Will the 2600 still be collected in 20 years?

[Keatah]

16 minutes ago, polyex said:

For most people, the time they have been using Mame and other forms of emulation is now longer than the original real hardware existed before emulation.

This is holding true even in old/extreme cases. I visited my first arcade sometime in 1975-1976 and got a VCS on zero-day. And an Apple II shortly thereafter. Other micros would follow in time. All the while I was an avid arcade goer especially in the early 80's. And stopped going around 1995-1996. Point is that's about a 21 year span of time covering when gaming hardware was in its prime, in stores, in arcades.. And in great working condition.

 

I got into the emulation scene as soon as it popped up, sometime in 1993-1995. And 2023 is nearly upon us. I'm full-tilt into it. And that's about 30 years time. So everything makes sense. Yes.

 

Through emulation the original first b/w Atari & Kee games play just like they did back in the day.

[Keatah]

Over the past 5 years (give or take a few) I've noticed that more and more people are straying away from collections. Particularly mega-collections. And in the process they're downsizing/rightsizing. They're not getting out of the hobby. Absolutely not. But. Rather. They're shifting more toward experiencing and playing the games. Focusing efforts on making everything workable and personally meaningful. More focus. More practicality. Less hardcore. Less tedium. Today that's easier than ever with all the various options available.

 

Not sure what this shift means for the future of collecting.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Keatah

[polyex]

This might sound odd but I have a real strange feeling of nostalgia if I see the old VHS company openings that you would see at the beginning of the tape. Thorn-EMI, Media , Vestron. 

I was watching a couple of them on youtube the other day and the feeling was really overwhelming , it was like I was back home as a kid watching a tape on the old CRT TV. I can not overstate

the feeling I had.Then I watched them again yesterday and I started to think I should stop this, the feeling of nostalgia was going to leave me and I'll replace it with  remembering watching them on youtube instead,

thus erasing my old feelings that were apparently deep inside just waiting to be triggered.

 

 

I think for some people the initial nostalgia of videogames and old computers is similar, and it wears off rapidly and they move on. Some of us it takes longer.

 

 

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-apes/202003/the-psychology-nostalgia

 

 

Edited November 24, 2022 by polyex

[Keatah]

8 hours ago, polyex said:

This might sound odd but I have a real strange feeling of nostalgia if I see the old VHS company openings that you would see at the beginning of the tape. Thorn-EMI, Media , Vestron. 

Totally get it.

 

8 hours ago, polyex said:

I can not overstate the feeling I had.Then I watched them again yesterday and I started to think I should stop this, the feeling of nostalgia was going to leave me and I'll replace it with  remembering watching them on youtube instead,

thus erasing my old feelings that were apparently deep inside just waiting to be triggered.

A valid concern for real.

 

I'm that way with Pengo, Amidar, and Galaxian. As those were the first games I played in MAME. Granted I don't believe I played Pengo and Amidar in the real arcades?? But those three games always bring me back to the mid-90's when emulators emerged.

 

I played Galaxian briefly in arcades. But MAME commands the memories. And I rather like it. The replacement vibes are better than the dreary experience from the 'cade.

 

8 hours ago, polyex said:

I think for some people the initial nostalgia of videogames and old computers is similar, and it wears off rapidly and they move on. Some of us it takes longer.

Pretty sure it comes back for another round.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Keatah

[Keir]

This is an interesting thread that has explored a lot of different ideas. One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the novelty factor.

 

When I started collecting old video games in the late 90s it was all about nostalgia. Once I had reacquired and played the games I remembered from my childhood, what kept me going was the excitement of discovering new games and systems that I didn’t know. I have had similar experiences with collecting other things such as records, old TV broadcasts, and most recently D&D books.

 

Now that I’m revisiting video game collecting I am re-experiencing that nostalgia, as well as some secondhand nostalgia (feeling nostalgic for when I started collecting in the 90s), but I don’t think it will last because I don’t have the same motivation to discover new games.

[Keatah]

12 hours ago, Keir said:

Now that I’m revisiting video game collecting I am re-experiencing that nostalgia, as well as some secondhand nostalgia (feeling nostalgic for when I started collecting in the 90s), but I don’t think it will last because I don’t have the same motivation to discover new games.

