flashjazzcat Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 50 minutes ago, MrFish said: I suppose none of the current changes would threaten that part of your business. No, not if I can stomach continuing to purchase the upgrades at retail prices and recommending them to potential clients in good conscience after experiencing everything I documented in my video. 50 minutes ago, MrFish said: There's no reason you couldn't sell firmware upgrades for the hardware yourself, rather than relying on Lotharek to sell the upgrades for you. It was rather the case that Lotharek's sales relied on the provision of firmware and hardware without which he would generate no income whatsoever. But sure: I could put the whole lot behind a paywall right now, but that is not consistent with the fact I have undertaken to provide the firmware free of charge for end users, and on a licensable basis for commercial vendors/resellers. Intially, all the FJC firmware was free/donationware, but development of what is by far the most complex firmware component (the SIDE3 Loader) was not undertaken until it was clearly understood that it would eventually result in a percentage share of the revenue from each commercially sold cartridge. It's not going to be as simple as 'just go back to the way it was before', since the magnitude of the development task is now completely different, some of the target devices are now approaching fifteen years old, and - most importantly - my hobby wasn't also my job back then. I'm an adult and I'm sure I can find other ways of generating an income, but whether that will afford me the opportunity to invest huge amounts of time on donation or subscription-based firmware development for hardware which has either been abruptly discontinued or which limps along by virtue of the PCB regularly changing colour remains to be seen. Edited July 23 by flashjazzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 55 minutes ago, MrFish said: There's no reason you couldn't sell firmware upgrades for the hardware yourself, rather than relying on Lotharek to sell the upgrades for you. I took at look at FJC's website and it has a donate button. He even call's it donationware. I think it is time for me to donate some money considering I've been running his firmware for several years now without any troubles. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 hours ago, Stephen said: Ask anyone who tried to use Simple Stereo 2 how that worked out. Only took me 14 months and a dozen or so screen caps from my scope on this public forum to get an admission but never an apology - let alone a refund, that it was defective from the start and could never work? The entire intervening time I was told I hooked it up wrong, etc. Me too! I bought two of them (directly from Candle), a friend built them in for me and since they did not work I thought he did it wrong. So I did send both computers to tf_hh and he told me that both simple stereo enhancements are defect and he could not repair them. Nice to know, that I wasn't the only one with that experience... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 8 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: But sure: I could put the whole lot behind a paywall right now, but that is not consistent with the fact I have undertaken to provide the firmware free of charge for end users, and on a licensable basis for commercial vendors/resellers. I didn't mean that you would not continue to offer the firmware free of charge (for download) to anyone who wanted to flash it themselves; but rather that you could possibly charge a service fee to those who would prefer not to flash themselves, rather than having Lotharek flashing the devices pre-sale. 11 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: It's not going to be as simple as 'just go back to the way it was before', since the magnitude of the development task is now completely different, some of the target devices are now approaching fifteen years old, and - most importantly - my hobby wasn't also my job back then. I wasn't suggesting it would necessarily be so simple, as there are various aspects of the current situation which are clouding what future choices may or may not be available in terms of your business. I was more suggestion that you're not entirely at Lotharek's mercy for continuing the business in a similar capacity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 minute ago, MrFish said: I didn't mean that you would not continue to offer the firmware free of charge (for download) to anyone who wanted to flash it themselves; but rather that you could possibly charge a service fee to those who would prefer not to flash themselves, rather than having Lotharek flashing the devices pre-sale. Oh - absolutely. Sorry if I misconstrued anything. Very happy to continue offering that kind of service, of course. 1 minute ago, MrFish said: I wasn't suggesting it would necessarily be so simple, as there are various aspects of the current situation which are clouding what future choices may or may not be available in terms of your business. I was more suggestion that you're not entirely at Lotharek's mercy for continuing the business in a similar capacity. Quite. Putting all my eggs in one basket isn't something I will be doing again. And I agree that making plans while in a 'fog of war' situation whereby all developments have to be inferred soley on the basis of changes the vendor has made to his website isn't a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 21 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: No, not if I can stomach purchasing the upgrades at retail prices... I didn't realise you were purchasing the devices yourself. I had assumed clients were purchasing the devices and then sending their machine along with the devices to you for the upgrade procedures. 