Is buying a 4 port 5200 worth it?

[Ecernosoft]

Hello!

Because I'm starting to program the Atari 8bit starting with Conner & Anthony, and it can play many of the Atari 800's library, I was looking to buy a 5200. BUT, I am from a family of 5, and was thinking about buying a 4 port model instead. It would be fun to play with the family (and for me to code some 4 player games)

 

But, I have a few questions:

0. Reliability. How reliable is a 5200 4 port? Do these break often or do they usually work? And is the 2 port better?

1. The controller problem. How costly/difficult is it to fix a broken 5200 controller? (And how much extra does it add, usually, to the price if bought with working/fixed controllers?)

2. The video issue. Is it likely that I will find a modded atari 5200 4 port over a regular one? Because I'm probably not going to put up well with the video/power box, if at all.

3. Is the 2 port more worth it than the 4 port? ( or is it significantly cheaper/more reliable?)

4. PRICE. How pricy is the average 5200? (Again, this is for a 4 port model.)

5. ATARIMAX flashcart.... this is a must.

6. Is it worth it.... period?

 

Thanks guys. (It'd be funny having my 7800 sit on top of a massive 5200, but I bet it would fit lol.)

 

Main reason I'm asking YOU and not consulting youtube is because the 5200 and youtube don't mix most of the time. sigh...

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Hmm... well I don't think I'm the best one to tell you what you should look into buying. For me I never originally planned to get a 5200 much less start a collection. But I happened upon my first 4 port console at the local flea market for about $20. It had the switch box, power supply and 2 controllers. No games though. However, those were easy for me to find back then 2nd hand at other thrift stores or even the budding retro game stores we had near me at the time. Since then, I've grown to really like the console a lot and even with the quirks you mentioned, it has been just as reliable as any other Atari console I own. But, I do need to state that a few years after I bought that 4port. It just up and died one day and would display corrupted graphics on the fuji loader screens and usually lock up at that point. I didn't have as good an access to tools and documentation then that I have now, so that 4 port became a parts donor and over time has about half of the components removed from it now. 

 

But that was all about 20 years ago... Since then I've learned a lot more about the system and become pretty familiar with it internally etc. In my opinion I don't think either version is more reliable than the other. But I will state that the 4 port models as least most of them, have their main IC chips in sockets making some common replacement component fix issues much easier. Yes the 4 port does indeed have 4 working controller ports. But it also had a little more hardware in side to handle that. Additional ICs that can fail that there aren't as many of on the 2 port and that don't seem to be quite a failure prone as they are on the 4port. The 4port does indeed use that odd power/switch box combo. But I've talked about that already. And it is a pretty simple matter to modify the console to have a separate DC input jack like the 2 port model does. You can even still use the same PSU to power it and still use the RF by just using the cable like you would from a 2600 at that point.

 

If you want better video from it, there are really only 2 primary options I can advise. The UAV is the most common upgrade to install and for 90% of the folks out there, it is likely good enough. Especially from the s-video output as it does look quite sharp and nice from a 5200. The 2nd and more expensive option is to go with the Sophia upgrade board. It isn't terribly difficult to install but does use a DVI output connector to use or convert that over to HDMI. You still have to get the audio separately and run that to external speakers or an AV receiver amp if going that route. For me I have an OSSC and my Extron and it allows me to use pretty much all analog video input signals minus RF and give me a wonderful VGA converted signal I can feed to my OSSC. I'm stating that I've never had the desire to RGB upgrade the 5200 when the s-video output results look as good as they do already from my 5200.

 

I believe most folks my be mixed on which version of the 5200 is worth more or I should say is more desirable. There were only a few games released that took advantage of the 4 players officially and in fact I can only think of Breakout and Tennis off the top of my head that supported all for players. There are some homebrew releases that take advantage of more players but for me, no one else in my house has any interest in the older consoles so that isn't a factor for me.

 

Cosmetically the 2 port consoles feature a more matte looking finish across the console while most of the 4port consoles have a mix of piano finish on the controller storage cover and controller port bezel. I like that piano smooth finish more but even having said that, my current 4 port has the piano controller cover but a matte bezel on the front. So that is really up to your preference. Aside from that, they work the exact same and play the same games. Yes the 2 port doesn't work initially with 3 official games, but you can get 4port BIOS chips to replace the 2port BIOS to correct for that. It is literally a drop in chip replacement with no other modification required to do this.

 

The AtariMax cart is very cool but also was one of the more expensive flash carts in my collection. There is now very decent 5200 support in the BackBit Pro cartridge and I have one of the adapters and have been using it more lately since I can actually reset back to the game menu without having to hard power cycle the console as is required with the AtariMax.

