Ha! They are 'Monsters', not 'Ghosts'!

[+Stephen]

Forget the ghosts.  What the heck was PacMan supposed to be?  Don't tell me a Puck

[Rhomaios]

This is all kind of ridiculous. Ghosts are monsters. If you look in collected encyclopedias of monsters, you'll often find an entry for ghosts. Even in English, ghost doesn't have to mean "spirit of the dead." Just think of spirit of the dead. Likewise, Thai people often talk about "ghosts," but these too are supernatural creatures.

 

Since obake can be both a dead spirit and some supernatural creature, I'd say Iwatani's Casper reference gets the nod toward the former. However, it's probably best not to think about it too deeply. They're just games, after all. No one plays Paperboy and thinks, "This is so unrealistic! This would never happen on a real route!" So why are people hung up over walls and ghost legs?

[+darryl1970]

5 hours ago, RevEng said:

??? he's saying Casper was an inspiration for the creatures, so he can "connect [it] to the current culture" ??? Either you're using a different definition for "inspiration" than most people, or you're calling him a liar.

Not at all calling him a liar. I feel like the question marks were either genuine question or just a reason to tell me that I am off from most people. I hope it was in the kinder spirit, but I feel that either is asking me to explain myself. I will try to explain what fueled my thought process, as there was an actual thought process. I agree, @RevEng, that the only true way to know any specifics about Toru's original inspiration would be to ask him. My point was that he has often made the Obake reference, but this is the first and only time I have seen him mention Casper. Some ideas do not translate well between languages. I will try to explain the personal connection that triggered my response and what I meant by cultural connection.

 

He has stated often that the enemies were inspired by a generic mythical creature, like Obake. I think to a particular conversation with an Asian coworker, who explained how we connect things differently in the West. Sometimes there's an equivalent, and sometimes it's a matter of comparing objects of similar nature. I created a sign, using Google Translate. It was supposed to say, "Buy your Girl Scout cookies here." She laughed and said that it actually translated closer to, "Buy your boy biscuits here." She still knew what it meant though, because she said that's how it is sometimes when there isn't an exact equivalent. (My name was a trip to spell out also.) I was suggestion this concept, which I have experienced personally.

 

My "inspiration" comment was more in how generic concepts might get connected to a group of people who have adopted "ghost". My best example is that I may have modeled my game enemy as a pet. My pet may have been a dog, so I might use, "Like Clifford" as an example. However, if I was addressing a group of cat lovers (or people who have taken on the popular stance that cats are the only pets), I may use, "Like Garfield" as an example too. They are both shows I watched growing up, and they both fit an example of a pet. Each example connects my original idea of a pet to the culture being addressed.

 

I thought this was a fun topic. I guess I read that wrong. I am more passionate that the original history is preserved. If Toru would come out and say that monster was not what he wanted, it should be recorded that it was originally presented that way and not the intention of the creator. I found it more interesting the true subject of the video. I found it a bonus that they used Pac-Man as the catalyst.

 

 

[+darryl1970]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Forget the ghosts.  What the heck was PacMan supposed to be?  Don't tell me a Puck

Google Translate suggests, "Bachmann".  I saw a video where he mentioned the missing slice of pizza, but read a different article where he said that wasn't the case.

[RevEng]

1 hour ago, darryl1970 said:

My "inspiration" comment was more in how generic concepts might get connected to a group of people who have adopted "ghost". I may have modeled my game enemy as a pet. My pet may have been a dog, so I might use, "Like Clifford" as an example. However, if I was addressing a group of cat lovers (or people who have taken on the popular stance that cats are the only pets), I may use, "Like Garfield" as an example too. They are both shows I watched growing up, and they both fit an example of a pet. Each example connects my original idea of pet to the current culture.

 

I don't care to debate the topic if it's not going to be fun anymore, but I wanted to at least explain that there was thought behind what I shared. I wasn't trying to argue, but show appreciation for the video and history.

You're inserting the word "like", which isn't a word he used. He said that Casper was an inspiration, not that the obake in his game were "like Casper". Those are two very different claims. Would you claim your pet game was "inspired by Clifford" or "inspired by Garfield" even when you actually didn't think have those characters in during the creation? I don't think you would, because it's not a truthful claim. That's why there were question marks in my previous post - your dismissing his very specific claim as meaning something entirely different means you don't think think he's making a truthful claim in the first place. (if you want to dismiss his position as being errors in translation, then I'd say the same dubious translation suspicion also applies to the marketing folks who translated the obake as "monsters".)

 

It's all fun on my end, but I think part of the fun is challenging positions when there's a point to be made, especially on such a frivolous subject.

 

[edit - I tend to be blunt with my assertions, even in play, so apologies for taking the fun out of it for you.]