21 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: ...or recommending them to potential clients in good conscience after experiencing everything I documented in my video. Agreed there; but, I would assume many people to desire any available upgrades regardless of recommendations; however, I understand your position in the chain, as someone who people rely on for upgrade suggestions as well as installations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 15 minutes ago, MrFish said: I didn't realise you were purchasing the devices yourself. I had assumed clients were purchasing the devices and then sending their machine along with the devices to you for the upgrade procedures. A mixture of the two, sometimes dependent on the physical location of the client. I generally prefer the customer to purchase and supply all the parts, but sometimes that's frankly the least expedient way to get things done, and it's much easier for me to order the upgrades (I ordered £680 of upgrades from RetroLemon for one US job last December, for example). 15 minutes ago, MrFish said: Agreed there; but, I would assume many people to desire any available upgrades regardless of recommendations; however, I understand your position in the chain, as someone who people rely on for upgrade suggestions as well as installations. I think the trust and transparency factor is of high importance here. A recent US customer happened to contact the vendor first instead of seeking advice from me concerning the parts list for the build, and the result was that the customer had little to no idea why he had purchased half of the stuff installed in the computer, much less how to use it. The first thing at least half of my prospective clients ask me for is guidance on the pros and cons of one upgrade over another, and what my recommendations are in the context of what they want to do with the computer. Naturally, while I was generally predisposed to recommend devices like U1MB/SIDE3 rather than AVG/Sub Cart if they were a good fit for the customer, it they weren't a good fit, I'd recommend something else. And sure: some people just email me and say 'I'd like U1MB and Sophia 2 installed; I have them and a SIDE3 already and can ship them with the machine', and that's a walk in the park. Well - it used to be, LOL (that's the exact assignment which took eight weeks to complete in my video and ended up providing me with absolutely no profit whatsoever). Edited July 23 by flashjazzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said: It was rather the case that Lotharek's sales relied on the provision of firmware and hardware without which he would generate no income whatsoever. Yes, in the case of the devices in question, he's essentially assembling and selling; athough, the JED update in question lies on some kind of (apparently shaky) middle ground here. Since candle was the one who informed you about the reason for the update, I'm assuming he had some input or consultation with Lotharek prior to it happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 minutes ago, MrFish said: Since candle was the one who informed you about the reason for the update, I'm assuming he had some input or consultation with Lotharek prior to it happening? Yes, Candle necessarily produced the JED update and presumably had some notion of what changes might ameliorate the issues we had already attempted to address via the test loader Lotharek asked me for on the morning of 19 Feburary (the test loader allowed Lotharek to adjust the duration of the SD card power-on clocking delay, although that strategy was eventually abandoned when he decided it was a 'hardware fault'), but would be ultimately reliant on other people to adequately test the new JED prior to release. Hence her instruction to Lotharek that I be sent the new JED and a means to flash it and test it (I would have needed the '.fs' file, a GoWin platform cable, and a SIDE 3.2 cartridge representative of a production device, rather than the pre-production SIDE 3.2 I had been sent a year earlier, prior to the buffer chips being silently changed for the production run). Of course that didn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 26 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Yes, Candle necessarily produced the JED update and presumably had some notion of what changes might ameliorate the issues we had already attempted to address via the test loader Lotharek asked me for on the morning of 19 Feburary (the test loader allowed Lotharek to adjust the duration of the SD card power-on clocking delay, although that strategy was eventually abandoned when he decided it was a 'hardware fault')... I see. 26 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: but would be ultimately reliant on other people to adequately test the new JED prior to release. Hence her instruction to Lotharek that I be sent the new JED and a means to flash it and test it (I would have needed the '.fs' file, a GoWin platform cable, and a SIDE 3.2 cartridge representative of a production device, rather than the pre-production SIDE 3.2 I had been sent a year earlier, prior to the buffer chips being silently changed for the production run). Of course that didn't happen. OK, so candle fully intended to involve you in the process, but Lotharek just never got around to it, for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 minutes ago, MrFish said: OK, so candle fully intended to involve you in the process, but Lotharek just never got around to it, for whatever reason. This is what I was told (three months after the fact), yes. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 hours ago, tep392 said: I took at look at FJC's website and it has a donate button. He even call's it donationware. I think it is time for me to donate some money considering I've been running his firmware for several years now without any troubles. Thanks for the reminder 👍 I used to donate every year, but for some reason got out of the habit about 4 years back. I still remember how much Jon contributed to the 1088XEL project, helping me immensely on getting the XEL-CF integration to work. And boy did it ever! Having a built-in CF card reader with seamless integrated support, as well as the VGATE and Stereo software switches really made that a complete product. Thanks Jon Now get back to what you love. