5200 Activision, do you consider the ports lazy?

[Cobra Kai]

I'm not on the side of the argument that Activision spent virtually no effort in bringing their popular 2600 games to the 800/5200. It seems to be a popular opinion though, that Activision games on the 5200 are basically the same as the 2600, with very minor graphical upgrades. 

 

Do you think that is a legitimate complaint, or are the expectations too high? If the gameplay was altered, because of major changes, wouldn't that have simply opened the door to attacking the games in a different way? Didn't Activision kind of do exactly what would be expected, as graphically improved games that didn't alter the gameplay one bit? 

[+jeremiahjt]

I would say the port of Pitfall II: Lost Caverns almost makes up for every other uninspired port. Pitfall II: Lost Caverns on the 5200 is an amazing game and one of my favorite games of all time.

 

That being said, the port of Pitfall! is extremely disappointing. I can beat Pitfall! on the 2600 with a score of over 113,000. I cannot even reach the patch score of 20,000 for Pitfall! on the 5200 because of the broken controls.

 

I have Kaboom!, Space Shuttle, MegaMania, and River Raid on both, but none of those games are favorites on either system, so I do not know how the games compare.

 

I have Keystone Kapers for both and I actually like that one on both, but both games seem really similar. Honestly I have never played them back to back to compare them.

[ledzep]

1 hour ago, Cobra Kai said:

I'm not on the side of the argument that Activision spent virtually no effort in bringing their popular 2600 games to the 800/5200. It seems to be a popular opinion though, that Activision games on the 5200 are basically the same as the 2600, with very minor graphical upgrades. 

 

Do you think that is a legitimate complaint, or are the expectations too high? If the gameplay was altered, because of major changes, wouldn't that have simply opened the door to attacking the games in a different way? Didn't Activision kind of do exactly what would be expected, as graphically improved games that didn't alter the gameplay one bit? 

 

Ya, I consider them lazy but I can't figure out how they were supposed to do it any differently.  I mean, the Atari arcade ports were primitive on the 2600 though they played well enough (Asteroids, Space Invaders, Defender, etc.) and the 5200 versions looked fantastic and played a bit better (more accurate).  But Activision games weren't originally arcade games (yes?) so there's no way to compare the 2600 versions to the real games and then be happy when the 5200 versions came out and fixed the play issues.  There's no "Well, the 2600 version is missing the 3rd level and it doesn't have the mystery ship that attacks randomly, so the 5200 version put those back in making the game more complete." differences in Activision games, far as I can tell.

 

That being said, since the 2600 versions weren't based off of any real arcade standard preceding them, nobody would be able to complain that Activision added extra levels or enemies or obstacles or whatever that "shouldn't" be there.  I would have liked "The Dreadnaught Factor" to have more/bigger ships to attack, maybe add enemy fighters, or "Kaboom" to have new scenarios (bombs bouncing down a hillside making them less predictable, bouncing down scaffolding or something, bursting into little cluster bombs that spray all over the place, something!).  They could be extra/alternate levels or settings so that the original, classic game could be played without the additions.

[juansolo]

The 8-Bit/5200 versions of Pitfall II, Beamrider and River Raid are all the best versions of those games IMO.

[SoundGammon]

Well, they did give us a few games not on the 2600.

 

Zone Ranger, The Dreadnaught Factor & Zenji.

 

 

 

 

[zzip]

They weren't consistent when doing ports.  If you look at all the platforms (not just 5200).  Sometimes they'd produce nearly identical ports to the 2600,  sometimes they'd slightly improve the graphics.   Sometimes they'd make bigger changes.

[ave1]

5200 HERO has one additional aspect of control that exceeds what was done on all other consoles and computers.  The 5200 Activision programmer took advantage of the analog joystick for hovering, in that you can press the stick all the way up to rise, or halfway up to hover, or let it recenter to drop.  I really like HERO best on the 5200 because of this control feature (yes, even better than the Atari 8 bit computer version).

 

Also- River Raid has nuanced analog control for the speed of the plane which no other version offers.

Edited May 2, 2022 by ave1

[+Ryan Witmer]

I have heard a few times, although I have nothing to actually back this up, that Activision's policy at the time was to make games generally the same across platforms in some weird attempt to not slight owners of "lesser" systems.  Because of this, the 2600 was obviously the lowest common denominator so their ports to the 5200 and Intellivision typically resembled the 2600 games.  I never saw much of their other ports aside from the Apple II version of Pitfall II which also looked pretty much the same as the 2600 game.

