MrBeefy Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 4 hours ago, Wayler said: Are you saying that Tommy's hundreds and thousands and millions of music albums is not other stuff??? I am shocked, shocked to the core! Bleeps and bloops is why you can trust he can make hardware. It's all about trust and value... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, roots.genoa said: I guess it depends on your definition of "need". 🙂 Since I've backed the Vega+, I'm gonna explain yet again why it was very different. 1) The Vega+ was the follow-up to the Vega, which was also funded with Indiegogo but shipped. And the "team" behind it had made other stuff before, so they had experience in that regard contrary to Intellivision Entertainment; initially there was no f'n reason not to trust them. 2) During the campaign, we learned that the main engineers left the company. We obviously didn't know it at the time, but they went on to make the C64 Mini (actually the break-up could have been caused by them negotiating for the C64 without telling the rest of the company). So basically we had a few days left of the campaign to "decide" if the remaining team would be able to produce the Vega+ anyway, and we didn't know at the time the engineers left with a lot of stuff (especially the Spectrum emulator). 3) Contrary to Intellivision Entertainment once again, the remaining team showed a TON of prototypes (there are pictures literally full of them). We didn't necessarily see them functioning, but they at least built them. Also they didn't need games, so it was a lot less alarming than the Amico situation. Sure they didn't communicate a lot, but in my experience, it's often the case with Kickstarter, no matter how it ends up. For anyone interested, it is likely easier to read the blog vs trying to understand the story via the video linked above. Source - ZX Vega+ News In addition the story becomes more interesting when you realize the "Paul Andrews, Darren Melbourne, and Chris Smith" mentioned in the blog and the video are Retro Games Ltd. now and responsible for numerous successful projects since. "TheA500" was the latest. Darren is also co-founder of Antstream and highly skilled in licensing. Antstream, btw, was announced as new partner of Amiga Corp. along with Evercade at the Amiga 37 computer show a few weeks ago. It's obvious who the good guys were in the Vega+ drama, given the proof of success achieved by the above. #6 Edited October 31, 2022 by number6 Corrected to current company name RGL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digdugnate Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 13 hours ago, mr_me said: I don't disagree. I've been talking about engineering changes due to component supply for a long time, that's if they ever get to manufacturing. Any specific component you think is end of life? The company has already talked about an example of a component that's gone end of life that they had to deal with. But yet numerous other upstart companies are releasing consoles during and after the pandemic, and new ones still being announced. This console was supposed to be in production/manufacturing 2 1/2 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) Their business model doesn't work shipping a few thousand consoles. They need to be able to scale up manufacturing and they haven't had the financing to do it. Edited October 31, 2022 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 1 hour ago, digdugnate said: Hopefully those tacos aren't leftovers from some other system! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razzie.P Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 3 hours ago, mr_me said: Their business model doesn't work shipping a few thousand consoles. They need to be able to scale up manufacturing and they haven't had the financing to do it. It's not exactly working out for them shipping 0 units either, far as I can tell. 3 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPilz Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 6 hours ago, mr_me said: My comment was not a blanket statement for everything they said. We were talking about a specific video. Yes, and you stated: "A lot has changed since that comment about a video [March 2022]. The company has been gutted for example. This is a product that has yet to be released. Product features are still subject to change. They should be very careful what they share." But John made that comment about the video not just in March 2022 but also in October 2022. As far as I know every point you made about the company in March is still applicable now, except product features should not be subject to change since they are now on round three of extensive user testing of what has been described as the final package. Just not following why this video is such a complicated aspect to film when the RFID and entire purchase system has been operational for more than a year and Intellivision did show off their UI back in December 2021 including simulated purchasing. I don't believe your justification that "they should be very careful what they share" holds water here. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPilz Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, mr_me said: They need to be able to scale up manufacturing and they haven't had the financing to do it. What about their $1,350,000 financing put toward Ark Electronics in Sept. 2020 for manufacturing (press release)? Didn't they have the financing back then? What about their $150,000,000 manufacturing line of credit? Has the "smoke & mirrors" comment by Tommy below not aged gracefully? Tommy: Just wondering if anyone out there thinks we didn't show the machine working over a year ago when we took our first 100,000 purchase orders without breaking a sweat. Wondering if people out there think we were able to secure a $150 MILLION manufacturing line of credit with smoke & mirrors. Please. To those folks, spare us the drama and stupidity at this point. E3 - June, 2019 was to SHOW buyers the system behind closed doors for the first time. We knocked it out of the park and achieved every goal we set out to. We've hired at least 30+ new people since then. Funny that people would think we're going backwards over a year a half. Edited October 31, 2022 by MattPilz 3 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roots.genoa Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 7 hours ago, number6 said: It's obvious who the good guys were in the Vega+ drama, given the proof of success achieved by the above. Yeah, except your "good guys" left without warning backers. 