Side3 issues....

[Peri Noid]

So it was due to lack of communication - the easiest problem to overcome if there is a will to do so... A great pitty, I must say 😥

[flashjazzcat]

Lack of communication is more of a symptom, IMO. It's not as if we're talking about three people who simply never thought to talk to one another if the software developer sends the manufacturer a series of private messages about the primary issue which eventually end up eliciting no reaction whatsoever after said manufacturer gets upset about some peripheral issue which he claims - in as many words - prevents him from sending out the platform cable the firmware developer had at that point been waiting five weeks to receive. It's fairly obvious to me that complex devices like SIDE3 which ended up with a lot of teething troubles and invited a lot of customer support emails were ultimately regarded as too much hassle, especially after misguided attempts to reduce manufacturing costs (as anyone with an oita of technical insight or familarity with the host platform could have predicted) resulted in the new hardware behaving completely differently to its predecessor. Such fatigue was probably in direct conflict with the enduring desire to keep collecting the money, the latter finally being overcome (for a while) by the indignation caused by my daring to deploy criticism.

[+mytek]

This topic has been interesting to follow, and it seems there are two camps being represented. One camp accepts that a lot of things resulted in the relationship going irreparably wrong, and sadly the end result is that the SIDE3 will no longer be available. The other camp continues to hold out hope for some sort of resurrection of the SIDE3, and that it can perhaps be fixed by better communication or mediation.

 

I'm in the first camp. For better or worse it is what it is, and has formed the new reality. It reminds me of my experience back in the good old days where I always wanted a 1450XLD, but the various players and the take over by Jack put an end to that. No amount of wishing this or that was going to change that reality, so I just had to suck it up and accept that it wasn't going to happen. The SIDE3 as we knew it is gone. Will something take its place? Perhaps, but I wouldn't count on it coming from Lotharek

[+tf_hh]

Well, I think, these problems always occur when former private tinkerer try to grow to a big business man. Some years everything raises and went fine, but today there are a lot of people doing hardware - and some of them a way better. Today only soldering and offering ideas from others isn´t enough in such a niche. Of course I don´t know, but I think Lotharek hasn´t a regurlarly job anymore like most other hardware vendors in the retro community scene.

Spirit, kindness and helpful acting to the community isn´t any longer possible if you need the income from these activities to survive. So I think the way Candle with his projects acts now is the future for all developers. But this is only my opinion.

 

[ascrnet]

Someone already sent to do SIDE 3.3 that Candle published?

 

My doubt is the firmware 3.2 works in this version or you must wait longer for a new firmware?

[candle]

not so much longer, but i need one assembled

[cathrynm]

On 8/30/2024 at 4:12 AM, candle said:

 

anyways - if manufacturer wants to be a pcbway of poland as someone pointed out, i think i can try my luck with pcbway of china, or anyone willing to manufacture what i design by oneself as currently i don't have the luxury of doing this myself - despite of having smd assembly line - not so fancy and expensive as others, but still i think it is quite capable of doing anything i design for a hobby

 

 

Looking forward to seeing and possibly buying whatever you and Mr. FlashJazzCat come up with. I'm quite pleased with the Incognito and its firmware for Atari 800.  This has been rock solid for years for me.

[Booterror1973]

I still hope something also can be done for my Side3.2 that it will be stable.

 

[+scorpio_ny]

20 hours ago, Booterror1973 said:

I still hope something also can be done for my Side3.2 that it will be stable.

 

I believe that @flashjazzcat has the ability to flash a more stable version of the JED file. Maybe you can contact him?

 

[flashjazzcat]

1 hour ago, scorpio_ny said:

I believe that @flashjazzcat has the ability to flash a more stable version of the JED file. Maybe you can contact him?

 

I already have it here and am waiting for something reliable to flash to it, the JED 1.3 downgrade not having resulted in much improvement.

[LadyErrant]

Alright, I bought one of the Final 30 side3 carts. It arrived today. It has been...an ordeal. I'm not here to place blame or point fingers, just to describe what I'm seeing.

