Side3 issues....

[+MrFish]

5 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

So one can only conclude that JED 2.3's purpose was to correct the perceived issue of the cost-reduced GoWin CPLD-equipped SIDE 3.2 not working for shit on the vendor's testbed, regardless of how effectively it might function on anyone else's Atari with the updated JED, given that the revised JED was not submitted to anyone else for pre-release testing.

I saw your video when it was first released too. Some rather perplexing actions. He certainly has his post-release testing done.

 

Hopefully the issues aren't too difficult to remedy, and everything can get back on track soon enough.

 

[+mytek]

I watched your video Jon and it was quite a rant, but certainly justifiable. I made it through the entire video, and in an odd sort of way found it to be great entertainment. Personally I've never really liked some of the business decisions Lotharek has made, or the justifications he has given for some of the products he's put out, such as the HD Video Cable which totally sucked due to no individual shields between signals (not what I'd call HD, but that's me).

 

Hey on the plus side, for me that is, perhaps you'll find time to code up that new MIDI Player we talked about a few years back. I know soon after that discussion you got swept up in all of Lotharek's new products such as the SIDE3, and likely nothing happened with the player development as a result (or it just wasn't your thing).

 

Anyway I hope you and Deborah are doing fine, I really like your new home, and your work area puts mine to shame. Also your videos have gotten to be so well put together and certainly informative, as well as entertaining (love the music, the funny breaks, and the very appropriate video clips).

 

Take care old friend

[Mazzspeed]

I also noticed the new home and workspace, looked over at my own mess and got all sad.

 

 

[+CharlieChaplin]

Discontinued A8 products on Lotharek's website:

 

- Rapidus for XL computers  (wait for new Antonia!)

- Rapidus for XE computers (wait for new Antonia!)

- SIDE3 cart. FJC firmware (buy Sub Cart instead, hahaha)

- Re-Pokey (use Sub Cart stereo Pokey emulation)

- Software for SIDE 2

- U1MB upgrade FJC firmware  (use XRAM from Sub Cart)

 

So it looks like you have been set free FJC to do whatever you want ! There is no longer the need to update your firmware for U1MB, SIDE and others. Deborah will love your new free time, I guess. But evil as we are, maybe you can use your new free time to create a new AVF player/standard, a new MIDI player, etc.  ?!?

 

[E474]

There's a long and gloriously expensive history of custom cables going back to SIO (and probably beyond), but I got dinged a while back by ST-Microelectronics as I had bought a reasonably priced Chinese USB dongle cable off eBay for programming the UnoCart firmware, then the cable stopped working when I installed the latest STM studio, and they wanted a genuine STM cable before I could use the IDE. Now moved on to the PicoCart as USB-C seems the way to go. Am always reminded of Bill Frug's diary entries from Dark Star in situations like these:

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

4 hours ago, mytek said:

Hey on the plus side, for me that is, perhaps you'll find time to code up that new MIDI Player we talked about a few years back. I know soon after that discussion you got swept up in all of Lotharek's new products such as the SIDE3, and likely nothing happened with the player development as a result (or it just wasn't your thing).

To be honest with you, I keep forgetting all about the MIDI player until you bring it up again (once a year or so, which does not seem excessive, LOL), mainly because I have a list of similar undertakings that have been on the to-do list for years on end but have not been progressed in any way at all. SIDE3's firmware has been especially all-consuming, as you infer, and to the extent that the second major loader re-write it requires (last one being in late 2022/early 2023) before I can progress it further is such a completely overwhelming prospect that it makes no sense whatsoever for me to even attempt to tackle it until I am confident that new versions will continue to generate regular income. Software of this complexity left the 'for fun' realm some years ago, I'm afraid, and any project - retro, 'hobbyist' or otherwise which requires weeks or months of full-time development work (I mean, full working days, in between my doing regular hardware work) is going to mandate that the developer either gets paid for what he's doing, or has the means to do what he likes every day of the week without worrying about how he earns money.

