My Latest Tale of Ebay Woe...

[DavidMil]

This is my fault, but I can still cry!

 

    I saw a Percom drive for sale on ebay (not an auction), and it was a good price.  It said that the vendor had tested the drive and it was

guarantied to work.  So I bought it.  It arrived very nicely packaged, and it looked like he had blown out the inside too.  So I unplugged

my 1050's and plugged in the AT88 drive, turned it on, drive spun a couple of times and stopped.  So far, so good!  I put a disk, in closed

the door again it spun a second then stopped.  Now the pain starts!  I turned on my old 800 and... nothing.  Opened and closed the door,

no change. Tried powering everything off and on again, no change! Drats!  Unplugged the Percom drive and plugged my 1050 drives back in,

and now the computer would not see the 1050's.  It also dawned on me that I didn't hear the 850 initialization beep either.  Not good, not good!

I got out my backup 800 and plugged it in to the 1050's, and everything worked fine.  I got out my SALT cartridge and ran a quick test.  NO

SOUND!!!  Oh no...  tore the 800 apart and swapped out the POKEY chip with a known good one and the 800 worked again.

   

    Now I was so mad I could have chewed up nails!  I looked at the back of the Percom drive and all six of the jumpers will still on the drive.

I tried pulling them all off to set the drive as one with no other drives attached, and the jumpers had been on so long I had to get a pair

of plyers to remove them.  Some were even corroded on.  So I went back into ebay to complain to the guy, and then I saw in big letters:

I Don't Take Returns, all sales are Finial.  Anyway, it killed one of my precious POKEY chips.  After I cool down in a few weeks I'll look at the

drive and start trouble shooting.  There is no reason to post this other than to warn you about people on ebay that say one thing and do another!     

 

DavidMil  

 

[Beeblebrox]

@DavidMilUnfortunately there are some unscrupulous sellers out there. Thankfully you have the opportunity to provide feedback if you wish.

 

Also you can get some compensation from Ebay under the ebay guarantee, since it was sold as working and it wasn't. 

 

Quote from Ebay T&Cs:

 

The eBay Money Back Guarantee means that, as a buyer, you're protected if the item you ordered didn't arrive, is faulty or damaged, or doesn't match the listing description.25 Aug 2020

 

IMHO go for it - you have nothing to lose.

[dzzy1982]

You might have had a surge or have voltage on the SIO, I remember reading somewhere that those percom drives could shock people because the power supply was not properly isolated or something.

Edited March 10, 2022 by dzzy1982

[Mclaneinc]

David, as Beeble says, you still have Ebay warranty and if the seller used the term "guaranteed to work" or near then I'd say you have a right to a refund under ebay rules. Hell, it damaged your own machine, I'd say that's as faulty as you can get.

 

Mind you, if the machine isn't grounded then it's a worry even if it did work..

 

Best of luck my friend..

 

Paul..

[Mrshoujo]

We need someone to make an FPGA POKEY replacement.

[ACML]

You have recourse.  If the eBay item said it was "Used" which the definition says it functionally works or a specific statement that it worked, they have to take it back.  Your reason is "item not as described".  eBay will force the seller to take it back if it was claimed to be working and it did not.  The key is using the "item not as described" for the rationale.

 

Good luck

  

[dzzy1982]

20 minutes ago, ACML said:

If the eBay item said it was "Used" which the definition says it functionally works or a specific statement that it worked, they have to take it back.

I'm pretty sure that when you list items in the "vintage computing" category, the condition option is greyed out. Unless the seller explicitly stated that the drive was operational, he might have a problem. A lot of sellers are quite vague about it and simply say that the item "powers on" and never mention whether it's properly working or not. Do you have the item # or a link so we could read the sellers description?

Edited March 10, 2022 by dzzy1982

[mimo]

2 hours ago, Mrshoujo said:

We need someone to make an FPGA POKEY replacement.

like Pokeymax?