 

First, a description of my setup. I've got an 800xl with FujiNet, Ultimate 1MB, VBXE, and Rapidus. I also swapped my 74ls08 for a 74f08 in preperation for the upgrade. I know this is a potentially volatile combo but its been working reliably for a couple of years now. I had the SRAM module but had never installed it since I'd never encountered the stability problems. Engineer Proverb: If it aint broke, don't fix it.

I got a SIDE3 so I could have more space in one volume. Its nice when developing to have everything right there and not switch disk or images in the FujiNet. When it arrived I immediately had problems, but realized I hadn't installed the side 3 firmware on the u1mb.  My mistake, fixed, and afterword I was able to partition and use the APT volumes. But... in the side3 loader there was a lot of graphical corruption. The time and date in particular were just going nuts. This was in all CPU modes. I figured DRAM, so I put in the SRAM module and pulled out the DRAM ICs. Mine is one of the models with all ICs socketed from the factory, for which I am eternally grateful.

 

That fixed the corruption, and I thought I was home free. However the SDX on the cart didnt have a MERGE directive in it and try as I might I couldn't get it to see my config.sys or .cfg files in SPARTA.DOS. I tried flashing the latest side 3 SDX image which failed after 2 banks, and then worked all the way through after a reboot. I decided to leave well enough alone for the rest of today.

I use my 800xl daily as the keyboard for my PC (a little bit of software I developed for both the 800xl and for linux that uses the FujiNet), so if I encounter and more issues I'll report on it.

 

I do want to thank both Candle and flashjazzcat for their amazing work.
 

[Peri Noid]

3 hours ago, LadyErrant said:

However the SDX on the cart didnt have a MERGE directive in it and try as I might I couldn't get it to see my config.sys or .cfg files in SPARTA.DOS.

Why don't you set the U1MB setting to use a CONFIG.SYS of your choice on a designated partition? With such combo, it's much more convenient to use SDX on U1MB than on Side3. 

[LadyErrant]

8 hours ago, Peri Noid said:

Why don't you set the U1MB setting to use a CONFIG.SYS of your choice on a designated partition? With such combo, it's much more convenient to use SDX on U1MB than on Side3. 

I did try that, but for me the config.sys menu item was completely ignored. Setting it to "D1:" didn't change the behavior at all. I was able to make a SDX rom image with my modified config.sys and flash it to the side3, so I've got s_vbxe back. In the process, though, I lost the SDX rom on u1mb. UFLASH won't work at all with the SIDE3 inserted, even if I manually specify the device. I took the SIDE3 out and tried to reflash the SDX rom from the same firmware ATR that I'd installed the side3 PBI BIOS from, but it would only get about 10% into the process before giving an error. I retried several times with no success. I've got a eeprom flasher so after work I might just make a backup of my current rom contents and then try reflashing it with that.

 

I've noticed something else odd, no matter what position the switch on the front of SIDE3 is, SDX will not automatically boot. The green LED on the SIDE3 lights, and stays lit no matter what until I go into the U1MB menu and select loader. Trying to press "L" at boot has only worked a couple of times. Also, the ELSA assembler is acting... weird. On one source file it complains that the ".out" directive is invalid, another file with the same directive doesn't give that error but the system locks up during assembly.

 

Anyway, I'm running my keyboard bridge right now and about to start another day of work. I realize I forgot to post version information about this SIDE3, so I'll do that after work.

[Peri Noid]

Turn off the PBI BIOS feature in U1MB to allow Side3 to enter its loader or SDX depending on its switch.

[LadyErrant]

9 hours ago, Peri Noid said:

Turn off the PBI BIOS feature in U1MB to allow Side3 to enter its loader or SDX depending on its switch.

Thank you, that indeed got SDX starting right up.

I'm not 100% sure the issues I'm seeing are SIDE3 related. I just pulled the flash from my U1MB and dumped it, that went fine, but when I went to flash the image from the firmware update zip on to it I started getting errors a few pages in. I'm starting to suspect that this NOR flash is dying. I turned off verification and let it go to completion and got a booting system out of it, but with a suspect flash I can't be sure anything I'm seeing is related to SIDE3. Oh well, new ICs on the way from mouser.

