Side3 issues....

[Magic Knight]

1 hour ago, Booterror1973 said:

Is there no other vendor that can take over with production etc. ? I myself am not buying from Lotharek anymore.

I would expect this to be up to Candle (the hardware that is). 

With Lotharek as the producer and Primary distributor, I wouldnt hold my breath that this becomes open source or even through anyone else any time soon.

 

[flashjazzcat]

Some IP is owned outright by the manufacturer, some isn't. I would still be happy to work on ExtU1MB, Incognito 3, etc, if they ever showed promise of emerging from the ether, and there's nothing at all preventing the same or another hardware designer from producing workalike or improved devices to which existing Atari-side firmware could easily be ported, providing said hardware represents an original implementation and does not simply lazily and opportunisitcally clone existing designs and provide an unlicensed platform for existing CPLD code and/or firmware.

Edited July 25 by flashjazzcat

[+mytek]

Just thought I'd add a link to this topic started by @candle two years ago. It gives a bit more insight on the kind of behavior and non-professionalism that Lotharek has exhibited in the past with product creators.

 

I know I can be a hot head at times, but I've never threatened to sue anyone 😲  You'll understand this inference if you read a few posts beyond the linked one. Frankly I'm astonished that they were able to patch things up at the time, and keep working together.

[+Stephen]

Yep - there's definitely a commonality to all of this.  Very sad as he has sole rights to produce candle's hardware.  Oh well - I am pretty much at the point of having enough A8 hardware and mods.  Seeing this kind of bullshit really takes the fun out of the hobby as well.

[_The Doctor__]

well if he had given up and stopped producing the hardware of his own volition, such that he has given up the production on his own, at that point production rights no longer happen. Time for reproductions different pcb's and such maybe?

Edited July 28 by _The Doctor__

[flashjazzcat]

15 hours ago, mytek said:

Just thought I'd add a link to this topic started by @candle two years ago. It gives a bit more insight on the kind of behavior and non-professionalism that Lotharek has exhibited in the past with product creators.

A lot of interesting background there concerning the facilitation of the switch to GoWin CPLDs on SIDE 3.2, which happened immediately prior to my presentation of a SIDE 3.1 cartridge (black PCB, Lattice CPLD, JED 1.3) in September 2022 in this video:

Incidentally, SimpleStereo v4 was previewed in the same video (I assume @Stephen enjoyed that part if he saw it):

Of course unpaid promotion of existing and new Candle/Lotharek products is something I undertook frequently at the time.

 

Although the (black) SIDE 3.1 PCB appears to have the same configuration jumpers intended to accomodate both Lattice and GoWin CPLDs, I have never seen a black-PCB SIDE 3.1 with a GoWin CPLD (as I am yet to see a SIDE 3.2 work with a Lattice CPLD, having fitted one and apparently been the only person to do so). The pre-production 'SIDE 3.2' (purple PCB, GoWin CPLD, JED 1.3) I received for testing and evaluation purposes arrived here around a year later (mid 2023?), and this was the only GoWin SIDE3 I encountered prior to a production example being sent here by a customer in May 2024, which had a different JED (version 2.3) to the pre-production unit, different buffer chips, a rev. C GoWin GW1N CPLD, and C30 removed from the board and apparently 'no stuff'. While I was of course busy producing what would become SIDE3 Loader 0.69 in the second half of 2022, it's difficult to imagine how I could have been directly involved in testing or overcoming issues with the GoWin equipped boards when I didn't receive so much as a pre-production unit until well after the current production loader was released, and didn't see a production board until May 2024 (three months after JED 2.3 was produced and silently deployed on all retail SIDE3s), as documented here:

I did of course - using the Lattice-equipped (black PCB) SIDE 3.1 I had already been sent - implement support for increased SRAM capacity, JED versioning information, SIDE3 'Wing' settings and functionality, and make any other tweaks required to reasonably ensure that SIDE 3.1 'worked'.

 

Having purchased a replacement SIDE 3.2 for the customer in the video at my own expense (after attempts to retro-fit his original cartridge with a Lattice CPLD resulted in a non-functioning cartridge), downgraded it, and subsequently returned it to him with his computer in a fully working state, to this day I lack a production SIDE 3.2 cartridge (purple PCB, GW1NC CPLD, current buffer ICs) in any way representative of what was actually being sold before the product was withdrawn and then permanently 'terminated'. I will have one in my hands again next week, however, sent in for JED downgrade by a user who has already posted on the forum after experiencing the exact same issues I documented in my video (as per this screenshot):

The JED downgrade is the exact course of action I suggested in my video and provisionally offered as a service to end-users. And it seems that in spite of his public protestations, the manufacturer himself is offering to do the exact same thing when dealing with customers who purchased JED 2.3 SIDE 3.2s and are experiencing these kinds of problems.

