just by following some traces and using SIMM data sheets and common sense.

 

I assume it's impossible to find because not many people that early on added more than 16 or 32MB to their rigs. And memory was expensive when getting up to the quantities the card provided for. It was specific to Micronics 386 and 486 boards - so not likely sold in stores.

 

I got one straight from the manufacturer/Gateway2000 back then. It was the most economical path for me to inch my way up into the big-boy leagues. The only way. Started with 4MB in 4 SIMMS on the mainboard. Got 4 more later from COMP-USA so I could play more games. Total of 8MB now.

 

To go beyond 8MB would mean trashing my existing memory. Or keep it, and stay economical with purchasing more 1MB x 9 parts. So got the card and added in 8MB more. Total of 16MB. And that's where it sits today.

 

I've only seen one on ebay between ebay's inception and now. And that was 8 or 10 years ago. I don't believe I paid more than 40 or 50 for this second backup card. Today that'd likely cost hundreds! But it isn't available anywhere.

[Keatah]

42 minutes ago, wierd_w said:

I forget if Diamond had any VLB cards or not...

Sure they did. Too many IMHO.

 

Stealth 64 with Trio 64

SpeedStar with Cirrus Logic, 54xx, likely 5428 IIRC

Viper with Weitek 9000

Stealth 24 with S3/805

SpeedStar PRO with ???

 

Some graphics chipsets of the day had multiple interfaces straight on their die. ISA/PCI/VLB all together in one part. So very easy to make different models of a card.

 

What I'm wondering now is what were EISA graphics board like? Did they use any common chipset? Or were they all specialty ASICs so to speak.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Keatah

[wierd_w]

I had such a board back then also. Some variant of a BocaRam card. Got it second hand, as I recall.  had 30 pin SIMM slots on it.

 

Vaguely similar to this card.

 

 

[Keatah]

That looks like it'd work in any system. And perhaps was targeted for 286/386 machines? I'm not too familiar with those styles other than that they existed.

 

The card I have was specific to Micronics boards - a SIMM riser - appears they didn't have physical room on the mobo. So. Card! Gosh I sound like I'm idolizing it.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Keatah

[wierd_w]

It was universal, yes.

 

As I recall, my dad got a bunch of WYSE systems out of a dumpster from his workplace, after they did an upgrade. Several 286 systems, and I think, 2 386 systems.  They were very oddball systems, that were basically a system-on-board coupled with a dumb backplane in a proprietary case.  This ram expansion card was tucked away inside one of them, and it was put to better use in my 486.

 

(edit -- Googled to see if I could find the beast-- got a hit on ebay.)

Bizzaro system-on-board PC had this as the compute board.

 

 

Admittedly, those 30pin simms, with their maximum of 16bits wide access (via 16bit ISA bus), were a bottleneck for sure.  However, it meant the difference between some games that needed the additional ram running, or not running.  (and I had surplus 30pin)

 

I scored a few EGA cards, and some other odds and ends from that dumpster salvage special-- Cooked one of the better looking 386 systems into a clunker for my older sister, who was pining for a computer but could not afford one.  "Obsolete but free" was a deal she was willing to accept.  I remember that I loaded it up with Commander Keen, and some other odds and ends, and that my nephew really loved playing on it.

Edited March 14, 2022 by wierd_w

[zzip]

15 hours ago, Keatah said:

Better step to it. "RETRO GAME" and old PC parts prices are on the rise. A diamond speedstar ISA board will run you over $200. Other lesser ISA graphics gonna cost you 50-100. As I've said before, its actually e-waste. But RETROGAMES!

Hmm,  maybe time to sell my excess hardware!

[eightbit]

3 hours ago, zzip said:

Hmm,  maybe time to sell my excess hardware!

 

When it comes to old computers and computer hardware, yeah, now may be the time. Or, hang on to it and take the chance that the prices will go even higher. That is certainly a possibility. 

 

Only 10 or so years ago I recall picking up Amiga 500's (computer only) for $20 each on ebay. I purchased like four of these at that price. Fixed them up (well, they really didn't need fixing..just cleaning up really) and eventually sold them off for a few bucks more than what I had paid.

 

Now an Amiga 500 is not obtainable by me for any sort of reasonable price. They sell in the hundreds now.

 

It appears the same is happening even for old PC stuff. I literally threw away old computer components for years. To me when they became obsolete they were worthless. Now I wish I kept some of that stuff!

 

 

[zzip]

6 minutes ago, eightbit said:

Only 10 or so years ago I recall picking up Amiga 500's (computer only) for $20 each on ebay. I purchased like four of these at that price. Fixed them up (well, they really didn't need fixing..just cleaning up really) and eventually sold them off for a few bucks more than what I had paid.

 

Now an Amiga 500 is not obtainable by me for any sort of reasonable price. They sell in the hundreds now.

I made the same mistake with the Atari Jaguar.  Bought one on clearance for $50,  sold it a year or two later for about the same price, now it's worth 10-20x that!