 

You'll notice that their non-2600 games on the 5200, like Dreadnaught Factor, seem substantially more advanced than their other games since there was no 2600 "base-game" to anchor them to.  I also think 2600 Beamrider was released after the other versions, so it also wouldn't have been impacted.

[+Cafeman]

14 hours ago, ledzep said:

Ya, I consider them lazy but I can't figure out how they were supposed to do it any differently.

I never considered them lazy, instead I appreciated the many details added, with the exception of Pitfall 5200 which sucks. But I agree that how would they have done it differently.  The games were great on 2600 already, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it, Just add better graphics and sound where possible.  

 

Kaboom 5200  had the music notes added, and the control is surprisingly good with CX52. 

River Raid 5200  is fantastic! Tanks, extra riverbed layer, usable analog control, numbered bridges and level select.

Megamania had beautiful graphics for the enemies and audio tweaks.  

Pitfall 2 5200, not my favorite game, but it has the entire 2nd world added to it. 

HERO 5200  has better graphics but you need a perfectly functioning CX52 or some stages are unbeatable. 

[TeddyBear89]

2 hours ago, ave1 said:

5200 HERO has one additional aspect of control that exceeds what was done on all other consoles and computers.  The 5200 Activision programmer took advantage of the analog joystick for hovering, in that you can press the stick all the way up to rise, or halfway up to hover, or let it recenter to drop.  I really like HERO best on the 5200 because of this control feature (yes, even better than the Atari 8 bit computer version).

 

Also- River Raid has nuanced analog control for the speed of the plane which no other version offers.

Without ever trying it myself (and probably never will either) I cannot think of a game less suited for the 5200 controllers than H.E.R.O.  Ignorance is bliss - I'll just have to take your word on this.

 

And not to cause trouble but Intellivision's River Raid, Dreadnaught Factor and Beamrider > the Atari 5200's ports of the same.

 

 

[glurk]

Well, now you also have Barnstorming, Frostbite, Fishing Derby, Freeway, Starmaster, and Tennis to um, complain about?  But you'll have to blame me for those direct 2600 ports, not Activision...

[ledzep]

15 hours ago, Cafeman said:

I never considered them lazy, instead I appreciated the many details added, with the exception of Pitfall 5200 which sucks. But I agree that how would they have done it differently.  The games were great on 2600 already, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it, Just add better graphics and sound where possible.  

 

Kaboom 5200  had the music notes added, and the control is surprisingly good with CX52. 

River Raid 5200  is fantastic! Tanks, extra riverbed layer, usable analog control, numbered bridges and level select.

Megamania had beautiful graphics for the enemies and audio tweaks.  

Pitfall 2 5200, not my favorite game, but it has the entire 2nd world added to it. 

HERO 5200  has better graphics but you need a perfectly functioning CX52 or some stages are unbeatable. 

 

I wouldn't try playing Kaboom 5200 without my modded paddle controllers.  Down that path lies madness.

 

I agree, then, that some of these ports are not lazy.  I don't have the 2600 versions of any of the Activision games and barely remember playing them at a friend's house as a kid.  Adapting the analog joystick is exactly the kind of thing I would hope programmers would take advantage of.  The graphics being better, sure, but I would also hope for new/more levels.  I do appreciate the addition of tanks and levels in River Raid but, again, don't have the 2600 version to compare to.

 

Not all games can be Star Raiders but I wish Activision had tried to use the keyboard controls more (5200-specific games, not 2600 ports).  I think it's really cool that the Intellidiscs homebrew game (AtariAge Store) actually comes with overlays that help play the game (not just number of players or level selection).  I'm surprised there aren't more games that exploit that.  An adventure game or military strategy game, something that would need access to many options during gameplay.  I wonder if any of those old SSI military games would benefit from that sort of thing (Imperium Galactum?).  Could that APX game Eastern Front 1941 be adapted, I wonder?  I never had that one for my Atari 800, I would think the control pad would really help there, too.

[BIGHMW]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:44 PM, glurk said:

Well, now you also have Barnstorming, Frostbite, Fishing Derby, Freeway, Starmaster, and Tennis to um, complain about?  But you'll have to blame me for those direct 2600 ports, not Activision...