 

One of the less welcome sides of turning one's hobby into one's job, of course, is that if one is given reason to start hating one's job, there's a risk that you also start hating your hobby. It strikes me that having deliberately (and loyally, having deflected enquiries from third-parties over the past couple of years regarding firmware development concering hardware from 'competing' designers) made Lotharek's products the focus of my day to day work (regarding both software development and the installation of hardware upgrades) to the absolute exclusion of all else, any downturn in revenue from that source (or indeed the souring of relations) has potentially massive ramifications when it comes to what I actually do for a living.

 

Anyway: we're doing fine at the new place - thanks so much for asking. Still a lot to do on the house itself, so I figure I'll close WUDSN IDE down for the next month or so and do some more DIY instead. I sure am tired at the moment (lots of insomnia this week, made worse by a sudden spell of very hot weather in the UK, which is all the more reason not to draw any conclusions about what's going on with various 'FJC firmware' products until I have all the information in my hands), but 'all things must pass', I suppose.

 

Thank you so much for the kind remarks about the videos as well. I certainly intend them to be entertaining as well as factual and informative, although it's become apparent that at least one viewer isn't getting any of the jokes.

 

I hope we can chat some more soon, going forward.

2 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

I also noticed the new home and workspace, looked over at my own mess and got all sad.

Hehe. It's a struggle to keep this clean and tidy - BELIEVE THAT.

 

I forgot to link you to Lotharek's video, BTW, for which apologies (not that I particularly wanted to post the link here).

19 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said:

Discontinued A8 products on Lotharek's website:

 

- Rapidus for XL computers  (wait for new Antonia!)

- Rapidus for XE computers (wait for new Antonia!)

- SIDE3 cart. FJC firmware (buy Sub Cart instead, hahaha)

- Re-Pokey (use Sub Cart stereo Pokey emulation)

- Software for SIDE 2

- U1MB upgrade FJC firmware  (use XRAM from Sub Cart)

 

So it looks like you have been set free FJC to do whatever you want ! There is no longer the need to update your firmware for U1MB, SIDE and others. Deborah will love your new free time, I guess. But evil as we are, maybe you can use your new free time to create a new AVF player/standard, a new MIDI player, etc.  ?!?

• Rapidus: No loss
• SIDE 3.2: Should have been withdrawn pending a fix on 17 May when I raised the alarm in private, not two months later after I raised the alarm in public and made the vendor look incompetent
• U1MB with FJC firmware: unsure whether this will be replaced by the new redesigned, purple U1MB boards yet, so let's wait and see what he's up to (since we can otherwise only guess and probably guess wrong).

Without doubt I won't waste a single minute writing another line of firmware code until this situation is resolved in a way that requires me to do so.

 

 

Edited July 20 by flashjazzcat

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

To be honest with you, I keep forgetting all about the MIDI player until you bring it up again (once a year or so, which does not seem excessive, LOL), mainly because I have a list of similar undertakings that have been on the to-do list for years on end but have not been progressed in any way at all.

 

Probably more like 2 years ago was the last time, but who's counting   I know the 1088XLD kit i sent you which had a MIDI Dream Blaster S2 module included suffered an early death, but hopefully the S2 module was spared. If so I believe there was also a MIDI XEL board in that kit for installation into your 1088XEL. If so, then you at least have the means to test any potential MIDI player. If for some reason that S2 module also died and/or you still contemplate working on a player I can send you something more universal that plugs into any Atari.

 

MIDI product Link

 

I believe there's also a nice 3D printable case available for this that was graciously provided by another AtariAge member, which I'd like to revisit and get the STL file on my site as well.

 

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

Software of this complexity left the 'for fun' realm some years ago, I'm afraid, and any project - retro, 'hobbyist' or otherwise which requires weeks or months of full-time development work (I mean, full working days, in between my doing regular hardware work) is going to mandate that the developer either gets paid for what he's doing, or has the means to do what he likes every day of the week without worrying about how he earns money.