I get that. I also don't have the motivation or interest to chase after new games as much as I did, say, just 4 or 5 years ago. "Chase" and "track down" are keywords here. In a way it acts as a filter because I'm not interested in jumping through hoops to get them or even play them. See..? Though I will get interested in some very pro-level games from time to time. Think ChampGames, SpiceWare, or TJ for instance.

 

And the things I do partially-physically collect for, Apple II & PC, there's always something new being made available. Whether it be new as in written in present times or something vintage being archived for the first time, it's exciting all the way around. Hope that made some sense.

[MrTrust]

On 11/24/2022 at 6:42 AM, polyex said:

This might sound odd but I have a real strange feeling of nostalgia if I see the old VHS company openings that you would see at the beginning of the tape. Thorn-EMI, Media , Vestron.

 

I have the same experience with that, and with WPIX Channel 11 (later The WB) movie bumpers from the 80s and 90s, old PPV promo streams, many similar things.  I'm sure it has everything to do with nostalgia, but those things are also a break from the oppressive sameness of everything.  Every visual media product now starts with one of these:

 

 

Is there some central AI that auto generates these things?  It is absolutely smothering how little variation there is in any media we interact with.  Once upon a time, this was not the case.  It felt different to go to different video stores and rent different video tapes, go to different movie theaters and watch different movies, play different games on different platforms.

 

I know an Atari 2600 game as soon as I'm looking at one.  Same for Intellivision, Colecovision, C64, Apple II, NES, Master System, etc. etc.  Now, not.  Everything just comes out of the big, undifferentiated media faucet and one platform or product can just be swapped in for another without anyone noticing.

 

 

[Keatah]

5 hours ago, MrTrust said:

Is there some central AI that auto generates these things?  It is absolutely smothering how little variation there is in any media we interact with.  Once upon a time, this was not the case.  It felt different to go to different video stores and rent different video tapes, go to different movie theaters and watch different movies, play different games on different platforms.

There's some AI in the analytics that manages the business side of which that gives rise to the framework to create this stuff. Most everything just tries to follow a format that brings in the most $$$ per quarter and that's it. The tools used to make this stuff are the same. The flat metroized fonts, the same CGI tools, the same impression that something unequivocally has to look like something else. Deviation is deemed too risky. The same flattened millennial thinking cause by being too risk averse.

 

When this stuff came out in the 70's the whole artform was brand new. And anything was considered ok to try.

 

5 hours ago, MrTrust said:

I know an Atari 2600 game as soon as I'm looking at one.  Same for Intellivision, Colecovision, C64, Apple II, NES, Master System, etc. etc.  Now, not.  Everything just comes out of the big, undifferentiated media faucet and one platform or product can just be swapped in for another without anyone noticing.

Yup. I think that started happening when the variety of CPUs and GPUs crashed down into two choices. Prior to that each machine had different makes and models of those parts. Now it's all very formulaic. And to make it all worse, the instruction sets and APIs are essentially the same(between AMD and Intel). The choice of toolsets, think Unity, is stifling. QT makes every UI identical. The list rolls on..

 

The barrier to entry for programming these games is way too low. Even the non-creative types are drawn in. Back in the heyday VCS programmers had to essentially make their own "OS Kernel". Today all you need to know is Blender and how to draw a monster - be part of a billion-dollar development team that sucks everything through the corporate straw.

 

I don't like it either and it is second to DRM as a reason I don't do modern gaming. I check in from time to time but nothing changes.

[Ecernosoft]

On 10/16/2022 at 12:59 PM, HatefulGravey said:

I'm not trying to be funny, or start something negative. I'm actually wondering if collecting the older consoles will still be a thing as time passes. I'll explain my thought process some to hopefully shed some light on what I'm actually asking here. 

 

My birthday is coming up. I'm not old but I'm old enough that no one would confuse me for young (I'll be 39 this year). I have a large collection by my own standard, and no desire to get ride of it any time soon. So, getting older I have reached a point of wondering what will happen with it once I'm not longer here to take care of it and enjoy it. 

 

I have nephews and nieces that are very into video games and thanks to my involvement in their lives they have some exposure to older video games. Even so they have no interest in the older games beyond a passing curiosity. Having no kids of my own I had hoped one of them would take some interest in the older stuff and enjoy having it, even if only so as a conversation starter, when I die. 