 

[Ecernosoft]

4 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Hmm... well I don't think I'm the best one to tell you what you should look into buying. For me I never originally planned to get a 5200 much less start a collection. But I happened upon my first 4 port console at the local flea market for about $20. It had the switch box, power supply and 2 controllers. No games though. However, those were easy for me to find back then 2nd hand at other thrift stores or even the budding retro game stores we had near me at the time. Since then, I've grown to really like the console a lot and even with the quirks you mentioned, it has been just as reliable as any other Atari console I own. But, I do need to state that a few years after I bought that 4port. It just up and died one day and would display corrupted graphics on the fuji loader screens and usually lock up at that point. I didn't have as good an access to tools and documentation then that I have now, so that 4 port became a parts donor and over time has about half of the components removed from it now. 

 

But that was all about 20 years ago... Since then I've learned a lot more about the system and become pretty familiar with it internally etc. In my opinion I don't think either version is more reliable than the other. But I will state that the 4 port models as least most of them, have their main IC chips in sockets making some common replacement component fix issues much easier. Yes the 4 port does indeed have 4 working controller ports. But it also had a little more hardware in side to handle that. Additional ICs that can fail that there aren't as many of on the 2 port and that don't seem to be quite a failure prone as they are on the 4port. The 4port does indeed use that odd power/switch box combo. But I've talked about that already. And it is a pretty simple matter to modify the console to have a separate DC input jack like the 2 port model does. You can even still use the same PSU to power it and still use the RF by just using the cable like you would from a 2600 at that point.

 

If you want better video from it, there are really only 2 primary options I can advise. The UAV is the most common upgrade to install and for 90% of the folks out there, it is likely good enough. Especially from the s-video output as it does look quite sharp and nice from a 5200. The 2nd and more expensive option is to go with the Sophia upgrade board. It isn't terribly difficult to install but does use a DVI output connector to use or convert that over to HDMI. You still have to get the audio separately and run that to external speakers or an AV receiver amp if going that route. For me I have an OSSC and my Extron and it allows me to use pretty much all analog video input signals minus RF and give me a wonderful VGA converted signal I can feed to my OSSC. I'm stating that I've never had the desire to RGB upgrade the 5200 when the s-video output results look as good as they do already from my 5200.

 

I believe most folks my be mixed on which version of the 5200 is worth more or I should say is more desirable. There were only a few games released that took advantage of the 4 players officially and in fact I can only think of Breakout and Tennis off the top of my head that supported all for players. There are some homebrew releases that take advantage of more players but for me, no one else in my house has any interest in the older consoles so that isn't a factor for me.

 

Cosmetically the 2 port consoles feature a more matte looking finish across the console while most of the 4port consoles have a mix of piano finish on the controller storage cover and controller port bezel. I like that piano smooth finish more but even having said that, my current 4 port has the piano controller cover but a matte bezel on the front. So that is really up to your preference. Aside from that, they work the exact same and play the same games. Yes the 2 port doesn't work initially with 3 official games, but you can get 4port BIOS chips to replace the 2port BIOS to correct for that. It is literally a drop in chip replacement with no other modification required to do this.

 

The AtariMax cart is very cool but also was one of the more expensive flash carts in my collection. There is now very decent 5200 support in the BackBit Pro cartridge and I have one of the adapters and have been using it more lately since I can actually reset back to the game menu without having to hard power cycle the console as is required with the AtariMax.

 

Reminder that Me getting a 5200 is less for the games themselves. I'm no collector. I wanted a 5200 to go with my 2600 and 7800 and also so I could play atari with more than one person at a time. I'd gladly code some more 4 player games and loose some graphics quality by coding the 5200. And with more and more arcade ports coming to the 7800, if I want to play arcade games I'll just use the 7800.

 

The main reasons I want a 5200 are 1. To play my Atari 8bit/5200 software on real hardware and 2. To play Atari with the entire family (almost).  Especially our friends who are a family of 7 (now 8 ) and really enjoyed the 7800 when I brought it. 

 

It's ok if I get a 2 port..... but then what's the point?

 

Heck, I bet you could add 4 player support using 2 port models. Is there some sort of contraption that allows 4 player games on 2 port models?

 

(Also, Composite is good enough for me. It would be nice as even if I can't get composite, I plan to mod my 7800 for S-video. So the 5200 would be RF (or composite), the 2600 would be composite (It came modded) and the 7800 would be S-video, but there'd be no point in having the 2600 except for a select few games. So the 5200 would be composite and the 7800 would be S-video.)

Edited January 3, 2023 by Ecernosoft

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Well then as you appear to have your mind already made up, why did you ask for opinions on which model to get? 

 

If you want and plan to use and make games that use all 4 ports, then by all means go for that model.