😒 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, MattPilz said: Yes, and you stated: "A lot has changed since that comment about a video [March 2022]. The company has been gutted for example. This is a product that has yet to be released. Product features are still subject to change. They should be very careful what they share." But John made that comment about the video not just in March 2022 but also in October 2022. As far as I know every point you made about the company in March is still applicable now, except product features should not be subject to change since they are now on round three of extensive user testing of what has been described as the final package. Just not following why this video is such a complicated aspect to film when the RFID and entire purchase system has been operational for more than a year and Intellivision did show off their UI back in December 2021 including simulated purchasing. I don't believe your justification that "they should be very careful what they share" holds water here. It's not justification, they can share a new video if they want, the company just has to be careful they don't show anything they don't want shown. They've shared too much under the previous CEO. You'd have to ask them for an explanation about this video, but they've dismantled the company because there's no money. Is John still on payroll, or is he contracted as needed? They would hope and expect the field market testing will be favourable. But in the event it's not they can still make decisions on changes. I previously mentioned holding a title that was expected to release because they didn't get the expected feedback. In the case of a company prepared to go to mass production, they could put that on hold based on field market testing feedback. That's what it's for. 1 hour ago, MattPilz said: What about their $1,350,000 financing put toward Ark Electronics in Sept. 2020 for manufacturing (press release)? Didn't they have the financing back then? What about their $150,000,000 manufacturing line of credit? They may have had the financing secured back then but they don't now, according to the risk disclosure shared earlier this year. There is $1.35M in cash/components tied up in a dispute with their contract manufacturer. But they would need a lot more than that to manufacture the numbers to address retailers, assuming they still have purchase orders. 2 hours ago, Razzie.P said: It's not exactly working out for them shipping 0 units either, far as I can tell. Apparently their plan was to manufacture the first batch in north america at high cost. This was before they dismantled the company, so things have changed. Edited October 31, 2022 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 4 hours ago, MattPilz said: Yes, and you stated: "A lot has changed since that comment about a video [March 2022]. The company has been gutted for example. This is a product that has yet to be released. Product features are still subject to change. They should be very careful what they share." But John made that comment about the video not just in March 2022 but also in October 2022. As far as I know every point you made about the company in March is still applicable now, except product features should not be subject to change since they are now on round three of extensive user testing of what has been described as the final package. Just not following why this video is such a complicated aspect to film when the RFID and entire purchase system has been operational for more than a year and Intellivision did show off their UI back in December 2021 including simulated purchasing. I don't believe your justification that "they should be very careful what they share" holds water here. They also had a bunch of Deep Dive videos that never materialized after they were caught red handed pants down stealing other people's work. The only reason for them to not share at this point is you will find similar blunders and they do not want you or the sheep to know how they have nothing to show 2 hours ago, MattPilz said: What about their $1,350,000 financing put toward Ark Electronics in Sept. 2020 for manufacturing (press release)? Didn't they have the financing back then? What about their $150,000,000 manufacturing line of credit? Has the "smoke & mirrors" comment by Tommy below not aged gracefully? Tommy: Just wondering if anyone out there thinks we didn't show the machine working over a year ago when we took our first 100,000 purchase orders without breaking a sweat. Wondering if people out there think we were able to secure a $150 MILLION manufacturing line of credit with smoke & mirrors. Please. To those folks, spare us the drama and stupidity at this point. E3 - June, 2019 was to SHOW buyers the system behind closed doors for the first time. We knocked it out of the park and achieved every goal we set out to. We've hired at least 30+ new people since then. Funny that people would think we're going backwards over a year a half. All bragging. They had shit for purchase orders. That's why they lost money to Ark. They couldn't meet the amount needed and were told to kick rocks. It is easy to lie to sheep who will swallow any turd you throw at them. However not as easy to do when you need to show you have purchase orders. Or worse yet, think that the deal is the same for su. 10,000 units. 