 

Seeing no real interest in them has been a little depressing and has me wondering if anyone will be interested in stuff this old in the coming years. I don't know for sure, but I seem to be on the pretty young side of collecting VCS stuff. I know people tend to collect what they remember from their past and I have some memories of VCS age gaming because my family didn't really have the funds to upgrade to new consoles as they came out and I grew up playing my uncle's old games. So I have memories to attach the collection to. Even with my influence the children in my family are much more interested in the modern games. I don't blame them, these are the things they are growing up with. 

 

So to the other collectors in the world: do you ever wonder about these things? Do you think there will still be interest in these older games in another 20+ years at all? 

I'm no collector but I will say I'M NOT GOING TO FORGET ABOUT THE 7800. I want ICT to be a thing besides "just another game". I want it to become "popular" if possible. I plan to bring it to PC with the ICT collection, or something different, based off of:

ICT1 Scratch

ICT special Scratch

ICT1 7800

ICT1 2600

ICT2 2600

ICT3 7800

Other atari homebrew platformers (?)

and the color special along with it's other prototypes. (?)

I wanted to make one GIANT game incorperating at least SOMETHING from every ICT that has existed, like the pipes from ICT1 7800 and the exploration from ICT2 2600.

 

As long as that's successful, the 7800 and 2600 at least won't be forgotten, even if it's not collected.

 

Second of all: While it might not be what I make my mainstream games on, I'm always going to find it fun to AT LEAST do 7800 projects, and maybe some 2600 stuff too. I'm also not going to get rid of my 7800 or the TV I have, no way! or any of the games I got. I think I may have some rare ones though- ones I've never heard of like Human cannonball and some data east stuff. I even had star-raiders (But no keypad for it when I got it, so I needed to get a keypad)!

It's Conner time! Is my passion project and I want to keep pushing the limits. I mean, look at ICT1 vs ICT3 7800. It's a world of difference between the two!

 

Third of all: Even if the 2600 isn't collected, that doesn't mean we'll still be releasing games for them. And if Conner's dreamland (Oh no, i spoiled it) becomes a thing on the 7800 (That's going on the PC too) it will probably have some lock-on-feature (Though, I'd need to get in contact with @Albert first) so that MORE can be added to the game. It might not be called Conner's Dreamland but I had a mechanic where you could switch between the "Good version" and the "Bad version" and while the good version would be easier, you'd need to go to the bad version to do certain things. And if the lockon idea worked, you could plug in ICT3 to get EXTRA LEVELS!

 

That's probably not happening though. ICT3 is going to be my last mainstream Atari game before I move back to PC (For the most part)

 

Just saying. THERE IS STILL INTEREST IN THE 2600, just, not in collecting. (at least I don't think so)

[Keatah]

I'm banking on emulation's ability to transcend time while being very convenient as a method of ensuring descendants can explore the games of our time. At some point I would suspect it'll be easier to get emulators going than it would be original hardware. Assuming the hardware is available and in good condition. But I understand that PCs can and will change enough that compatibility with old emulators will be an issue. And the answer is VMs.

 

A real life example would be just picking a vintage 70's or 80's arcade cab. Arbitrarily, say, Galaxian or Zaxxon or Assault. Pretty sure I'd need to travel 50+ miles to get to an arcade that has one of those. Tack on another 50 to find the other two. Pretty sure distant relatives of the future aren't going to bother with all that. But I can see them perusing a hard drive or other storage device.

 

Hope that's logical, plausible, and makes some sort of sense.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Keatah
rant summore..!

[oky2000]

I doubt it will be anything like it is now. It's not just for the 2600 either.

 

The problem is these machines will eventually fail, just like their original owners, so there will be less to buy.

 

People born in 2002 40 years from now would not generally be interested, certainly not for the massive increase in effort it would be to actually use one.

 

 

[Keatah]

4 minutes ago, oky2000 said:

The problem is these machines will eventually fail, just like their original owners, so there will be less to buy.

Yes. Attrition by nature.

 

4 minutes ago, oky2000 said:

People born in 2002 40 years from now would not generally be interested, certainly not for the massive increase in effort it would be to actually use one.

It's exactly that! The effort required to refurb and clean and generally spiff'em'up that is detracting. Maybe not so much ability. (There's always someone willing to do it for a price.) But, instead, just the management of time and how much one cares to bestow upon a given project - that's annoying.