 

Perfectly understandable.

 

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

I hope we can chat some more soon, going forward.

 

Me too.

[flashjazzcat]

12 minutes ago, mytek said:

Probably more like 2 years ago was the last time, but who's counting   I know the 1088XLD kit i sent you which had a MIDI Dream Blaster S2 module included suffered an early death, but hopefully the S2 module was spared. If so I believe there was also a MIDI XEL board in that kit for installation into your 1088XEL. If so, then you at least have the means to test any potential MIDI player. If for some reason that S2 module also died and/or you still contemplate working on a player I can send you something more universal that plugs into any Atari.

Yes - I meant to bring up again my man-slaughter of the 1088XLD board all that time ago; certainly I haven't entirely bounced back from that silly mistake (as I think we chatted about a few months back). The S2 module is certanly intact, anyway. Providing I don't get completely turned off doing anything at all by current circumstances (and I do hope not: I've been programming 8-bit Ataris for thirty-five years now, so if I was ever goaded into a rage-quit, you can be sure I would have been pushed pretty hard), perhaps I can get back to the MIDI player and indeed the 1088XLD itself at some point in the future. I know I always say that when questioned regarding long-neglected projects, but it's about the best I can offer for now.

[+mytek]

20 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

...perhaps I can get back to the MIDI player and indeed the 1088XLD itself at some point in the future. I know I always say that when questioned regarding long-neglected projects, but it's about the best I can offer for now.

No pressure from me on any of this. Do this only if you find it pleasurable. I just wish that we didn't live in different countries, since I would be more inclined to send you stuff, and of course it would be great to meet you eye to eye and hand deliver it to you, but I don't travel anymore (at least not over oceans).

[flashjazzcat]

14 minutes ago, mytek said:

No pressure from me on any of this. Do this only if you find it pleasurable. I just wish that we didn't live in different countries, since I would be more inclined to send you stuff, and of course it would be great to meet you eye to eye and hand deliver it to you, but I don't travel anymore (at least not over oceans).

You make a very good point there. Actually meeting up and spending time is great for lifting the spirits, aside from anything else. My friend Frankie who I first met a few years back when he brought me an ST to work on (he lives here in South Shields and found me via my videos) popped round here this afternoon to see the new house for the first time and drop off an Atari SC1435 pedestal stand and manual he thought I might like to have, and we had a good chat. He's in tech support (working remotely from home for the most part), and was telling me how he had to work till 8:30pm on Friday to clear up the mess caused by the CrowdStrike update on his company's systems. Of course I was updating him on recent events here (which we could perhaps term the 'ClownStrike' update), and the parallels were stark and unavoidable.  I felt in a much better general mood after that.

Edited July 20 by flashjazzcat

[woj]

I would like to say that I am watching all this with popcorn on my lap, but as an owner of two Atari-s filled up with Lotharek's stuff I simply can't. It is all very sad to watch. As far as SIDE3 is considered, I think it should have been withdrawn from sales and properly fixed much earlier than that. I own the 3.0 one (got it just before the 3.1 release, at the time I was sad that just fell into the older batch slot), at the time I had no idea it comes with luggage, and even this one plays up a lot, in my opinion there is an inherent problem in the hardware design and/or software that was never fixed, be it 3.0, 3.1, 3.2. The alternative product does not have known stability issues, but the support is also slow in terms of fixing known bugs (or I should maybe call them functionality deficiencies). So this leaves people like me abandoned, to the point of developing one's own solutions. At this point I am wondering how much work it would be to reprogram the UltimateCart (which was a absolute joy to DIY assemble at home) to bring it closer to the SIDE3 / AVG functionality (it does lack RAM a little bit, I know).

 

Lotharek's biggest mistake in all this IMO is not sticking around places like AA to know what his clients think of the products and what they struggle with on daily basis. I could observe a similar symptom with the THE400Mini. 