1 hour ago, mr_me said: Apparently their plan was to manufacture the first batch in north america at high cost. This was before they dismantled the company, so things have changed. This is an asinine comment. Their plan was to go with Ark manufacturing. Because they had shit for preorders they couldn't and have floundered since. It's all about meeting milestones and Intellivision couldn't do that. Same reason why they 100% passed up in February 2020 to have a place not only source parts but manufacture them too. The only thing apparent is that you have selective memory. Intellivision: Pissing away millions with nothing to show! 600 years experience in shitting the bed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) I'm talking about after their contract with Ark went south. Their CFO, in an interview, in summer 2021, described how they shifted from manufacturing at large scale, to starting with a small batch locally and then ramping up production in Asia. Again, that's not my comment, that's what they said. You can think it's a good or bad idea but that has nothing to do with me. Edit: Don't know what the details of the contract dispute with Ark were but we do know they weren't ready to go to manufacturing in early 2020. According to their engineers, they didn't get into a lab until late 2020 and then had to make changes based on lab results. It wasn't until summer 2021 that they got positive lab results. Don't know what happened with Ark other than they have a dispute and had to find an alternative. If others know the details that's great. Edited November 1, 2022 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famicommander Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, mr_me said: I'm talking about after their contract with Ark went south. Their CFO, in an interview, in summer 2021, described how they shifted from manufacturing at large scale, to starting with a small batch locally and then ramping up production in Asia. Again, that's not my comment, that's what they said. You can think it's a good or bad idea but that has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with you, because you consistently take their statements at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt. The rest of us realize that: 1. Most of the things they've said were outright lies and 2. The things that weren't outright lies were them being ridiculously, stupidly optimistic because they had no idea what they were doing. Not willful deception, but extreme incompetence. Stop assuming anything they say is true. If they're not lying directly, which is rare, there's a better than average possibility they simply have no idea what the hell they're talking about. 4 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 1 hour ago, famicommander said: It has everything to do with you, because you consistently take their statements at face value and give them the benefit of the doubt. The rest of us realize that: 1. Most of the things they've said were outright lies and 2. The things that weren't outright lies were them being ridiculously, stupidly optimistic because they had no idea what they were doing. Not willful deception, but extreme incompetence. Stop assuming anything they say is true. If they're not lying directly, which is rare, there's a better than average possibility they simply have no idea what the hell they're talking about. It'd be a shame if the accelerometer they had in their controller was EOL.... https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/stmicroelectronics/LSM6DS3USTR/6229963?s=N4IgTCBcDaICwE4DsBaAjANgWgDOlAcgCIgC6AvkA 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_B Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 4 hours ago, roots.genoa said: Yeah, except your "good guys" left without warning backers. 😒 I think you're a little off with the timeline as the Vega+ campaign finished on March 27, 2016 and they didn't resign until April 8. They also had reasons for not going public as they still had shares in the company and were hoping to negotiate an exit where they got paid for that and the work they'd already done, including the prototypes and firmware. Once it was clear that that wasn't going to happen they let us know, but it took a while. It was still open for orders after that, but you'd be looking at a comparatively small number placed during the period where the information would have made a difference. The bulk of the 3358 were already locked in as per Indiegogo's terms and, quite frankly, it's IGG that I'm most disappointed in. They could and should have frozen the money until the dispute had been worked out, and refunded us all when it became clear that it wouldn't be. However, they just handed it over to one side with no questions asked and still let the campaign run even when there was an ongoing lawsuit! So, anyway, the guys now at RGL are not perfect and they made mistakes. They do have a fairly decent track record when it comes to announcing games consoles and shipping them though, and I think that was the main point being made. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) 44 minutes ago, MrBeefy said: It'd be a shame if the accelerometer they had in their controller was EOL.... Already said that engineering changes at manufacturing is something they'd have to deal with, as any manufacturer would, as they already have. The cost of engineering changes is not insignificant but it's a fraction of total manufacturing cost. None of it matters if they don't have financing. Do you have their bill of materials, what date is on it? Edited November 1, 2022 by mr_me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rayik Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) 45 minutes ago, mr_me said: Already said that engineering changes at manufacturing is something they'd have to deal with, as any manufacturer would, as they already have. The cost of engineering changes is not insignificant but it's a fraction of total manufacturing cost. None of it matters if they don't have financing. Do you have their bill of materials, what date is on it? You are just making up all kinds of assumptions from whatever quote you cite. No wonder it’s not being taken seriously. Edited November 1, 2022 by rayik 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cebus Capucinis Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 Technically, since it's all quoting.... ....it has.... Already Been Discussed™️ 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 Mr. Misinformation 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roots.genoa Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 3 hours ago, Cebus Capucinis said: Technically, since it's all quoting.... ....it has.... Already Been Discussed™️ Exact! Let's move on to FCC certifications, then. 