I myself have no complaints or quirks about them, I thought you did a rather fine job on them, hey, don't kid yourself, we Big Sexy owners are thankful for your work just like we are to guys like Paul Lay @playsoft, Steven Tucker @classics , @Ryan Witmer, and @Wrathchild for their tremendous contributions to our beloved SuperSystem!!!

[Keatah]

Minor graphical changes and upgrades are great when porting to a more capable system. Additional levels above and beyond the original 1st release are great, should the memory of the portee's system support it.

 

Gameplay & mechanics changes are not ok. For so many reasons which I will happily leave ya'll to discuss.

[MrMaddog]

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

Minor graphical changes and upgrades are great when porting to a more capable system. Additional levels above and beyond the original 1st release are great, should the memory of the portee's system support it.

 

Gameplay & mechanics changes are not ok. For so many reasons which I will happily leave ya'll to discuss.

 

Sounds more like modern day remasters, which is how I see 5200/8-bit ports of 2600 games.

 

Anyway, what I've posted in this other thread also applies here IMHO...

 

 

[Keatah]

4 hours ago, MrMaddog said:

Sounds more like modern day remasters, which is how I see 5200/8-bit ports of 2600 games.

I can't call those modern day remasters at all. To me, modern day remasters are those shit-assed pixel art abominations with overflashy booming graphics. I don't think I ever liked one of those overblown productions.

 

These modern-day ports are just that, ports.. Albeit somewhat out of time, decades overdue. But very nice to see if you jam one system but not the other. Interesting to see how one system handles another's special effects and tricks. Emulation makes them less impactful however, because you can segue from system to system instantly - so it's easy to just play the original-run non-ported version.

[ave1]

On 5/2/2022 at 2:09 PM, TeddyBear89 said:

Without ever trying it myself (and probably never will either) I cannot think of a game less suited for the 5200 controllers than H.E.R.O.  Ignorance is bliss - I'll just have to take your word on this.

 

And not to cause trouble but Intellivision's River Raid, Dreadnaught Factor and Beamrider > the Atari 5200's ports of the same.

 

 

I disagree.  I've played Intellivision Dreadnaught with that disk controller... I'd pick a joystick any day over that.

 

[Machine]

On 5/2/2022 at 9:37 AM, ave1 said:

5200 HERO has one additional aspect of control that exceeds what was done on all other consoles and computers.  The 5200 Activision programmer took advantage of the analog joystick for hovering, in that you can press the stick all the way up to rise, or halfway up to hover, or let it recenter to drop.  I really like HERO best on the 5200 because of this control feature (yes, even better than the Atari 8 bit computer version).

 

Did you earn the 5200 HERO patch??

[ave1]

10 hours ago, Machine said:

 

Did you earn the 5200 HERO patch??

Nice patch I unfortunately didn't have too many Activision games back in the early 80's when I played my 2600... maybe Enduro and Keystone Kapers, but I wasn't good enough to get the patches.

[phuzaxeman]

On 5/2/2022 at 1:09 PM, TeddyBear89 said:

Without ever trying it myself (and probably never will either) I cannot think of a game less suited for the 5200 controllers than H.E.R.O.  Ignorance is bliss - I'll just have to take your word on this.

 

And not to cause trouble but Intellivision's River Raid, Dreadnaught Factor and Beamrider > the Atari 5200's ports of the same.

 

 

I have had both Intellivision and 5200 for over 35+ years.

 

River Raid on the 5200 has details like propellers on helicopters spinning, dual rivers splitting apart, better sound effects, analog controls, more realistic mountains, and the ability to have the aircraft move forward on the screen.  It's just overall better. 

 

Dreadnaught Factor on the 5200 has more details on the ship.  For example, the 5200 version you can see the flames coming out of the thrusters.  5200 version also has better sound effects and much smoother scaling.  Sound effects are also better on the 5200.  I like the angle of the 5200 how you approach the ship from front to end from a birds eye view than the side view of Intellivision. 

 

Beamrider is a toss up.  Graphically they are so close.  It's which controls and sounds you prefer.

 

 

[Lynxpro]

I think the quality of their cartridge PCBs is the most disappointing. Even worse than the Actiplaque.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Lynxpro

[pumaconcolor]

According to interview snippets I've seen around the web, the higher-ups at Activision wanted the games to be the same across platforms, but the some of the developers tried to sneak in extras.