 

My best example is a basement full of arcade cabs. I'm not interested in adjusting and tuning 15 CRTs. Not even one time. I know in 5 years I may need to do it all over again and then maybe recap them. Deal with image sizing and burn in. Not interested in the general cleaning and dusting and attending to all the other details. It's just not exciting enough. Hollow. Shit.. last time I wanted to do that when I applied to work in the service department of large arcade. And that was in the very early 1990's IIRC.

 

Just a week or two ago I enjoyed staying home, with my nice and tidy little toolbox. Disassembled and cleaned and spiffed-up one of my old DMMs while cranking Alan Parsons' Tales Of Mystery and Imagination. Could have went to the nightclub and dropped $500. But naw.. Did enough of that years ago.

[Greg2600]

Largely I will say no.  Emulation has done in the need to collect for younger generations, they just don't have the same affinity for the physical cart.  Beyond that, Atari like Coleco or Mattel and even Sega, simply don't have the same kind of psychotic collecting niche that Nintendo systems do.  Those won't be played physically either, but the desire to collect the games particularly CIB isn't going to wane. 

[Keatah]

Emulation works splendidly, with FPGA and Everdrives as transitional stepping stones to the virtual world. Especially among the oldtimers looking to rightsize and expand their horizons to systems they may not bother with otherwise. Newcomers (learning the lay of the land) quickly discover that less is more.

 

People accept SFFPC rigs more readily than a wall of cartridges and stack of consoles and boxes of accessories. Many of them choose to collect virtually for its obvious advantages. Both young and old alike. The common quality they share is they are gamers not wanting to get bogged down with plastic and cardboard boxes. Or an endless array of slim jewel cases.

[HatefulGravey]

Emulation has been mention a bunch here and it has made me wonder about the future of emulation. Not really of the consoles we commonly emulate now, but of consoles the kids are playing now. What will Playstation 4 or 5 emulation be like? I mean, will it even be a thing? I have to say, I don't know how anyone could collect for a system that is basically an emulation box for itself as it is, and the games are so patched and re-worked by the time they are done that getting your hands on a PS5 game in any kind of physical format might not mean much in terms of usefulness. Without access to the day one patches and fixes that are needed to make the modern game work the games may be forever unplayable. This wont only apply to the PS5, it's just the example I picked.

 

I can certainly see how the future of classic gaming might be emulation only. The kids are already used to the idea of having the games in a digital only format. 

 

I started out wondering if the 2600 would be collected in the future, now I'm wondering if video games will be collected in the future at all.

Edited November 30, 2022 by HatefulGravey

[Keatah]

2 hours ago, HatefulGravey said:

I started out wondering if the 2600 would be collected in the future, now I'm wondering if video games will be collected in the future at all.

They may not be collected as much by new people as compared to the original oldsters that grew up with it. To help focus this. Maybe ask why vintage games are collected? And the answer could possibly yield information that would help determine how and for how long and by whom they may be collected. IDK..?

 

I tend to think collectors collect simply because it (the collection) looks like a library of a sort when there's a wall of carts happening. When there is a stack of systems on a wire stand happening. It could even be just the build up and accumulation of stuff over time that is appealing. The feeling of creating something and cherishing it. A mindmap of the things that recall the good times made manifest.

 

My arrangement of emulators is a sporadic 25 year on, off, and on again, activity. So it's become a pretty personal endeavor. Moving a game from this folder to that folder feels very much like sorting carts on a shelf. Sorting by label, or system, or genre. Building a favorites section and moving games in and out of it over the years. Opening a new category like ChampGames or Spiceware. Or perusing Hunter's Roms' (sorted by company) folder. That's a nice thing if in the mood to play say like all the Imagic games or 1st Activision games - much like how we did as kids. Getting in the mood for a certain style. So cool.

 

3 hours ago, HatefulGravey said:

I can certainly see how the future of classic gaming might be emulation only. The kids are already used to the idea of having the games in a digital only format.

I can tell you if I was restricted to doing just physical game carts I would have stopped playing classic games years and years ago. And I'm an oldster from the S-100 days. Channel F and 2600 were exotic and futuristic when they hit the shelves. Today I'm all digital. So it's just not the kids of today. Emulation and pack of roms on an SSD is a digital thing. But a manual digital thing.