 

7 minutes ago, eightbit said:

It appears the same is happening even for old PC stuff. I literally threw away old computer components for years. To me when they became obsolete they were worthless. Now I wish I kept some of that stuff!

seems hit or miss,  I just checked the prices for a few soundcards I have laying around.   My Sound Blaster Live! goes for less than $20,  Sound Blaster AWE64 is $100+ and Gravis Ultrasound is hundreds of dollars.   I don't mind parting with the SB Live, but kinda want to keep the other two even though they are older and ISA.   I suppose that explains the prices if everyone feels that way!  ?

[eightbit]

Yeah, the time is not there (yet) for items like SB Live! cards. I would imagine in another ten years that will be a different story

 

 

[zzip]

5 minutes ago, eightbit said:

Yeah, the time is not there (yet) for items like SB Live! cards. I would imagine in another ten years that will be a different story

Live! came out less than two years after AWE64,  what is everyone only nostalgic for ISA-based systems?  ?

[eightbit]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Live! came out less than two years after AWE64,  what is everyone only nostalgic for ISA-based systems?  ?

 

I think the nostalgia is for the best DOS compatibility...and the fact that most 486 motherboards only have ISA/VLB slots (although some do have PCI too).

 

The cards that are not plug and play and configurable by jumpers are really desirable. Stuff like the Soundblaster Pro goes for a pretty penny. 

 

While the AWE64 Gold was an ISA PnP card but a lot of people are nostalgic for it (including me!) because it represented the height of the ISA line in some people's minds. I was so happy when I purchased that sound card! 

[zzip]

37 minutes ago, eightbit said:

While the AWE64 Gold was an ISA PnP card but a lot of people are nostalgic for it (including me!) because it represented the height of the ISA line in some people's minds. I was so happy when I purchased that sound card! 

There was something special about it sure.   Maybe because it had features that were new and exciting at the time?   So it gives warm and fuzzy memories while my memory of the SB Live is mostly about how complex its mixer was and how I could never get the settings quite right.  Always one thing was too loud another too quiet and another channel switched off for no apparent reason..   I can't really remember what new features it brought, other than PCI.  

[Keatah]

22 minutes ago, eightbit said:

I think the nostalgia is for the best DOS compatibility...and the fact that most 486 motherboards only have ISA/VLB slots (although some do have PCI too).

Nostalgia for the way things were. ISA was still a popular standard in the 486 era. And VLB was, of course, a 486 specific bus. It worked. It did what it was supposed to. And it represented a positive point in the PC's burgeoning standards. Nothing else used it. If you trace out the wiring, you'll see the

 

PCI on the 486 is just unbalanced. Mismatched because PCI would allow for peripherals that had no business being in a 486 machine anyways. Lots of un-used potential on the side of the bus too. 486 was made to hit the bus directly and NOT navigate through layers of arbitrated transactions.

 

VLB was pretty much a direct electrical connection to the 486 chip itself, thus the limitation of 2 or 3 slots. Too much load and capacitance would become an issue with more. That's ok though. VLB was intended for graphics only. Putting storage and other stuff on it was really asking a lot. And the industry was pissed. Boohoo!!

 

27 minutes ago, eightbit said:

The cards that are not plug and play and configurable by jumpers are really desirable. Stuff like the Soundblaster Pro goes for a pretty penny.

I strongly prefer the original SB16 in a 486 build. No PnP. The PnP cards stuff came later and seemed intended for more advanced BIOSes. 486 BIOS was too simple.

 

30 minutes ago, eightbit said:

While the AWE64 Gold was an ISA PnP card but a lot of people are nostalgic for it (including me!) because it represented the height of the ISA line in some people's minds. I was so happy when I purchased that sound card! 

Very much so. I do like apex cards, representing the best and end of an era. I wouldn't ever put one in a 486, assuming the drivers would work there. I never tried and never will.

 

The AWE64 Gold is just fine in my Pentium III rig - which can also boot directly to DOS.

 

[eightbit]

Good old Creative Labs. Sound cards used to be so important and a Soundblaster was the defacto-standard. In 2000 they were trading at over $30 a share. Today it is $1.75

 

 

[Keatah]

11 minutes ago, zzip said:

So it gives warm and fuzzy memories while my memory of the SB Live is mostly about how complex its mixer was and how I could never get the settings quite right.

Gosh yes. Total settings overload. Audigy was even worse. Seemed like Creative Labs was desperate to keep sound cards relevant to the general consumer by enlarging their scope and making all this bloated software. Tons of connectors. Breakout boxes. Media management software. Remote control. Even DXR-2 decoder boards. A little much IMHO.

 

I have a PCI LIVE! card in my Pentium III rig. And I haven't used it one iota in past 15 years. Should really pull it and spiff up the rig in general.

 

I've never been big on PC sound beyond the basics, so 2.1 suited me just fine in the past, and today. If I was to hypothetically chase after good sound I wouldn't be using CreativeLabs stuff anyways.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Keatah

[eightbit]

Well, the DX4-100 arrived and guess what? This SIS motherboard is a cost reduced model that does not have the voltage regulator for these processors. How did I not notice that? I read the manual and everything looked golden until I was changing jumpers and realized the lack of the regulator and the corresponding jumper. Ugh.

