It’s a miracle the nes sold like hot cakes

[Ecernosoft]

6 hours ago, Silver Back said:

By the time Scrapyard Dog came out roughly 3 Super Mario games had been released. I wouldn't say it was "once super Mario released" but more like an extremely late response to the popularity of platformers.  Never the less I think the game gets judged harshly and I've actually enjoyed it on occasion but I don't believe they ever intended Scrapyard Dog to be their mascot. 

And that's why It's Conner time exists! To fill that "Mascot platformer" game for the 7800. I understand ICT1 and ICT2 are very shallow but ICT3 will be a much bigger, better game. I mean, look at ICT1 7800 and then ICT3 7800. Same system. Still stock. (Minus the POKEY, but ICT3 is currently silent anyway) Same development tool (8bitworkshop.com) Same freaking year! And yet ICT3 is so much better. Why? Because of ICT1 and ICT2 2600. 

 

Anyway, I hope that It's Conner Time! As a series fills that "Mascot platformer on 7800" game. I know it's far from perfect (and before you complain about the non-existant physics, yes, ICT3 will have momentum like ICT1. I don't think I'm going to implement horiz momentum though as that's what killed the origonal game.) but it's my passion project.

And look at what you guys are doing! Knight guy, Lyra, Rikki & Vikki, Captain comic, and so much more! 

 

Plus, that's just the platformers. We also need to talk about all the other games!
See, the 7800 might've failed in the 80's, but in the homebrew community, the 7800 probably has the BEST games. Aside from MAYBE the NES since more people know about it and therefore it has a higher chance of high rank devs homebrewing for it. Otherwise, the 7800 is king, followed by the 2600.

 

Let's also be real here: The 7800 crushes the NES. I mean comeon, the NES could never dream of 200 sprites, 169 colors, a resolution up to 320*224, or sprites up to 512*16! (320A char mode) The NES has less than a quarter the number of colors compared to the 7800 (I mean sure, you had the rgb emphasis but that was very situational) and the 7800 has WSYNC meaning scanline-tricks are easier. And, oh that's right, it can play 2600 games. So the already massive-due-to-homebrew library just got a whole lot bigger.  The only real place where the 7800 falls short is in the sound, but then again, we can add a POKEY, already better than the NES sound alone minus the fact the NES had the DM/PCM channel (We can emulate that using the CPU though!), or a YM2151 which blows the NES out the door.

And I'm thinking of making a trick with 160B similar to 160C but using 1 palette to get 32 or 40 colors so when you use it, it A. doesn't take up all 25 colors and B. Can be used alongside "regular" 160 modes and C. Doesn't require a Display list list for each scanline.

It would work by picking 8 hues at the darkest value and 4 shades of grey (Works best on black background so you can get 5 instead) and doing the 160C trick to fake more colors.

It is very convincing though!

 

Again, these are all things the NES absolutely cannot do. And while the NES has a bigger library than the 7800 alone, the fantastic homebrew community has solved that problem. 

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

And while the NES has a bigger library than the 7800 alone, the fantastic homebrew community has solved that problem.

[DavidD]

Given that the C64 can vaguely run Super Mario Bros., I will await the release of the 7800 Super Mario Bros. 3.  I mean, if the 7800 is that much better, I assume it should be a trivial port.

 

Cough.

Edited November 26, 2022 by DavidD

[+Defender_2600]

17 hours ago, DavidD said:

I will await the release of the 7800 Super Mario Bros. 3.  I mean, if the 7800 is that much better, I assume it should be a trivial port.

 

Cough.

 

Really an old story, this time I'll stop and answer.

 

It appears that you are attributing the game's excellent and innovative gameplay to the hardware architecture of the NES. In truth, the game cannot run under NES stock, SMB3 (3 megabit cartridge) uses Nintendo's custom MMC3 for animated tiles, extra RAM, diagonal scrolling, etc. But above all, the game's total development and marketing budget was $25.8 million ($59 million adjusted for inflation) and the team consisted of more than ten people who took over two years to complete the game.

 

Now, if anyone wants to offer the same budget here, to a team with the best 7800 developers, I am sure we can overcome the NES SMB3 graphics, with its fairly basic look, with its few colors and few and little sprites, with that little palette... and then we can show, once again, the muscles of a stock 7800. With that budget we can also make the 7800 port of Zelda but, forget the NES graphics, the 7800 version would have 4bpp graphics and a SNES look . Cough.

 

 

 

 

7800 and NES are different machines, each with their own strengths, however it would be interesting to reverse the requests and finally see a port from 7800 to NES, something with lots of big colorful sprites, 4bpp graphics with 12 colors per sprites / tile, tiles with no size restrictions.... Seriously, a stock 7800 can display graphics that a NES + MMC5 can't (and you would still be stuck at 4 colors per tile anyway).

 

 

7800 4bpp graphics VS..