[+scorpio_ny]

23 hours ago, LadyErrant said:

First, a description of my setup. I've got an 800xl with FujiNet, Ultimate 1MB, VBXE, and Rapidus. I also swapped my 74ls08 for a 74f08 in preperation for the upgrade. I know this is a potentially volatile combo but it's been working reliably for a couple of years now. I had the SRAM module but had never installed it since I'd never encountered the stability problems. Engineer Proverb: If it aint broke, don't fix it

When you attempt the changes, which mode you have the Rapidus in? Do you have it deactivated before attempting any of the flash updates? 

[LadyErrant]

13 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

When you attempt the changes, which mode you have the Rapidus in? Do you have it deactivated before attempting any of the flash updates? 

while flashing the u1mb I was in "classic" 6502 mode. Since the NOR flash was giving errors outside the u1mb I dont suspect the rapidus had anything to do with that, just a bad flash IC. It happens.

[+scorpio_ny]

26 minutes ago, LadyErrant said:

while flashing the u1mb I was in "classic" 6502 mode. Since the NOR flash was giving errors outside the u1mb I dont suspect the rapidus had anything to do with that, just a bad flash IC. It happens.

I missed part that you were flashing externally with a burner. It does suck when IC's faill. It great that you have the skillset to repair it yourself. Let us know how it goes!

[LadyErrant]

The new flash isn't here yet, but I've been trying to pinpoint why ELSA wouldn't run. Would start assembling and then stop part way in and the system would hang. I ran XRAM repeatedly for 30 minutes after the machine had been running all day, perfect every time. Fastbasic would also hang, so I pulled the Rapidus off and put my 6502 in its place, no joy. That ruled out just about everything but the 64k base ram, the last common denominator. I pulled the SRAM module off, put my original DRAM back and both fastbasic and ELSA are working fine now. At some point I'd like to drag out my logic analyzer and try and figure out whats going on but its currently wired up to a project for $dayjob and I dont feel like taking that apart right now. At least I've got my assembler back, now I can keep working on my  "Intro to VBXE" talk I want to give at the Interim Computer Festival in October.

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

2 hours ago, LadyErrant said:

 I pulled the SRAM module off, put my original DRAM

 

On my system, Rapidus, IDE+, SIDE3.1, and software including the ELSA assembler work correctly. Usually, SRAM problems are due to installation issues. I've fixed a few such installations. The two most common problems are:

• Incorrect routing of CI and EXTSEL signal connections—they should be routed on top without creating loops to connect them somewhere below, instead going to the nearest possible location. Personally, on the XE board, I connect the CI signal to a via next to the capacitor on the left side of the MMU, and I connect EXTSEL to the pull-up resistor on the right side of Freddie.
• I've also seen installations where EXTSEL was only connected between the SRAM and VBXE and Rapidus without being connected to the mainboard—this, of course, will not work.

 

Unfortunately, I can't say that everything always works perfectly for me. I have a 600XL at home with Ultimate 1MB, equipped with SRAM, where I have connected O2 with Ultimate 1MB directly from SRAM via the solder point, which is a mistake because it should probably be connected to BO2. This causes errors in memory access under SpartaDOS X. I'll get back to this issue and fix it when I have some free time. Until now, for the past three years, it seemed like everything was perfect (the image is perfect too). But unfortunately, as we can see, it's not.

Edited September 7 by Piotr D. Kaczorowski

[flashjazzcat]

10 hours ago, LadyErrant said:

I pulled the SRAM module off, put my original DRAM back and both fastbasic and ELSA are working fine now.

Not surprising, since SRAM seems to have quite a big impact on the characteristics of the system bus, and despite being advertised as part of the magical stability recipe for SIDE3, Rapidus, etc, isn't always necessary or advisable. Given the choice between fitting the SRAM board and replacing a couple of bad DRAMs in a machine which requires it, I tend to opt for replacing the DRAMs since I have no idea what unforeseen issues SRAM might create further down the line. The fact Lotharek's test machine was almost certainly equipped with SRAM and other 'timing fixers' accounts for the fact he was happy to sign off a SIDE 3.2 JED update which was quantifiably less generally reliable (judging by my own experiences and those of several SIDE 3.2 owners for whom a downgrade improved the situation) than the JED it replaced once it found its way out of his workshop.