 

[+darryl1970]

When I read the post, I know what I want to say. After I type something, I read it, and it's like somebody else typed it. I may try to explain later.

 

I get what you're saying about "like" though.

 

I guess I am saying that it's the first time I've seen him say that. I thought it was a "like", because this was stuck in my head "Japanese youngsters really wanted "ghost" type characters – not necessarily modeled on creatures, but things that don't really exist in this world. Even within animation, they want characters that are the products of the writer's imaginations. "

 

Also, the personal experience I shared above influenced my hesitation to take the quote literally. Also, being a HUGE Eddie Van Halen fan made me realize that geniuses contradict themselves often. Likewise, I've read Iwatani share the pizza inspiration story, and I read him say it was just a fun story but not actually the case.

 

Something just seems off about Casper "the friendly ghost". I am just saying it seems a little out of context and doesn't match his other interviews. While it doesn't use the word "like", it states, "by Casper, or Obake no Q-Taro". Again, I've seen Obake mentioned before. It's the first time for Casper, and the "or" makes it weird to me. Doesn't mean I care to die on that hill. I am just saying that it doesn't convince me that this is exactly as intended.

 

For me, it doesn't really matter what he intended. I do not think the original inspiration changes the concrete fact that it was released one way. There's no debating that the Japanese and US machines used the terminology, as well as early merch and flyers. I think it's important to recognize history. As I may have mentioned before, if Iwatani came out and said that he intended them to be ghosts, I would want that to be included in the history. That wouldn't change the history, that the game released them as monsters, but the names changed over time.

 

@RevEng you didn't "kill the fun" for me. I just got lost in our overlapping threads and misread it a little.

 

 

[Jinks]

Ghosts are monsters. Pac man was cheese.  Well maybe not. Lol

We did call them power pellets. I remember at recess drawing mazes on the chalkboard for a few months with friends in 83 or 84. The teachers had coloured chalk. Pink blue yellow white. They eventually stopped us as a waste of chalk and to go out for recess instead. 

Never knew where my nerd friend went. We played pac man on our 2600 systems. 

 

[+darryl1970]

4 hours ago, Jinks said:

Ghosts are monsters. Pac man was cheese.  Well maybe not. Lol

4 hours ago, Jinks said:

We did call them power pellets.

The 2600 version referred to dots as "Video Wafers", and energizers were "Power Pellets". I think the cartoon may have borrowed the power pellet term, but not video wafer.

4 hours ago, Jinks said:

I remember at recess drawing mazes on the chalkboard for a few months with friends in 83 or 84. The teachers had coloured chalk. Pink blue yellow white. They eventually stopped us as a waste of chalk and to go out for recess instead. 

That makes me smile. I was cleaning out my parents' attic. Mom saved all of my early school stuff in bags. I found some old folders with Pac-Man, Ms Pac-Man, Mario, and Donkey Kong drawn all over them. Brought back a lot of memories.

 

[Jinks]

2 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

 

That makes me smile. I was cleaning out my parents' attic. Mom saved all of my early school stuff in bags. I found some old folders with Pac-Man, Ms Pac-Man, Mario, and Donkey Kong drawn all over them. Brought back a lot of memories.

 

I forgot about drawing on the board till I read this topic. It is crazy to think all the stuff a person forgets as the years pass by.

Some day I should look for my old school stuff and see if any stuff like that is around. I found a pac man pencil case years ago and my pac man stuffed toy but that was about all I can remember. Probably had drawings somewhere too. Not that good as I am not an artist. But with Pac-Man you do not really need to be. 

[zzip]

On 4/24/2022 at 3:40 PM, darryl1970 said:

As a child in the arcade, it was a BIG deal when Blinky's fleshy leg (and later body) was revealed. Only the kids that weren't allowed to go to the arcade, or people who got involved after the history was rewritten, called them ghosts.

 

And the third intermission made it even clearer.

 

Also, what kind of game would it be if they were really ghosts. Ghosts go through walls. Pac-Man would be the only one to follow the maze. It doesn't make sense on many levels

Yeah somehow I always knew they weren't ghosts.   I had forgotten about these intermissions, and suppose it could be part of why I'd get mildly annoyed when people called them ghosts.    Like many people,  Pac Man was a game I fell in love with the first time I saw...    so any knock-off product that wasn't true to the art or the lore of the game wouldn't fly with me.   Didn't care for the cartoon much for that reason and found the 2600 version heart-breaking.

 

On 4/24/2022 at 3:40 PM, darryl1970 said:

I find it very disheartening that (as they state in the video) culture has changed history to the point where people can be presented with fact and still deny it. I guess a lot of people weren't good enough to get to the Apple level in the arcade game, or they were not allowed to play in the arcade.