 

 

...VS NES graphics (NES chapter to 12:37)

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

One more example, no sort of custom MMC needed for graphics, the 7800 is truly a sprite monster...

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Defender_2600

[christo930]

16 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

the 7800 version would have 4bpp graphics and a SNES look .

 

 

Are you sure about this?  A 320x200 screen with 4bits per pixel would need 32k minimum dedicated to the background graphics alone. (320x200=64,000 pixels)/ Even 160x200=32000 is still 16k of video RAM, just for the background.  AFAIK, all of the 8 bit systems have all kinds of "rules" for color to cut down on the RAM usage. 

IIRC, the 7800 only has 4k of RAM built in.  Is there an option to put video ram in the cartridge or something?

[+Defender_2600]

41 minutes ago, christo930 said:

Are you sure about this?

 

Absolutely sure, believe me, I have some experience with 7800 graphics. What you see in my Zelda mock-up is real 7800 4bpp graphics. But still, you have already seen the 7800 version of Attack of the Petscii Robots which is made in full 160B 4bpp.

 

[Trebor]

49 minutes ago, christo930 said:

Is there an option to put video ram in the cartridge or something?

Just like its contemporaries, though hardly capitalized upon back in its heyday, the 7800 has RAM memory expansion available via cartridge.  Retail examples include Winter Games and Summer Games, both containing 16k, Impossible Mission and Jinks contain 8k.

[agradeneu]

5 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

Absolutely sure, believe me, I have some experience with 7800 graphics. What you see in my Zelda mock-up is real 7800 4bpp graphics. But still, you have already seen the 7800 version of Attack of the Petscii Robots which is made in full 160B 4bpp.

 

Sorry I dont buy your story. Until I see a running proof of concept of either SMB3 or Zelda SNES.

 

 

 

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, christo930 said:

 

 

Are you sure about this?  A 320x200 screen with 4bits per pixel would need 32k minimum dedicated to the background graphics alone. (320x200=64,000 pixels)/ Even 160x200=32000 is still 16k of video RAM, just for the background.  AFAIK, all of the 8 bit systems have all kinds of "rules" for color to cut down on the RAM usage. 

IIRC, the 7800 only has 4k of RAM built in.  Is there an option to put video ram in the cartridge or something?

Technically no. You can fake it with 320B and artifacting + Kangaroo mode and you basically can emulate CGA. But, you get 256 unique colors for each 4 + sprites (That is, if you make the background a bitmap) and you get 2 unique palettes at once. 7800 maria is VERY CAPABLE.

And even still, if you don't want to use artifacting you can flip between 2 charsets very quickly to get more color through blurring, or use 320BI to emulate 320B without the DMA costs, I can go on and on. 

 

7800 maria ABSOLUTLEY crushes the NES PPU. 

[+Pat Brady]

16 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

7800 and NES are different machines, each with their own strengths, however it would be interesting to reverse the requests and finally see a port from 7800 to NES, something with lots of big colorful sprites, 4bpp graphics with 12 colors per sprites / tile, tiles with no size restrictions.... Seriously, a stock 7800 can display graphics that a NES + MMC5 can't (and you would still be stuck at 4 colors per tile anyway).

 

 

7800 4bpp graphics VS..

 

I don't want to wade deeply into the NES-vs-7800 debate right now, but FTR 7800 Attack of the PETSCII Robots does use an on-cart mapper (and an on-cart POKEY). So if you consider SMB3 to not run on a "stock" NES then PETSCII Robots does not run on a stock 7800.

 

The 7800 version is one of the very best looking 7800 games. The NES version, in its current state, looks like a disappointment, certainly not a fair representation of that system's capabilities.

 

Your Zelda mockup looks great. Do you think there are reasons other than development budget that no 7800 game looks like that?

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

 

I don't want to wade deeply into the NES-vs-7800 debate right now, but FTR 7800 Attack of the PETSCII Robots does use an on-cart mapper (and an on-cart POKEY). So if you consider SMB3 to not run on a "stock" NES then PETSCII Robots does not run on a stock 7800.

 

The 7800 version is one of the very best looking 7800 games. The NES version, in its current state, looks like a disappointment, certainly not a fair representation of that system's capabilities.

 

Your Zelda mockup looks great. Do you think there are reasons other than development budget that no 7800 game looks like that?

Lack of available tools.

For people like me who want to develop on 7800 but have no idea how to do most things on CLI (I can do some basic stuff thanks to you guys) finding an app that has a GUI and can convert directly to 7800 bitmap data is hard. The only tool I have which can do this is the 7800 character/sprite editor by @GORF but it only supports 160A.

 

 

Edit: The only reason I develop on 7800 at all is because A. I have one and B. It's fun and C. 8bitworkshop IDE [atari7800]

Edited November 27, 2022 by Ecernosoft

[agradeneu]

3 minutes ago, Pat Brady said:

 

 

 

Your Zelda mockup looks great. Do you think there are reasons other than development budget that no 7800 game looks like that?