 

I say manual because it's not as straightforward and automatic as clicking on something in a social media app and having it instantly pop up on a pocket screen. There's a little work involved. Going to Internet Archive and getting the games. Setting up an emulator. And pointing the emulator to the folder with the games. That's a pretty complex task nowadays. And a tedious one when done with touchscreen running an OS that's designed to obfuscate files and their locations. I call it manual digital, not full automatic digital. It's eminently more convenient than trolling ebay and garage sales and resale shops. That's for sure.

 

Sure there's 1-click in-browser emulators. But I find them inferior and lacking compared against something running locally and filled with adjustment options. Options to get the NTSC RF fuzzies and all that.

 

 

3 hours ago, HatefulGravey said:

What will Playstation 4 or 5 emulation be like? I mean, will it even be a thing?

I could guess that the source of PS 4/5 games would somehow be rips of a completely patched game existing on a console. Gotta come from somewhere. And then the emulator (like those KMS activators for Microsoft) would simulate the server. Game thinks it talking to a server, but it's just a loopback/redirect to the server simulator hosted on your same PC. Or within the emulator itself. Sure. But won't doubt there's a more creative solution.

 

As far as the actual physical collection, well.. I suppose a complete rip to an SD card would work, tape it into the jewel box to lend some physicality. I'm sure there's a more creative solution here too.

[zzip]

16 hours ago, HatefulGravey said:

Emulation has been mention a bunch here and it has made me wonder about the future of emulation. Not really of the consoles we commonly emulate now, but of consoles the kids are playing now. What will Playstation 4 or 5 emulation be like? I mean, will it even be a thing?

There are already PS4 emulators available, such as PCSX4

[Greg2600]

When you've grown up on cinematic worthy video game graphics, why let alone how would you even become aware of 8-bit simplicity?  How many people watch Turner Classics or similar, who didn't live through that era of film?  I watch it, because I'm a film fan, but most of the public couldn't care less.  Heck I would expect such standards as Space 2001 or even E.T. to be forgotten before long, with the utter bombardment from Marvel predominantly.  Eventually there's just less and less people to care.

[Keatah]

3 hours ago, Greg2600 said:

Heck I would expect such standards as Space 2001 or even E.T. to be forgotten before long, with the utter bombardment from Marvel predominantly.  Eventually there's just less and less people to care.

I saw a few Marvel films over the past 5 years or so. And bombardment it is. In quantity and in over-the-top effects. Just a little too much sometimes. Always room for the likes of the slower and older standards.

 

I hadn't seen Rocketship X-M when it was popular. But I watched it last year and found it to be worthwhile.

[Astro Rabby]

On 11/24/2022 at 4:37 AM, Keatah said:

This is holding true even in old/extreme cases. I visited my first arcade sometime in 1975-1976 and got a VCS on zero-day. And an Apple II shortly thereafter. Other micros would follow in time. All the while I was an avid arcade goer especially in the early 80's. And stopped going around 1995-1996. Point is that's about a 21 year span of time covering when gaming hardware was in its prime, in stores, in arcades.. And in great working condition.

 

I got into the emulation scene as soon as it popped up, sometime in 1993-1995. And 2023 is nearly upon us. I'm full-tilt into it. And that's about 30 years time. So everything makes sense. Yes.

 

Through emulation the original first b/w Atari & Kee games play just like they did back in the day.

the unfortunate part is Vector games. I was blown aback when I saw a real Asteroids cabinet when I was in Huntsville. Emulation just can't replicate that. Still better than not experiencing it at all, though.

[Would LOVE to find a black widow IRL for the same reason]

[Keatah]

22 minutes ago, Astro Rabby said:

the unfortunate part is Vector games. I was blown aback when I saw a real Asteroids cabinet when I was in Huntsville. Emulation just can't replicate that. Still better than not experiencing it at all, though.

And definitely worth trading in exchange for not having to trek 25 miles to an arcade - which may or may not have it in top working condition anyways. That's really my pain point - traveling for an hour to get to a game room. But since we have these at home it's become moot.

 

(IIRC Asteroids is the only games which really overdrives a dot to burn-in intensities.)