Edited July 28 by flashjazzcat

[flashjazzcat]

Well, my crystal balls were working overtime on January 30 when I made this comment about SIDE3 in the 'SIDE2 Problems' thread.

 

How it started:

Quote

I called out the stability issues within weeks of the hardware being released (hurriedly, IMO; the fact there was a rush-on to get the thing on sale in September 2020 was unavoidable, since I'd worked almost flat-out on a brand-new loader since November the previous year once the task was dropped into my lap), and we had already been warned of this by one of the only beta-testers who wasn't directly or indirectly connected with development. That user's reasonably insightful theories regarding the source of SIDE3 timing issues on some of his own machines were dismissed out of hand at the time by the developer, but later proved - as far as I can see - to be more or less prescient. The sour taste in the mouth of that tester later led him to donate his only SIDE3 to me and wash his hands of the entire matter.

 

There's simply no substitute for getting new hardware out into the hands of users with no vested interest in proclaiming the thing 'ready for sale', but I suspect that apart from anything else, a profusion of cloned hardware and what was regarded as IP theft around the same time caused developers to be a little reluctant to start handing out JED files to anyone who hadn't basically signed an NDA, in effect. 

How it's going:

Edited August 8 by flashjazzcat

[+Stephen]

53 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Well, my crystal balls were working overtime on January 30 when I made this comment about SIDE3 in the 'SIDE2 Problems' thread.

 

How it started:

How it's going:

FWIW - I have at least 11 machines, some PAL, some NTSC.  A few are stock, most have been upgraded.  I own every flash cart made for them with the exception of the Pico cart.  The only inconsistently working device on my entire collection over a few decades of collecting is - can you guess?  The SIDE3.  I was an early adopter so I have the initial batch.  The entire SIDE3 project left a very bad taste in my mouth.  First, it was unreliable.  Second, only a few months after I got mine, I learned of upgraded hardware (8MB vs 2MB, etc.)  Now this.  All around shitty situation.  I hope it doesn't dissuade you from working on future products.  It's certainly put me off of jumping at the chance to be an early adopter of new hardware, at least by a certain group of people making and selling it.

[flashjazzcat]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

I hope it doesn't dissuade you from working on future products.

This was a people problem more than a problem with the hardware, which I considered flawed but otherwise brilliant (I wouldn't have bothered spending my time writing the most complex piece of software I've ever produced specifically for that device, otherwise). In the absence of the SIDE3 'Wing', I consider SIDE 3.0 at least as usable and reliable as any revision which came after it. The most unfortunate thing is that - had the investment of time remained viable for a while longer - I would have pushed ahead with the next software update, but since that represents a genuinely intrusive amount of work, it could only be justified if - say - the same software ended up being ported to some similar workalike device. I will be producing a maintenance update which fixes a few bugs, etc, however, and I feel an obligation to SIDE3 owners to continue doing that.

 

I'm not discouraged from working on future projects at all, anyway - just from working on projects which keep setting off the alarm bells the way SIDE3 has been doing for quite a long time. I saw at least the potential for trouble on the horizon nearly four years ago, and here we are.

Edited August 8 by flashjazzcat

[TJ76]

I was so sad to hear of all of this from yours and Lotharek's videos.  I may not be understanding fully here the entirity of the situation, but does some explanations not require further input from Candle?  FJC, you are clearly most active and keen to communicate with the community here and through your videos, and though often silent, Lotharek has said his piece.  We never hear from Candle though do we?  I noted in a comment elsewhere, I'm not sure where, that his URL stamped on the Side3 cartridges has never been active in my recollection.  

 

I noted I believe Lotharek said there were perhaps some personal issues going on, and he was reluctant to chase for anything, and understand somewhat if that is so, however there are many out there who are keen to see an amicable resolution theough greater cooperation between the three of you, and unsure if we have heard all sides (no pun intended).

 

The three of you are experts in your fields and have done amazing things supporting enhancements to a platform that means a lot to me and so many others. 