Because a mock up is not a game, it is not even a tech demo with 0 gameplay logic.

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Because a mock up is not a game, it is not even a tech demo with 0 gameplay logic.

Stop killing the fun mode!!! We are trying to come up with THEORIES here!!!  

[+Pat Brady]

13 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

Absolutely sure, believe me, I have some experience with 7800 graphics. What you see in my Zelda mock-up is real 7800 4bpp graphics. But still, you have already seen the 7800 version of Attack of the Petscii Robots which is made in full 160B 4bpp.

 

 

How many pixels wide and tall is that mockup?

 

7 minutes ago, Trebor said:

Just like its contemporaries, though hardly capitalized upon back in its heyday, the 7800 has RAM memory expansion available via cartridge.  Retail examples include Winter Games and Summer Games, both containing 16k, Impossible Mission and Jinks contain 8k.

 

More to the point, the 7800 does not require a full-screen bitmap (neither does the NES).

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

 

How many pixels wide and tall is that mockup?

 

 

More to the point, the 7800 does not require a full-screen bitmap (neither does the NES).

That's also true. (Sorry for overposting by the way! It's just that I want to reply to your ideas)

Remember that the 7800 has fat pixels in 160 mode so if you are using an editor that has square pixels then remember that it will look fat on the real deal.

[Ecernosoft]

20 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

Really an old story, this time I'll stop and answer.

 

It appears that you are attributing the game's excellent and innovative gameplay to the hardware architecture of the NES. In truth, the game cannot run under NES stock, SMB3 (3 megabit cartridge) uses Nintendo's custom MMC3 for animated tiles, extra RAM, diagonal scrolling, etc. But above all, the game's total development and marketing budget was $25.8 million ($59 million adjusted for inflation) and the team consisted of more than ten people who took over two years to complete the game.

 

Now, if anyone wants to offer the same budget here, to a team with the best 7800 developers, I am sure we can overcome the NES SMB3 graphics, with its fairly basic look, with its few colors and few and little sprites, with that little palette... and then we can show, once again, the muscles of a stock 7800. With that budget we can also make the 7800 port of Zelda but, forget the NES graphics, the 7800 version would have 4bpp graphics and a SNES look . Cough.

 

 

 

 

7800 and NES are different machines, each with their own strengths, however it would be interesting to reverse the requests and finally see a port from 7800 to NES, something with lots of big colorful sprites, 4bpp graphics with 12 colors per sprites / tile, tiles with no size restrictions.... Seriously, a stock 7800 can display graphics that a NES + MMC5 can't (and you would still be stuck at 4 colors per tile anyway).

 

 

7800 4bpp graphics VS..

 

 

...VS NES graphics (NES chapter to 12:37)

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

One more example, no sort of custom MMC needed for graphics, the 7800 is truly a sprite monster...

 

 

PERFECT EXAMPLE!!!! Take that NES, and heck, even SMS!

Edit: Is there a place I can get that final demo? because if I can, I'll be playing that for hours on my 7800.  

Edited November 27, 2022 by Ecernosoft

[agradeneu]

8 minutes ago, Ecernosoft said:

Stop killing the fun mode!!! We are trying to come up with THEORIES here!!!  

In theory, I could fly to the moon and back.

[agradeneu]

10 minutes ago, Pat Brady said:

 

 

 

 

More to the point, the 7800 does not require a full-screen bitmap (neither does the NES).

It would require tiles, and quite an impressive  number of them.

 

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

In theory, I could fly to the moon and back.

haha. 😃 

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

It would require tiles, and quite an impressive  number of them.

 

And that's why we have CHARBASE, and bankswitching!

Or, just use extra RAM in the cart. 

 

Then again, you can just use Bankset. That technically isn't a mapper. Just a bigger rom chip and some special wiring.

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, Ecernosoft said:

And that's why we have CHARBASE, and bankswitching!

Or, just use extra RAM in the cart. 

 

Then again, you can just use Bankset. That technically isn't a mapper. Just a bigger rom chip and some special wiring.

Just do it!

 

Iam really curious how the sprite per scanline limit will play out and scrolling huge tilemaps, hehe. 

 

BTW I know a game which really is pushing the 7800 and at NES level of quality

Edited November 27, 2022 by agradeneu

[+Defender_2600]

"And yet it moves"

 

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Just do it!

Ok!!!!!~!!~

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

"And yet it moves"

 

Well.... ICT moves!!!!  

[agradeneu]

35 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

Absolutely sure, believe me, I have some experience with 7800 graphics. What you see in my Zelda mock-up is real 7800 4bpp graphics. But still, you have already seen the 7800 version of Attack of the Petscii Robots which is made in full 160B 4bpp.

 

But that "scrolling" would ruin any SMB or Zelda clone to an unplayable mess.