[flashjazzcat]

1 hour ago, woj said:

As far as SIDE3 is considered, I think it should have been withdrawn from sales and properly fixed much earlier than that.

Well I did try, first indicating there was an issue with the JED on 17 May (contrary to what Lotharek apparently states in his response video: namely that the first he heard of a problem was when my video was released, a full two months later). Not that I would necessarily expect the product to be yanked solely on the basis of my (however well-informed) initial diagnosis, but perhaps something more than suggesting alternative U1MB Phi2 connection points (which I had already tried, this not being my first rodeo) and saying a platform cable had been put on order. In fact I received no follow-up enquiries for a period of eight weeks as to whether I had made any progress with the SIDE3 cartridge preventing the customer's system from leaving my house. The ideal time to withdraw from sale would have been between the 19th and 21st of Feburary, of course, when Lotharek believed he identified reproducible issues with SIDE 3.2, even when equipped with JED 1.3. But no: it was apparently a 'hardware problem' that was fixed in the space of forty-eight hours.

1 hour ago, woj said:

At this point I am wondering how much work it would be to reprogram the UltimateCart (which was a absolute joy to DIY assemble at home) to bring it closer to the SIDE3 / AVG functionality (it does lack RAM a little bit, I know).

When I was tinkerking with the UNO Cart's STM32 firmware about six years ago (after producing a batch of UNOs myself) and trying to turn it into what SIDE3 would eventually become (but back when SIDE3 was stuck in a 'coming soon' limbo state), it occurred to me that the Ultimate Cart (with which I had been involved prior to the UNO Cart's arrival) would be a far better starting point. Unfortunately, the source tree and build process for the Ultimate Cart was completely beyond my comprehension at the time, so when I hit the brick-wall with the bus-racing approach on the UNO, I basically gave up. I always assumed (since it seemed apparent to me) that AVG was a direct descendent of the Ultimate Cart anyway, so attempting to add SIDE3/AVG functionality to the Ultimate Cart at this stage in the game seems to bring us full-circle.

1 hour ago, woj said:

Lotharek's biggest mistake in all this IMO is not sticking around places like AA to know what his clients think of the products and what they struggle with on daily basis. I could observe a similar symptom with the THE400Mini. 

In his video, he implies that spending 'four hours a day' on forums would be a prerequisite to active involvement in end-user discussions and maintaining first-hand familiarity with product feedback, and that he simply doesn't have the time to spend four hours a day reading forums. As someone who also lacks the time or even the inclination to spend for hours every day reading forums, but who nevertheless knows exactly what's going on within a day or two of it being talked about, I find this rationale completely baffling. I don't even know how the threshold of 'four hours' was even calculated as the average amount of forum time required not be completely out of the loop the whole time. I assume also that his sole reason for disabling comments (another useful means of gathering feedback) on any video he uploads to YouTube is that he lacks the time to read or respond to them.

 

But it's all academic when you receive a WhatsApp message from FJC on 17 May telling you what the problem is without your even have to go near a forum discussion (responses omitted to preserve privacy):

(Note cartridge was bought from RetroLemon, not TBA). I sent more after this, but you get the idea. My initial diagnosis was conclusively proven to be correct - at least in the context of my own and the customer machines - seven weeks later when I recorded the determinate effects of switching between JED 2.3 and JED 1.3.

Edited July 20 by flashjazzcat

[PeBe]

I'm sorry for a little offtopic

 

I rarely contribute here, but.... I'll put in my three cents

 

I see a conversation about MIDI and Player. I'll advertise this.

About two/three years ago I made what is often called the Best MIDI Player for the small Atari.

 

 

The player works best under SDX, but there are those who run it under DOS 2.5, XDOS etc.