I think this is how some of the Mandela Effects happen.    The culture repeats things so much that everybody believed them.   Like "Luke, I am your father" got repeated so many times people believe that's what Vader said in ESB when he actually said "No, I am your father".   When confronted with that some people find it easier to believe that history changed rather than they've been lied to their entire life.

[Dauber]

On 4/25/2022 at 3:10 PM, Chris+++ said:

Now. Is there such an album title as Led Zeppelin IV?

 

I do believe a podcast recently addressed this...and Chicago II. And The White Album.

[Lost Monkey]

11 hours ago, darryl1970 said:

The 2600 version referred to dots as "Video Wafers"...

 

 

So... the characters in the game knew they were in a video game?

[pacman000]

Japanese words for monster, via Google Translate:

 

Translations of monster

Part of speech	Translation	Reverse translations	Frequency help_outline
Noun	怪物	monster,  monstrosity
	怪獣	monster
	化け物	monster,  ghost,  goblin,  apparition,  phantom
	お化け	monster,  goblin,  apparition
	化物	monster,  ghost,  goblin,  apparition,  phantom
	野獣	beast,  wild animal,  monster
	天魔	monster,  evil spirit,  daemon,  demon,  devil,  fiend
	変形	deformation,  variation,  modification,  transformation,  deformity,  monster

[Rhomaios]

2 hours ago, Dauber said:

I do believe a podcast recently addressed this...and Chicago II. And The White Album.

And the Black Album, and Seal II, and...etc.

[Chris+++]

17 hours ago, Dauber said:

I do believe a podcast recently addressed this...and Chicago II. And The White Album.

 

Indeed it did. And it happened to be absolutely correct on those points.

 

 

[pacman000]

For completeness, here are Japanese words for Ghost, again via Google Translate:

 

Translations of ghost

Part of speech	Translation	Reverse translations	Frequency help_outline
Noun	ゴースト	ghost
	幽霊	ghost,  phantom,  specter,  apparition,  spectre
	亡霊	ghost,  apparition,  dead,  departed spirits
	霊	soul,  ghost,  departed soul
	妖怪	specter,  apparition,  ghost,  phantom,  spectre
	魂	soul,  spirit,  ghost,  anima,  shadow,  apparition
	化け物	monster,  ghost,  goblin,  apparition,  phantom
	死霊	ghost,  spirit of a dead person
	精霊	spirit,  ghost,  soul
	化物	monster,  ghost,  goblin,  apparition,  phantom
	幽鬼	ghost,  revenant,  spirit,  departed soul
	魂魄	soul,  spirit,  ghost,  anima,  shadow,  apparition
	妖魔	ghost,  apparition
	変化	change,  variation,  changing,  transition,  alteration,  ghost
	物の怪	specter,  ghost,  spectre

[Trebor]

Coincidentally, I recently came across the best explanation I have read which harmonizes with creator's Toru Iwatani description, and makes sense for both what is experienced in the intermission with Blinky, as well as when the ghost monsters are eaten after turned purple-blue (No crawling body, just eyes):

 

The original game called the creatures monsters when they are chasing you, and called them ghosts when they are running from you, after you eat an energizer.

 

I have always call them 'ghost monsters' and now it makes even more sense to me. 

[+Defender_2600]

On 4/25/2022 at 5:25 PM, Defender_2600 said:

They are monsters who have a ghost sheet but will become ghosts after being eaten 

 

 

1 hour ago, Trebor said:

Coincidentally, I recently came across the best explanation I have read which harmonizes with creator's Toru Iwatani description, and makes sense for both what is experienced in the intermission with Blinky, as well as when the ghost monsters are eaten after turned purple-blue (No crawling body, just eyes):

 

The original game called the creatures monsters when they are chasing you, and called them ghosts when they are running from you, after you eat an energizer.

 

I have always call them 'ghost monsters' and now it makes even more sense to me. 

[+MrFish]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:51 AM, HammR25 said:

All I see in the video is a guy who did a good job researching his topic and presenting it.

 

Over-researched/over-presented a "who really cares that much?" subject (just like the overworked -- I need attention, like a girl -- hair-wad sticking out from the front of his hat). The video could have been over in less than 30 seconds.

 

"So... like... in the game Pac-Man, the antagonists have mostly been known as Ghosts for all these years; but in reality, they were originally called Monsters by the creators".... "Oh, ok... interesting. They do look like ghosts, though; and ghosts are a type of monster, generally speaking". Finis.

 

I watched about 4 minutes before hitting the "go away" button.

 

[ZylonBane]

Well at least you got to marvel at his froody kneeless pants.