[bfollowell]

3 hours ago, dzzy1982 said:

I'm pretty sure that when you list items in the "vintage computing" category, the condition option is greyed out. Unless the seller explicitly stated that the drive was operational, he might have a problem. A lot of sellers are quite vague about it and simply say that the item "powers on" and never mention whether it's properly working or not. Do you have the item # or a link so we could read the sellers description?

 

Not having seen the auction, I can't say for certain, but @DavidMil specifically stated in his post that the seller said that they had tested the drive and it was guaranteed to work. You can't get much more plain than that. Also, I really don't see how you can "guarantee that it'll work", then not take it back when it doesn't. That's sort of talking out of both sides of their mouth. Again, the key is @DavidMil, actually filing a complaint and doing something about it. He really can't wait and try to fix the drive and then complain later. He really needs to decide if he wants to keep the drive and try to repair it, or get his money back from a faulty drive that was poorly described. He really can't do both. and he can't dawdle in making his decision.

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by bfollowell

[cwilbar]

@DavidMil,

 

Sorry to hear....  I've had my share of issues from eBay.  The biggest being not packed well enough.  Still dealing with an eBay seller who didn't pack a 1050 with enough protection on the top/bottom and the top case received a crack, and one of the internal 'posts' of the bottom was broken off.  I repaired the drive all around, even sealing up the crack via application of acetone from the inside.  However, it is still slightly visible and I feel a partial refund is in order, but while I thought that was going to work out (I requested $20 which I thought seemed fair).... communication has gone cold.  So I messaged him asking if I should file an eBay claim.  Still no word. 

 

Like others here have said, if it was sold as working, then you are protected via eBay. 

 

If you do end up doing a claim and return it and want a Percom drive, PM me, I should have one or two available.  Mine are tested and working.

 

Good luck however you deal with this.  I'll say a prayer for your dear departed POKEY....  I hate seeing a good POKEY die ?

 

 

[gilsaluki]

Thanks for sharing, it is a good reminder to all of us that Ebay is a gamble.  I saw that drive for sale, was tempted, but my wife would kill me if I buy more Atari stuff, hardware.  Sorry to hear it.  It is a good remind to everyone to check output voltages, open the case up and inspect the item (caps blown, corrosion, etc).  I probably would have done exactly what you did, hooked it and Ka-POW!  Some sellers say it's "Tested", but really have nothing to connect the item to, they just power it up, see a light, hear something twirling inside and assume all it working.  I have had zero luck getting my money refunded from people like that.  I have just had to eat it.  I find that Ebay, even though they may have protection policies in place, actually never lift a finger to help.  They should ban people like that from being sellers, but they don't, there is no motivated to do so since they make money on each sale.  I hate Ebay more each day.  Amazon is a close second. 

[cwilbar]

 

I've had bad luck with sellers, but if I filed a claim (always justified when I had to), I've never had an issue. 

 

The most recent time (I haven't done a claim yet) is a 1050 drive not packed well, broken stand off in lower case, crack in upper case....

and the one before that was a lot, and an 800 that had its upper and lower cases broken... came out with chunks missing and shrapnel in the box. 

There were original disks, an 800XL, and some other bits.... and I did get a great deal.... didn't file a case as I didn't want to risk eBay having me send the lot back.... as I wanted the rest.  Still hoping to run into an 800 upper and lower shell someday.

 

Sellers create many of these problems for themselves, from outright lying to (mostly) being incompetent in packing something for shipping by the NFL... (oh, sorry I mean UPS).

I feel no sympathy for them when they lose money having to give me a partial refund, or whole refund....  if they took a few more minutes packing, they'd have avoided the problem.  And how they like to blame the carriers.....  if you think they aren't going to handle the package well, pack it better....  hopefully some of them learn.

 

[+Larry]

Packing items is an art, especially for heavy items.  Resellers don't have access to the customized packing forms and materials that OEMs have.  But even big retailers have issues with packing.  Biggest problem that I've seen is using a box too small to allow adequate cushioning material.  Best system I've seen -- a box in a box, with both cushioned.  I once received an eBay XF551 disk drive that had been placed in a plastic grocery bag and then laid bare inside a large box, more than two  times larger than the disk drive.  Of course, the mech was trashed when I received it.  But the board (and miraculously) the case survived.