 

Reading that this affects the other products such as incognito (Which I am considering acquiring to upgrade the 800 I repaired on my own YT channel) makes no sense beyond things said taken harshly and retribution going beyond scope of the issue (to me)  

 

Can we please see the 'holy trinity' working smoothly together again?

 

 

Edited August 14 by TJ76
typos

[flashjazzcat]

46 minutes ago, TJ76 said:

Can we please see the 'holy trinity' working smoothly together again?

I doubt this is possible now that I have learned that the arrangements were apparently so tenuous that cooperation could be cancelled without notice (which I have still not received, weeks after almost all the FJC firmware products were discontinued and SIDE3 'terminated').

[TJ76]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

I doubt this is possible now that I have learned that the arrangements were apparently so tenuous that cooperation could be cancelled without notice (which I have still not received, weeks after almost all the FJC firmware products were discontinued and SIDE3 'terminated').

Indeed, from the outside opinion of purely an enthusiast, by no means an  an expert, it does seem very odd behaviour given what you brought to the project over many years.  Seems motivations perhaps differ.

 

[tebe]

5 hours ago, TJ76 said:

Can we please see the 'holy trinity' working smoothly together again?

of course

[kiFla]

Last 30 units of SIDE3 with FJC Firmware appeared on Lotharek's shop.

Edited August 26 by kiFla

[flashjazzcat]

4 hours ago, kiFla said:

Last 30 units of SIDE3 with FJC Firmware appeared on Lotharek's shop.

Yes: I just noticed this last night. Obviously the desire to shift 3K GBP worth of SIDE3s overpowers indignation and the desire to occupy the moral highground. I look forward to receiving my commission for those and for fifty Incognito Golds over the coming months.

[kiFla]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

Yes: I just noticed this last night. Obviously the desire to shift 3K GBP worth of SIDE3s overpowers indignation and the desire to occupy the moral highground. I look forward to receiving my commission for those and for fifty Incognito Golds over the coming months.

But they have reduced price, so maybe your commission is in danger.

[flashjazzcat]

3 hours ago, kiFla said:

But they have reduced price, so maybe your commission is in danger.

Lotharek paid me 'counts' (as he calls them) a couple of weeks ago:

Five SIDE3, five U1MB. I've gone through the counts for the past few months, however, and can find only a couple of instances of FJC-Incognito, and not a single instance of 'Incognito Gold'.

 

So let's hope Lotharek is a man of his word and assume commission for thirty SIDE3 cartridges and fifty Incognito Golds will be forthcoming in the near future, since he has no right to sell Incognito with my firmware pre-installed or SIDE3 at all (mine being the only firmware which exists for it) without paying me the agreed royalties. I haven't really had much negative to say about the end of cooperation since I made my video two months ago, but this could easily change.

[candle]

29 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Lotharek paid me 'counts' (as he calls them) a couple of weeks ago:

and i've declined to accept any transfers from lotharek, and rejected last paymend he did on my account

I'm not going to cooperate with him again, and keeping all my IP as they are, leaving PCBWay or/and any other individual to sell and produce projects I still have IP right for

 

[flashjazzcat]

55 minutes ago, candle said:

I'm not going to cooperate with him again

Me neither, but I could use what commission is due, and am happy to accept it (and I feel entitled to it, especially since my greatest crime here appears to be identifying problems and attempting to bring them to light).

[magnusfalkirk]

28 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Me neither, but I could use what commission is due, and am happy to accept it (and I feel entitled to it, especially since my greatest crime here appears to be identifying problems and attempting to bring them to light).

I can completely understand wanting what is owed to you for the work you put in. Also you were just pointing out problems that needed fixing. Apparently he didn't care too hear what you had to say, which is an indictment of his attitude to the Atari Community, IMHO.

[+mytek]

6 hours ago, magnusfalkirk said:

I can completely understand wanting what is owed to you for the work you put in. Also you were just pointing out problems that needed fixing. Apparently he didn't care too hear what you had to say, which is an indictment of his attitude to the Atari Community, IMHO.

I got similar feedback from Lotharek when I reviewed what he was calling an HQ Video Cable for the A8, and my review pointed out definite issues with the cable which were 100% true.

[+tf_hh]

On 8/27/2024 at 4:44 AM, mytek said:

I got similar feedback from Lotharek when I reviewed what he was calling an HQ Video Cable for the A8, and my review pointed out definite issues with the cable which were 100% true.