[jd_1138]

On 11/24/2022 at 5:37 AM, Keatah said:

This is holding true even in old/extreme cases. I visited my first arcade sometime in 1975-1976 and got a VCS on zero-day. And an Apple II shortly thereafter. Other micros would follow in time. All the while I was an avid arcade goer especially in the early 80's. And stopped going around 1995-1996. Point is that's about a 21 year span of time covering when gaming hardware was in its prime, in stores, in arcades.. And in great working condition.

 

I got into the emulation scene as soon as it popped up, sometime in 1993-1995. And 2023 is nearly upon us. I'm full-tilt into it. And that's about 30 years time. So everything makes sense. Yes.

 

Through emulation the original first b/w Atari & Kee games play just like they did back in the day.

 

Wow 1975. I think I saw my first arcade game in 1977 when me, my older brother and older cousins rode our bikes down to a local store (a department or larger store I believe) to play Midway's Sea Wolf submarine game. I was too short to play, so I just watched them play. 

 

Then in 1978 we played Space Invaders at the local 7-11 convenience store. Also around that time or shortly after larger arcades starting popping up with like 8 Space Invaders and 8 Asteroids machines all lined up. Then in 1980 Pac Man came out.

[Keatah]

3 hours ago, jd_1138 said:

Wow 1975.

The days of the mechanical Lunar Lander with motors and cables and switches.

 

3 hours ago, jd_1138 said:

I was too short to play, so I just watched them play. 

The bigger kids would hoist me up to sit on the game if it was large enough, like those 8-way racing games. Sprint 8. Or a pinball. I would sit there and watch and swear like a trucker. They'd blow this white cloud in my face and I'd do it summore. When they got serious they'd give me some coins and kick me off.

[juansolo]

On 11/30/2022 at 1:06 AM, HatefulGravey said:

Emulation has been mention a bunch here and it has made me wonder about the future of emulation. Not really of the consoles we commonly emulate now, but of consoles the kids are playing now. What will Playstation 4 or 5 emulation be like? I mean, will it even be a thing? I have to say, I don't know how anyone could collect for a system that is basically an emulation box for itself as it is, and the games are so patched and re-worked by the time they are done that getting your hands on a PS5 game in any kind of physical format might not mean much in terms of usefulness. Without access to the day one patches and fixes that are needed to make the modern game work the games may be forever unplayable. This wont only apply to the PS5, it's just the example I picked.

 

I can certainly see how the future of classic gaming might be emulation only. The kids are already used to the idea of having the games in a digital only format. 

 

I started out wondering if the 2600 would be collected in the future, now I'm wondering if video games will be collected in the future at all.

I think from the Xbox One and PS4 onward preservation/collection will be difficult. Mainly down to the online nature of the consoles and the business practices that came with it. It's common now for games not to be on discs and the discs just to be a key for a digital download. Or if the game is on the disc, it's an utterly broken mess and relies on patches that must be downloaded. So getting the game on there in a playable form is your first problem. Playing it will be the next. Online DRM is prevalent now in one form or another, especially for digital downloads. Once the servers go down, the game can no longer phone home and it won't run. Then there is the new thing, games as a service. Essentially making games an online subscription, which has all the same problems of online DRM, but they tend to die as soon as they stop making money for the publisher.

 

So much of this depends on piracy and frankly I just don't think that's prevalent enough in the modern gaming world (outside of PC) that these games will be preserved in any playable form. Which puts the onus on the publishers to make them available via backwards compatibility. Microsoft are pretty good at this to be fair and Xbox back compat covers all it's generation and quite a lot of titles. For Sony, who were brilliant up to the PS3, that's kinda gone out the window with the PS4/5. Sure the 5 can play 4 games, but your can't play Motorstom Pacific Rift, or Killzone 3, or Resistance on a 4 or 5. Can you imagine how good they'd be upscaled at 60fps... Given how poorly the PS3 was in terms of framerate and how good some of the games were, it hurts me that they don't do this. Nintendo's gonna continue being Nintendo. They'll sell you the same game over and over again and continue to be a dick to the collectors/preservationist. You'll get what you're given, you'll pay for it and you'll do as your told or else.

 

Ultimately I think collecting/preservation ends at the PS3/Xbox360. You might be able to survive until your storage dies in your PS4 with most offline things. Maybe the same for the Xbox One. Neither console I'm bothered about collecting for because of those question marks. Indeed I started selling all the games on both that were available on GOG for the PC and moving them over to that where I can be guarenteed that I actually own them and can play them when I like, rather than when they decide.