 

But I do advise that if you want composite, you still need to go with the UAV to provide this. But if you choose to do the modification work yourself, make sure that you keep that 4050 IC chip in circuit so that the RF will still be usable should you decide you still need it. And yes I know the UAV is more expensive than say a simple composite only board, but those require removing the RF modulator along with other components to get the best output from them. The UAV requires nothing to be removed internally and I'm always on board with allowing as many output options as possible on these consoles.

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Well then as you appear to have your mind already made up, why did you ask for opinions on which model to get? 

 

If you want and plan to use and make games that use all 4 ports, then by all means go for that model.

 

But I do advise that if you want composite, you still need to go with the UAV to provide this. But if you choose to do the modification work yourself, make sure that you keep that 4050 IC chip in circuit so that the RF will still be usable should you decide you still need it. And yes I know the UAV is more expensive than say a simple composite only board, but those require removing the RF modulator along with other components to get the best output from them. The UAV requires nothing to be removed internally and I'm always on board with allowing as many output options as possible on these consoles.

I asked because I didn't know, and the internet is a convoluted place. 

 

I will use all 4 ports if I can, of course!

 

Thanks for the pointers on where to go. Of course, knowing that you have a long history in modding, I'll be sure to keep that in mind. 😃 

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

There were only a few games released that took advantage of the 4 players officially and in fact I can only think of Breakout and Tennis off the top of my head that supported all for players.

I want to say that the port of MULE from the A8 supports four players as well, but, as I'm a 2-port owner, can't confirm

2 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Yes the 2 port doesn't work initially with 3 official games, but you can get 4port BIOS chips to replace the 2port BIOS to correct for that. It is literally a drop in chip replacement with no other modification required to do this.

If we're talking about K-Razy Shootout, Mountain King, and Pitfall!, there are also versions of those that have been hacked to run on 2-port systems with the 2-port BIOS.  I've been debating possibly installing a 4-port BIOS, but it's been a low-priority consideration as I'm not aware of any other advantages besides those games working directly.

2 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

The AtariMax cart is very cool but also was one of the more expensive flash carts in my collection. There is now very decent 5200 support in the BackBit Pro cartridge and I have one of the adapters and have been using it more lately since I can actually reset back to the game menu without having to hard power cycle the console as is required with the AtariMax.

Totally agreed re: the Atarimax.  I like mine and am overall happy with it, but they're not cheap.  FWIW, my understanding is that current models are coming with a reset button on the cartridge, so that's a definite plus.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

9 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Totally agreed re: the Atarimax.  I like mine and am overall happy with it, but they're not cheap.  FWIW, my understanding is that current models are coming with a reset button on the cartridge, so that's a definite plus.

It has a spot on the PCB for a reset button, but I've not heard of any that actually have it populated. Part of the issue is that the 4port models do NOT have a pin on the cartridge port that is connected to the reset line and apparently the 2 port models and VCS adapter modified 4ports do. So it is possible to have a hard reset for those consoles. 

 

Even with the BackBit cart, I still had to do a very small wire bodge to connect an unused pin on the cartridge port to the Antic's reset line in order for it to work on the 4port properly. 2 port models work without such modification.

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

It has a spot on the PCB for a reset button, but I've not heard of any that actually have it populated. Part of the issue is that the 4port models do NOT have a pin on the cartridge port that is connected to the reset line and apparently the 2 port models and VCS adapter modified 4ports do. So it is possible to have a hard reset for those consoles. 

Hold on a minute.

 

 

Does the atari 5200 not have a reset button? (the 4 port model, what I want to buy)

3 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I want to say that the port of MULE from the A8 supports four players as well, but, as I'm a 2-port owner, can't confirm

If we're talking about K-Razy Shootout, Mountain King, and Pitfall!, there are also versions of those that have been hacked to run on 2-port systems with the 2-port BIOS.  I've been debating possibly installing a 4-port BIOS, but it's been a low-priority consideration as I'm not aware of any other advantages besides those games working directly.

Totally agreed re: the Atarimax.  I like mine and am overall happy with it, but they're not cheap.  FWIW, my understanding is that current models are coming with a reset button on the cartridge, so that's a definite plus.

1. M.U.L.E. on 5200?!?!?!?! SHOW ME. I WANT TO SEE THIS!

2. I'd go with the hacked version since if you want to use the 2600 adapter, you need the 2 port bios if I'm not mistaken.

3. Mountain king is practically my favorite 5200 game unless you show me beserk with 4 players on a 5200, that excludes my games, or any homebrew. Otherwise Montezuma's revenge if that exists for 5200 which I think it does.