 

So, I dismantled the PC and installed the Asus board I had which DOES support it. I still have to get some settings correct but I just ran out of steam tonight. Tomorrow!

 

 

I will say this motherboard is awesome. It has a feature where you press CTRL-ALT plus minus or plus on the keyboard and it turns turbo on and off. That's pretty useful!

 

What I am dealing with now is the fact that the 100MHz cpu is benching at around an 80MHz Cyrix CPU. I think I know what this is. This CPU has WB cache and I don't think the jumper settings for DX4 on this board are working with that. I'll try the AMD with WB jumper settings instead and see if that resolves it.

 

The other issue I had was with the cache. The board had 128K on it but I figured I would migrate the 256K from the SIS board to this. I did and it would not fully boot with external cache enabled. I left the control cache chip that was on here in place as it seemed the same in terms of speed (-15) and I didn't expect a problem...but indeed it was.

 

I swapped it with the -15 control chip from the SIS board and that fixed the problem. So weird that all of the cache chips that I migrated are -20 (and I cannot find who makes these at all) but the control cache chip it worked with is -15. 

 

Anyway, that works fine now at least. Here's hoping I can get the full speed out of this CPU tomorrow.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by eightbit

[Keatah]

So sorry to hear about the 3.3 vs 5 volt issue. If I wasn't so lazy I would've looked at your board pics in detail and caught it when you said DX4. But sounds like you'll be happy with the Asus board all the same. The first cost-reduced board is a little misleading because it does indeed say 3.3 & 5v on the silkscreening. Doesn't it?

 

I had this same trip-up with messing with my Genoa SiS461 board. I bought a 5v AMD 5x86/133 chip and found the board wouldn't support 3.3 - 3.45v. Almost powered it up. Not a big loss since I only paid like $15 for 2 chips. Again laziness

 

Then I said fuckitall and stuffed in a Trinity PowerStacker. Problem solved. And 133MHz too.
 

I specifically chose the SiS461 because "more budget". A simpler-looking motherboard. And I've got plenty'o 30-pin SIMMS. The 461 is the same as the 471 with exception of 3.3v support. 64 vs 128MB RAM. I'm not ever going to stuff a 486 beyond 16 or 32MB anyways. And 471 supports 30 & 72pin SIMMS vs only 30 on the 461.

 

But like I always love to say. 486 rigs are devious little fuckers. Always a gotcha!

 

Additionally: I'll have to try out the Unisound driver. Maybe on my next 486 build with the Genoa board. Between that and CTMouse I might be able to load everything like on my DX2-50 but get a little more conventional memory.

 

Not sure I want to go down a rabbit hole on that machine. It's the one I had from 1992 and it works fine. Not that messing with it would break anything permanently or anything. You just don't mess with fine wine!

Edited March 15, 2022 by Keatah

[eightbit]

46 minutes ago, Keatah said:

So sorry to hear about the 3.3 vs 5 volt issue. If I wasn't so lazy I would've looked at your board pics in detail and caught it when you said DX4. But sounds like you'll be happy with the Asus board all the same. The first cost-reduced board is a little misleading because it does indeed say 3.3 & 5v on the silkscreening. Doesn't it?

 

It certainly DOES say it is 3.3 and 5V compatible. They just left off some components on this board to actually set it to 3.3V...lol. I suspect this was a CR board that was sold for 5V machines and they never expected anyone to try to add a DX-4 100 to it. It can probably still happen with this board if the components are added, but its probably better to use the 486 Overdrive in this board and not deal with any of that.

 

 

[Keatah]

Yes. You'd have to get the exact components. And I bet there are a couple of passive parts too. The tolerances and specs would need to be exact. PC's aren't like videomodding a 2600, ya know. Maybe set it aside and come back to it if you really want to populate those parts. Compare against a photo of the same board.. But I bet you forget about the whole thing!

 

I recently find that PC mobo troubleshooting/repair/modding is a tedious time consuming thing. Challenging and fun for sure. Plenty of complexity to keep a technician engaged for hours. But over the years my interest has shifted to software and a systems approach. Making things work together. Solving a problem then instantly seeing results

 

The farthest I go on mainboards nowadays is swapping socketed/slotted things. And the occasional connector replacement or recapping job. Not interested in showing off multi-level board internal trace repair skills or reworking BGAs. But I do keep my skills sharp (by showing others how to do it) in case that one piece of Unobtainium goes belly-up.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Keatah

[wierd_w]

Is this by chance, the missing regulator?

 

 

It is not a full interposer, it is some specialty regulator circuit for certain SIS and ECS equipped motherboards from the era.  However, it might be what you need, given your board is an SIS one.

 

If nothing else, it is the necessary circuitry to regulate the needed voltages. It could be bastardized with a custom made PCB to get you the components and circuitry you need.

 

*edit

 

Nope. That regulator wont just bolt on, sadly. It could be used to fabricate an interposer, but thats about it.

 

Those regulator interposers are basically unobtainium these days, sadly.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by wierd_w

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, eightbit said:

They just left off some components on this board to actually set it to 3.3V...lol.

Is the photo you posted the one of your board? Or an internet stock photo?