Same here. Regarding the "HQ cable" I´ve discussed already before, he tried to tell my that I´m not able to analyze what "quality" is 😞

 

A lot of his "manuals" (sorry, but the documentation of ALL items is a joke) has flaws or aren´t complete enough, for example the Spectre AV won´t work in all 2600 machine with the jumper settings shown. I´ve sent a correction notice with explanation, but - as always - nothing happens. Five years ago I found also an small error in one of the VBXE info where to grab signals for the different machines, nothing happens. At some time it was corrected than, years later. I gave up.

 

 

[PE1PQX]

From what I read in this topic, Mr. Lotharek is not listening to any comments and/or corrections and/or valid reviews.

Also I have read a topic started by @candle that he has put his PCB's on PCBway site as a project-page.
see

The connection with Lotharek is gone via this route.

So sad this is happening...

Oh well, I have sent in my Side3 to @flashjazzcat, and am waiting for his judgement.

Edited August 30 by PE1PQX

[Peri Noid]

One question bothers me... The 3.2 version has been sold with a problematic JED installed, as we know. At the same time, @flashjazzcat states, that there exists a JED, that seems to solve many problems (if I got it right). If yes - why hasn't it been used by default? Why the faulty one?

Or - is it so that a "faulty" jed is not in fact faulty - it simply works under certain conditions. And if it doesn't, another one should be used. But I must assume then, that this "another" doesn't work in some other cases, which makes it not a good candidate for "the default one".

[candle]

in a perfect world a customer having an issue would contact the shop one bought the item from and asked for help, and if shop coulnd't solve the issue it would contact the designer, unfortunatly this is not the case

all changes in CPLD firmware were due to this manufacturer asking for them from one reason (chip shortage for example) or another (being cheap) - in any case it was either pinpong back and forth when i couldn't reproduce the issue on the equipment i had, or troublesome computer was sent to me to test it and prepare something that works - this was the case of "upgrading" jed from 1.3 to 2.3 for gowin chips - I was sent manufacturer's test machine - a heavly butchered and somewhat modified atari 65/130xe motherboard with lots of ZIF sockets, SRAM module and (in)famous phi2 fixer

before even attepmting any work i've removed what i could from it (ie not being soldered permanently in), did my part, tested on what i had around in that moment (secam XEGS, NTSC 600XL and 65XE)

this was like in february i think?

initial side tests were done on everything i have or could borrow, plus lots of machines Jon had at hand - and this is usual way of me doing things - with lab power supply powering Atari from 4.2 up to 5.5V - just in case as I know, it can influence stability of a system b a lot

 

unfortunatly, 

despite of me asking for additional tests and sending modified device or fs file (gowin doesn't use jed files) it did not happend

 

I would expect to get informed on any issues or errors in documentation, so i could correct them just for completness and my own knowledge, but again - doesn't happend

instead, I hear from random people that side doesn't work - and I would be glad to help them out and do something about it IF they had that non-working side i could diagnose - nah, they don't have it, but read about side not working on forums, and repeat this - whether true of false to every one bothering to listen

 

I belived this is just Polish-specific and just patiently waited for manufacturer to inform me about issues - nope, did not happend either

 

Anywas, we're on hw rev 3.3 now, and for side 3.2 on gw ver 2.4 - nothing to write home about though, and since i can't reproduce what FJC is experiencing I need to think of another troubleshooting approach

fun fact observed - if I change one LS08 to another LS08 chips situation can change dramatically 

another fun fact - side3 doesn't really use phi2 - it locks on falling edge of it, and regenerates 56mhz clock synchronous to phi2 and this clock with counter synchronized to phi2 falling edge is used for triggering various events inside CPLD

ie memory read and writes for DMA when phi2 is LOW, getting whole cartridge isolated from atari bus and doing transfer within 120ns window, making sure memory used on side3.2 is refreshed (this is a pseudo-static RAM) and getting data from the card

there is a lot behind the scenes here, and in that regard, this is way more complicated that making just bus arbitrer and soft-cored or hard-cored CPU doing all the hard work behind the scenes

here all the work is done by 6502

 

anyways - if manufacturer wants to be a pcbway of poland as someone pointed out, i think i can try my luck with pcbway of china, or anyone willing to manufacture what i design by oneself as currently i don't have the luxury of doing this myself - despite of having smd assembly line - not so fancy and expensive as others, but still i think it is quite capable of doing anything i design for a hobby