🙂 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 7 hours ago, mr_me said: Already said that engineering changes at manufacturing is something they'd have to deal with, as any manufacturer would, as they already have. The cost of engineering changes is not insignificant but it's a fraction of total manufacturing cost. None of it matters if they don't have financing. Do you have their bill of materials, what date is on it? Don't stress out. The most important part of the gaming experience IS still available. I give you LEDs!!!!! https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/adafruit-industries-llc/1655/5154679?s=N4IgTCBcDaIIwFYwA4C0c4AYAsqByAIiALoC%2BQA At the low low price of $4.50 each. Woot woot! Launch pad here we come! 1 hour ago, roots.genoa said: Exact! Let's move on to FCC certifications, then. 🙂 It has already been discussed how the latest news from an employee was they didn't pass. Come on Roots keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevtris Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 30 minutes ago, MrBeefy said: Don't stress out. The most important part of the gaming experience IS still available. I give you LEDs!!!!! https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/adafruit-industries-llc/1655/5154679?s=N4IgTCBcDaIIwFYwA4C0c4AYAsqByAIiALoC%2BQA At the low low price of $4.50 each. Woot woot! Launch pad here we come! It has already been discussed how the latest news from an employee was they didn't pass. Come on Roots keep up. Hey, they only have 41 of those babies on the main amico unit, and 12 in each controller. No big deal. 65 of those $4.50 LEDs, that's $292.50 in LEDs at those prices. Realistically, you can probably get them for 25 cents each, which is still $16.25 in LEDs. That's obnoxious. They should've just driven standard RGB LEDs themselves instead of using those high-falootin' ones that cost a lot more. But what do I know, I don't have 600 years of vidya game 'gineerin' experience. Why oh why did no one tell tommy that 65 freaking LEDs was way too many, and that 2-3 on the main system and some clever light pipes would've worked just as well? No one on the team had any DFM (design for manufacturing) experience what so ever. This is clearly evident looking at their build videos and the sheer amount of PCBs and parts in these things. Ark probably game them some clues, but they aren't going to sit there and redesign their product for them to make it easier/cheaper to manufacture. There's four PCBs and a ton of ribbon cables and things hooking it all together in the case unit, which is obnoxious. They could've gotten away with two PCBs easy, and some light pipes. Ditching or changing the charging setup would've let them get it down to 1, like having the controllers nest farther down on the connector end so that the contacts could be on the main board. During production, you have to think about how long it takes to put everything in there, and even if you can speed it up by a few seconds, it adds up over a run of thousands of units. Reducing the part count and assembly points is how you do that. 2 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBeefy Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 21 minutes ago, kevtris said: Hey, they only have 41 of those babies on the main amico unit, and 12 in each controller. No big deal. 65 of those $4.50 LEDs, that's $292.50 in LEDs at those prices. Realistically, you can probably get them for 25 cents each, which is still $16.25 in LEDs. That's obnoxious. They should've just driven standard RGB LEDs themselves instead of using those high-falootin' ones that cost a lot more. But what do I know, I don't have 600 years of vidya game 'gineerin' experience. Why oh why did no one tell tommy that 65 freaking LEDs was way too many, and that 2-3 on the main system and some clever light pipes would've worked just as well? No one on the team had any DFM (design for manufacturing) experience what so ever. This is clearly evident looking at their build videos and the sheer amount of PCBs and parts in these things. Ark probably game them some clues, but they aren't going to sit there and redesign their product for them to make it easier/cheaper to manufacture. There's four PCBs and a ton of ribbon cables and things hooking it all together in the case unit, which is obnoxious. They could've gotten away with two PCBs easy, and some light pipes. Ditching or changing the charging setup would've let them get it down to 1, like having the controllers nest farther down on the connector end so that the contacts could be on the main board. During production, you have to think about how long it takes to put everything in there, and even if you can speed it up by a few seconds, it adds up over a run of thousands of units. Reducing the part count and assembly points is how you do that. Concerts dictate there should be than many lights on a console. When the games you have are so boring people need something else to pay attention to! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atarifan88 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 22 hours ago, MrBeefy said: Bleeps and bloops is why you can trust he can make hardware. It's all about trust and value... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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