Works with:

- extended memory up to 1MB (only based on PORT B)

- MIDI interfaces such as: MIDIBox, MIDIMate, MIDICar (dedicated drivers for each interface)

- For DOS without the command line, a special “bundle” version with an integrated driver

- user-friendly interface

- support for long names (dedicated file 'descript.ion')

- PLS playlist file (the same format as 'descript.ion')

MIDICar Player Repository

 

---

Due to the fact that I do not look here often, any contact on the operation of the program only by e-mail.

Edited July 20 by PeBe

[Mazzspeed]

20 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Hehe. It's a struggle to keep this clean and tidy - BELIEVE THAT.

Well it looks great FJC. Are they also new monitors I spot connected to your PC?

[PE1PQX]

Reading all this mayhem back I think I need to dig out my Side3 and see what version it is.
Still fed up with it, but getting to the root of the problem is also pretty usefull.

Also so sad to learn about how things evolved between people/parties. 🤔

Edit: it is a 'Lattice' version, but when I want to check the JED version: no info on screen of this....

Edited July 21 by PE1PQX

[flashjazzcat]

3 hours ago, Mazzspeed said:

Well it looks great FJC. Are they also new monitors I spot connected to your PC?

They're actually both second-hand, bought at about half the £300-350 RRP back in 2021-2022.

 

https://www.samsung.com/uk/monitors/high-resolution/uj59-32-inch-uhd-4k-lu32j590uqpxxu/

 

After I bought the first one when we were at the old house, I bought another as a spare but immediately realised it would be nice to have dual 32" 4K monitors, so set them both up. When we moved into the new place, I took the stands off and mounted the montors on the wall via extendable brackets which provide a lot of flexibility when it comes to the positioning. I actually picked up yet a third identical monitor a few weeks ago (second-hand again, very keenly priced and in mint condition) which I still need to test-fit on the wall to see if it provides better calibration consistency with either of the existing panels (which are not a very good match, despite being identical displays).

 

I would have liked something frameles or with thinner bezels, but I can't justify that kind of expense and I'm pretty happy with the setup as it is. I picked up an AMD WX5100 GPU (low TDP, 8GB VRAM) second-hand a while ago with four DP connectors, so both monitors are running off DisplayPort and the (second-hand, LOL) Dell MFF PC has been upgraded as far as it will go with second-hand parts, so until I can afford the next PC upgrade, this development/video editing system suits me fine.

3 hours ago, PE1PQX said:

Reading all this mayhem back I think I need to dig out my Side3 and see what version it is.
Still fed up with it, but getting to the root of the problem is also pretty usefull.

Also so sad to learn about how things evolved between people/parties. 🤔

Edit: it is a 'Lattice' version, but when I want to check the JED version: no info on screen of this....

You're experiencing the fact there was no software-accessible JED versioning information when the original loader was written. I asked Candle to implement encoded version info after the fact and the current release version (0.69) of the SIDE3 Loader displays the JED version, as well as the reported hardware version. This works with older JED versions which don't report the hardware revision simply by virtue of those JEDs always reporting '0' in the same register location, so the loader can deduce the base JED revision if that's what's installed.

 

So you can upgrade the loader or simply run the JED update tool (included with the loader update). The JED update tool (which works with Lattice CPLDs only, so it will work on your cart) reports the current JED revison before proceeding, so running that and then backing out is probably the easiest way to verifiy your current JED revision (which will certainly be 1.1 or 1.3).

 

Think very carefully before attempting to update from JED 1.1 to 1.3 if you find you have the older version and if the cart is already giving you problems. If the JED update fails, your cartridge is bricked and you'd need to send it away (to me, for example) to get it un-bricked. Even a loader update may not turn out well if the system is unstable with SIDE3, not because of bugs in the newest loader, but because the newer loader leans more heavily on the pre-requisite of the system basically working than the older loader did. Needless to say that kind of outcome prompted low-insight, high-noise commentators to conclude 'software issue', but I think I finally BTFOd the idea of systemic, show-stopping software issues in my video.