[Beeblebrox]

Packing A8s and their peripherals well in boxes for transit is plain common sense. I've done it many times. Plenty of bubble wrap, packing chips. Where heavy psus involved have in separate little boxes and place em side by side. Never place heavy items on top of another and make sure you mitigate as much as possible items moving about.

 

It really isn't rocket science. ?

 

I've said this before but IMHO once I pay for an item it is technically my property and I feel the seller has an obligation to ensure they package it adequately. I do when I sell things. I also put adequate signage on the boxes, (fragile, this way up, do not crush, etc etc). 

 

The difference between buying a new/modern piece of hardware or computer compared with a vintage item is that if insured and damaged/lost a new item can be replaced. Vintage items don't have that luxury given it is either hard to find a replacement or in some cases nigh on impossible. So the responsibility on a seller posting vintage hardware is all the greater IMHO.

Simply having it insured, (although great), isn't enough compensation where a 40 year old A8 is concerned, if it ends up getting trashed needlessly because the seller just rested the brick psu on top of it with newspaper or a similar inadequate packing medium. 

 

If a seller packages an item well and it is still damaged then at least they did all they could. 

 

There is a reason Ebay feedback has a star rating catagory for packaging. 

 

I've generally been fairly lucky but a few times I've been shocked at the needless lack of effort or common sense by some sellers. 

 

Gonna get off my soap box now heh heh!! ??

Edited March 11, 2022 by Beeblebrox

[cwilbar]

I agree.  Even w/o access to commercial systems.... there are plenty of different packing materials such that when something is packed with care and thought, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

I'm never shocked when it happens anymore.

 

Seems to happen more now than when I was buying 8-10 years ago.  Maybe back then it was families/etc cleaning out, while today much of what you find on eBay is flippers... picked something up cheap at a Goodwill, a yard sale, etc.... and are flipping it for some cash.  Its all about time and money for them.  Thought you'd think that they'd figure out the hit on the latter due to their unwillingness to use more of the former ? .

 

@DavidMil, hope you can resolve your situation.  If you end up returning it and are looking for a Percom drive, feel free to PM me any time.  I've got a few of them.

 

 

[Mathy]

Hello guys

 

Don't count on common sense when it comes to packaging something.  I work at a postal company.  I'm the guy that sees the mail first when it comes in.  People often just don't realize what decent packaging is.  I see packages that are OK on five sides, but if you turn it upside down, every kid can stick a hand in the box though the bottom.  Cardboard boxes that are filled to the brink with small stuff, with a piece of paper on the top side to keep that stuff inside.  Boxes that move before the heavy contents does, when you lift them (as in: the box is not up to carrying the weight of what's inside).  And of course the loose contents that roles around inside the box.  Or the box that has just enough tape on it to keep the box shut, barely.

 

When it comes to shipping stuff, a lot of people just don't think thing through.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

[dzzy1982]

I did find the listing on ebay and it does indeed say that the drive was tested and working. So OP should have no problem getting a refund on this item. Apart from that, is it even possible to damage a pokey chip simply by plugging a drive in? Is the pokey directly connected to SIO? 

[BillC]

9 hours ago, dzzy1982 said:

Is the pokey directly connected to SIO? 

DATA in/out and CLOCK in/out connect POKEY and the SIO port through 100 ohm resistors.

Edited March 12, 2022 by BillC

[_The Doctor__]

Percom drives often get repaired by having the regulators changed... but people don't put the insulator sheet in between the regulators and the heat sink, they don't even know they are there or need to be. The drive will work until the heat sink grease thins and moves enough to allow the regulators to short to the heat sink. Poof for some machines and poof for the drives sometimes as well.

[+kheller2]

Just like a certain one on the 1050.  

[malachykidd]

Question: has anyone made-- or considered making-- an optoisolator interface for SIO, to prevent damage between devices?  I know they're available for RS-232, but I don't know if they'd work for SIO.