 

'Works here' and 'you must have installed it wrong' are of course part of a refrain which has been ringing out for years which it comes to some of the devices under discussion, the presence of which is generally unhelpful when it comes to trying to isolate issues for which SIDE3 is actually responsible.

Edited September 7 by flashjazzcat

[LadyErrant]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

'Works here' and 'you must have installed it wrong' are of course part of a refrain which has been ringing out for years which it comes to some of the devices under discussion, the presence of which is generally unhelpful when it comes to trying to isolate issues for which SIDE3 is actually responsible.

For what its worth I loaded up about 1000 files on my SD card and repeatedly loaded the directory. No corruption issues in the list at all. 

 

I remember now that I forgot to post version information. This SIDE3 reports as software version 0.69 210123, jed 1.3 and HW rev 3.1. Its a purple PCB, gowin CPLD and the sticker in back says SIDE 3.2, JED 1.3, and a date of August 27, 2024

[flashjazzcat]

1 hour ago, LadyErrant said:

For what its worth I loaded up about 1000 files on my SD card and repeatedly loaded the directory. No corruption issues in the list at all. 

 

I remember now that I forgot to post version information. This SIDE3 reports as software version 0.69 210123, jed 1.3 and HW rev 3.1. Its a purple PCB, gowin CPLD and the sticker in back says SIDE 3.2, JED 1.3, and a date of August 27, 2024

Thanks. This indicates that Lotharek has now reverted to JED 1.3 when flogging the last of the GoWin SIDE3s, and I'm pleased you got lucky and the device appears to be working well with your system. That's the JED Lotharek was (hilariously) offering to replace with JED 2.3 earlier in the year if customers sent their devices back.

 

EDIT: Just checked the product page again and it indeed states that JED 1.3 is on the remainder of the stock.

Edited September 7 by flashjazzcat

[Piotr D. Kaczorowski]

@flashjazzcat,

 

Quote

SRAM seems to have quite a big impact on the characteristics of the system bus

 

Perhaps I will check those characteristics even tomorrow. I have an 800XL board prepared to install VBXL and U1MB. The DRAM memory was faulty. I have a new set of DRAMs, but also SRAM (that was ordered for this project by the client). 

 

My belief in the superiority of SRAM over DRAM so far stems solely from the fact that, theoretically, SRAM should be a more uniform solution. In contrast to DRAM, which can be 1. from different manufacturers, 2. in different configurations (1-bit or 4-bit chips), 3. with or without Freddie on the board, 4. and they may have been partially replaced over the last 40 years in repairs – meaning they can be quite diverse.

Disadvantages of SRAM: 1. There can be different versions (SRAM v2, v3, v4) – so this does not mean we have a uniform solution. 2. There may be a faulty PCB design causing EMI interference or crosstalk on the bus.  Presumably, the SRAM should be reviewed in this regard, because even the O2 solder point, which was intended to facilitate the installation of U1MB, is on the board (it probably shouldn't be there at all, as U1MB should rather be connected to BO2). Additionally, this signal runs across the entire board from left to right, previously supported by a pull-up resistor (with a value that was available during assembly within the acceptable range, but not necessarily consistent).

 

A clear advantage of DRAM is that it is extremely difficult to install it incorrectly.

 

In my opinion, SRAM was originally designed for the 600XL (although I could be wrong). Version V2 did not have the EXTSEL solder point, and for CI on SRAM, it is needed to connect not the CASINH signal, but the sum of the CASINH and EXTSEL signals. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any documentation that mentions anything like this.

So, it seems that installing SRAM is not as straightforward as it might appear.

 

 

[Mazzspeed]

I've got a Lotharek 64k SRAM upgrade fitted to my 600XL running U1MB and a SIDE 3.0, it's honestly never given me a moments trouble.