Edited July 21 by flashjazzcat

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

Rapidus @21Mhz, IDE Plus, SIDE 3 - everything works like a beast 😎

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

On 7/20/2024 at 2:18 AM, flashjazzcat said:

Correction: he forgot to withdraw FJC SIDE2 (which I mistyped as SIDE3 in the prior post), presumably because no-one buys it now and it makes no money.

And... that's now been withdrawn as well.

[+mytek]

7 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

And... that's now been withdrawn as well.

If we all sit on our hands for a bit, I'm sure @Stephen will say what we are all feeling about this (hint: it has a middle finger aspect for sure).

 

Well I'm glad that my last big project has no Lotharek parts in it what-so-ever   Although I think it's time for an open source version of something like the U1MB.

[Overange]

5 hours ago, mytek said:

Although I think it's time for an open source version of something like the U1MB.

Your are sort of part way there with yours and @tf_hh 1 meg upgrade for the 576NUC+, of which I have used this design as a SM prototype board in my 800XL motherboard redesign to see if it worth integrating 1 meg into my redesign, the daughter board that sits under the ANTIC is very stable and has not caused me any issues, however, in older systems its has been a bit unstable and this is why I could not release this design, so its a one off in my one off machine  , maybe one day I will finish both designs off....

 

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

13 hours ago, mytek said:

Well I'm glad that my last big project has no Lotharek parts in it what-so-ever

Meanwhile, I spent the last decade or more championing the Candle/Lotharek products, advertising them for free, promoting them, recommending them to customers, purchasing them at full retail price, going all-in on preposterously time-consuming firmware development to the detriment all other long-neglected projects, and basically building my entire business model on installing and maintaining the stuff, while bypassing opportunities to develop firmware from competing designers (one of whom rang me three times last year pestering me to name my price), and missing out on other potential career opportunities because of my single-minded, almost obsessive loyalty and dedication to the upgrades under discussion.

 

That's how it started. Here's how it's going:

I can't say this is unexpected, however, after six months of hardware changes I knew nothing about until they resulted in some customer issue, and the unprecedented absence of a single pre-production or production sample of anything at all (other than stuff I had no hand in but which Lotharek was nevertheless keen for me to publicise in videos) since I received my pre-production SIDE 3.2 in 2023 (which - aside from the different JED - has different buffer chips on it to the production cart I didn't have in my hands until a year later - and only because a customer sent one in - after it had already been on sale for four months).

 

Edited July 23 by flashjazzcat

[_The Doctor__]

Perhaps the instability is not in the old firmware or software, but rather the lies in the nature of the manufacturer.

 

The older firmware having been proven viable and working on damn near all machines and those with an issue getting a 74F08 bringing the machines in spec. would simply have been handled with the older firmware being supplied until the newer one was perfected.

 

This however was foreshadowed in earlier finger thumping debates as well as other assurance issues.

 

Sorry this has happened again, Maybe there are still chances to move on to the others. Enjoy a bit of fixing up niggles in the other things you've done and enjoy the satisfaction that it brings.

Edited July 23 by _The Doctor__

[Peri Noid]

39 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Perhaps the instability is not in the old firmware or software, but rather the lies in the nature of the manufacturer

Why does no one mention the designer? Maybe @candle could express her attitude to this whole case? 

Edited July 23 by Peri Noid

[+Stephen]

4 minutes ago, Peri Noid said:

Why does no one talk about the designer? 

Ask anyone who tried to use Simple Stereo 2 how that worked out.  Only took me 14 months and a dozen or so screen caps from my scope on this public forum to get an admission but never an apology - let alone a refund, that it was defective from the start and could never work?  The entire intervening time I was told I hooked it up wrong, etc.

[+MrFish]

2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

basically building my entire business model on installing and maintaining the stuff

I suppose none of the current changes would threaten that part of your business.

 

2 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

going all-in on preposterously time-consuming firmware development to the detriment (of) all other long-neglected projects

There's no reason you couldn't sell firmware upgrades for the hardware yourself, rather than relying on Lotharek to sell the upgrades for you.