[oky2000]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:12 AM, DavidMil said:

This is my fault, but I can still cry!

 

    I saw a Percom drive for sale on ebay (not an auction), and it was a good price.  It said that the vendor had tested the drive and it was

guarantied to work.  So I bought it.  It arrived very nicely packaged, and it looked like he had blown out the inside too.  So I unplugged

my 1050's and plugged in the AT88 drive, turned it on, drive spun a couple of times and stopped.  So far, so good!  I put a disk, in closed

the door again it spun a second then stopped.  Now the pain starts!  I turned on my old 800 and... nothing.  Opened and closed the door,

no change. Tried powering everything off and on again, no change! Drats!  Unplugged the Percom drive and plugged my 1050 drives back in,

and now the computer would not see the 1050's.  It also dawned on me that I didn't hear the 850 initialization beep either.  Not good, not good!

I got out my backup 800 and plugged it in to the 1050's, and everything worked fine.  I got out my SALT cartridge and ran a quick test.  NO

SOUND!!!  Oh no...  tore the 800 apart and swapped out the POKEY chip with a known good one and the 800 worked again.

   

    Now I was so mad I could have chewed up nails!  I looked at the back of the Percom drive and all six of the jumpers will still on the drive.

I tried pulling them all off to set the drive as one with no other drives attached, and the jumpers had been on so long I had to get a pair

of plyers to remove them.  Some were even corroded on.  So I went back into ebay to complain to the guy, and then I saw in big letters:

I Don't Take Returns, all sales are Finial.  Anyway, it killed one of my precious POKEY chips.  After I cool down in a few weeks I'll look at the

drive and start trouble shooting.  There is no reason to post this other than to warn you about people on ebay that say one thing and do another!     

 

DavidMil  

 

If the person said tested working in the description they can not refuse a refund claim, pure and simple. Ebay decides when you can and can't decide 'no returns' as the auction is misleading if it is 'tested and guaranteed to work' and they send you crap. If you go on ebay and open a case and explain it has cost you money (in parts for a POKEY) and your time to fault find this 'tested' 'working' drive you will certainly be in control of what happens next.

 

If it was me I would message the seller and explain what happened and demand a partial refund to cover your time and a replacement POKEY chip, at this point do NOT mention "I will leave you negative if you don't do what I want'. If there response is dismissive open a case, explain the problem and tell ebay you have tried to mediate with the seller to no avail (which ebay can read themselves as they have access to all messages between members). 

 

I made the mistake of buying a mint in mint box Amiga 1000 in 2000 or 2001 on ebay from a guy half a world away from me and sending him a wire transfer (before Paypal existed!) and lost £300 and never received jack. Today you have a lot more options.

 

If you want to sell garbage on ebay with no returns then you have to sell it as 'for parts' or 'untested' in the description too is my understanding, you can't have it both ways.

 

If I am buying something expensive it has to be somewhere I can go and test it in person before handing over the cash, if the seller has nothing to hide they would agree as they make an extra 5% from saved Paypal fees so it's very suspicious if people refused to do that for 'tested' stuff or things shown to be working in auction pictures.

[tep392]

On 2/14/2023 at 9:06 AM, _The Doctor__ said:

Percom drives often get repaired by having the regulators changed... but people don't put the insulator sheet in between the regulators and the heat sink, they don't even know they are there or need to be. The drive will work until the heat sink grease thins and moves enough to allow the regulators to short to the heat sink. Poof for some machines and poof for the drives sometimes as well.

The 8-bit Alchemist article comments that the case/heat sink is grounded.  The package of the voltage regulator is also grounded thru the common pin, so why would the insulator be needed?  Now if the regulator was configured to produce a negative voltage thru the common pin, then the insulator would be needed to keep it from shorting against a grounded heat sink.  But I don't think this is the case with the AT88-S1PD based on the schematic I've looked at.

[tep392]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:33 PM, kheller2 said:

Just like a certain one on the 1050.  

That is the Q6 transistor, and it uses the insulator so that the collector doesn't get grounded thru the heat sink.