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Noid Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 5 hours ago, Stephen said: Ask anyone who tried to use Simple Stereo 2 how that worked out. I don't have to ask I just would like you to consider the fact, that there were 3 people involved in these projects responsible for design + initial testing, software and final production. That's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 16 minutes ago, Peri Noid said: I don't have to ask I just would like you to consider the fact, that there were 3 people involved in these projects responsible for design + initial testing, software and final production. That's all. I don't know how many people were involved in Simple Stereo 2, but there were only two people responsible for JED 2.3 for SIDE 3.2 and I was not one of them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Noid Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) I meant Side3 as a whole here. Edited July 23 by Peri Noid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 minutes ago, Peri Noid said: I meant Side3 as a whole here. I didn't realise we were critiquing SIDE3 as a whole. My central complaint concerned the production and distribution of JED 2.3 without my knowledge and without my being offered any opportunity to test it, that sequence of events having turned a routine assignment into a seven week saga, and involvement in the project into stressful ordeal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Noid Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) It shows the weakest point - communication between all the project participants. A lot of bilateral discussion but no global knowledge exchange - this is how it looks like. Edited July 24 by Peri Noid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 49 minutes ago, Peri Noid said: It shows the weakest point - communication between all the project participants. A lot of bilateral discussion but no global knowledge exchange - this is how it looks like. The weakest point is that no-one communicates anything to me at all, but I can certainly agree that project management was woefully inadequate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peri Noid Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 My guess is: @candle assumed that you had heard everything from @lotharek, and vice versa. And none checked if it was true. Period. Ended up in an inevitable catastrophy. The end. 😔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 23 minutes ago, Peri Noid said: My guess is: @candle assumed that you had heard everything from @lotharek, and vice versa. And none checked if it was true. No guesswork is required, since as I wrote a few posts back, Candle claims to be under the impression Lotharek would forward everything to me for testing. I was unable to actively chase the matter up, meanwhile, since I didn't know a new JED had been produced. The End, as you say. Lessons learned. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 Jon, I don't read here much, another person mentioned what was going on. Sorry to hear, from chatting to you I knew the rather one sided deal you were on and the last one to know status. I'd be remiss if I didn't thank you for all the help and time you gave on stuff like this and hope that something other comes along to keep things turning over. I know we fell out over some silly old stuff but you have worked your balls off for the Atari community and we thank you. Paul.. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w1k Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 i want ask - what about support for SIDE 3, movie player, etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) 38 minutes ago, w1k said: what about support for SIDE 3, movie player, etc? I would still like to add video playback and all the other features I had planned. However, this can't reasonably be done until I have completed a second major refactoring of the source code and a general restructuring of the modular functionality of the loader. I had actually started this job a few weeks ago and had reached the point of completely abstracting the loader from the file system drivers, and implementing device IDs for partitions, etc: (Partition sizes are wrong here, but they got fixed immediately afterwards). Potentially this could of course culminate in support for additional file systems. It also occurred to me that it might be convenient to add the ability to edit the APT and MBR partition tables in-situ. It represents an enormous undertaking, however, and is very much a work-in-progress. Some of these improvements might sound a little niche, but I remember the excitement shown by the vendor some months ago when he belatedly started to browse the user manual and discovered that the loader had gained the ability to write to FAT partitions, perform file management tasks, maintain 'favourites', create shortcuts, maintain a file history, etc. However, if the fundaments don't work, none of the extra functionality will be usable anyway, and I think the most appealing thing about the current version of the loader from a marketing point of view was the fact it has the SIDE3 branding at the top of the screen. Edited July 24 by flashjazzcat 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kconan Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, Mclaneinc said: ...but you have worked your balls off for the Atari community and we thank you. I agree, thank you! The Atari 8-bit is my childhood computer, and still means a lot to me. Huge thanks to anyone who continues to develop and add to the platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booterror1973 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Is there no other vendor that can take over with production etc. ? I myself am not buying from Lotharek anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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