[zylon]

I use a stock, as issued 1982, 4 port. I've done a few repairs, flip-flop IC for power switch, transistor and voltage comparator inside switchbox. Life's good. Were I building the ultimate 5200 to possibly develop something to the system's full potential, then I'd build a 4-port. Use upgraded mobo, add composite, power mod, and you've got the right BIOS, 4 port use, and the VCS adaptor possibility. Building up a 2-port, only deletes the 3-4 port usage. Of note, running flascarts/SD loader type carts, does seem to use more power, and I get the color change from heat sooner, than using a standard cart.

The extra ports do offer some unique possibilities, such as multi-player tank games, or robotron style shooters. A 4 player deathmatch version of tron deadly discs, would even be possible.

Edited January 4, 2023 by zylon

[+-^CrossBow^-]

11 minutes ago, zylon said:

A 4 player deathmatch version of tron deadly discs, would even be possible.

Thanks to @Ryan Witmer We have Intellidiscs on the 5200 that offers exactly this possibility.

 

@Ecernosoft Yes there is a special conversion of M.U.L.E. from the 8-bits that works on the AtariMax SD cart. But it requires that cart far as I know. Although now that I think about it, I do believe some physical release of the game on carts was done on a limited basis several years back. I missed out on that as I found out about M.U.L.E. too late to get one. And yes I do believe it supports all 4 players. But I kinda count that a 'homebrew' since it wasn't originally released on the 5200 back in the day and is a conversion.

 

[zylon]

30 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Thanks to @Ryan Witmer We have Intellidiscs on the 5200 that offers exactly this possibility.

 

@Ecernosoft Yes there is a special conversion of M.U.L.E. from the 8-bits that works on the AtariMax SD cart. But it requires that cart far as I know. Although now that I think about it, I do believe some physical release of the game on carts was done on a limited basis several years back. I missed out on that as I found out about M.U.L.E. too late to get one. And yes I do believe it supports all 4 players. But I kinda count that a 'homebrew' since it wasn't originally released on the 5200 back in the day and is a conversion.

 

That's so on my "to buy" list now, lol. I think Armor Ambush would be a great twin-stick 2-player game too. Next hard limitation is memory. I'd wonder if it couldn't be brought up to even A800 levels.

Edited January 4, 2023 by zylon

[Ecernosoft]

12 hours ago, zylon said:

That's so on my "to buy" list now, lol. I think Armor Ambush would be a great twin-stick 2-player game too. Next hard limitation is memory. I'd wonder if it couldn't be brought up to even A800 levels.

once you hear a version exists for your platform....

...There's nothing you can do...

 You're getting it!  

 

I mean comeon, Mule is fantastic.

13 hours ago, zylon said:

I use a stock, as issued 1982, 4 port. I've done a few repairs, flip-flop IC for power switch, transistor and voltage comparator inside switchbox. Life's good. If I was building the ultimate 5200 to possibly develop something to the system's full potential, then I'd build a 4-port. Use upgraded mobo, add composite, power mod, and you've got the right BIOS, 4 port use, and the VCS adaptor possibility. Building up a 2-port, only deletes the 3-4 port usage. Of note, running flascarts/SD loader type carts, does seem to use more power, and I get the color change from heat sooner, than using a standard cart.

The extra ports do offer some unique possibilities, such as multi-player tank games, or robotron style shooters. A 4 player deathmatch version of tron deadly discs, would even be possible.

Also some more good pointers besides the other mentioned pointers. Thanks!

[+x=usr(1536)]

11 hours ago, zylon said:

and the VCS adaptor possibility

@zylon, this reply isn't specifically in response to you - it just seemed like a convenient time to mention a few things.

1. Installing a UAV will make the adapter not usable as there is no path for the adapter's video output to take to the UAV; this applies to both 2- and 4-port 5200s, as well as potentially any A/V upgrade.  This is a hardware limitation of the designs of the adapter, 5200, and UAV with no easy workarounds.
2. No Colour / B&W switch means that if a game uses that switch as a control, it won't be able to make use of it.  Not an extensive issue, but worth being aware of.
3. Price of the VCS adapters is starting out outstrip that of some of the dedicated consoles.
4. There isn't anywhere near as much support available for them as for the dedicated consoles, and troubleshooting them can be a pain because - by default - they need to be in a 5200 in order to work.  Figuring out if an issue is isolated to the adapter can be frustrating as a result.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a CX-55 with the intention of having it replace a dedicated 2600 or 7800.  They're definitely a neat item, but given the compromises involved make more sense as an item to collect than as something to use regularly.  Note that I say this as someone who really likes the CX-55, and sees it as a rather nifty device, but recognises that there are better ways to play 2600 games.

[Ecernosoft]

12 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

@zylon, this reply isn't specifically in response to you - it just seemed like a convenient time to mention a few things.

1. Installing a UAV will make the adapter not usable as there is no path for the adapter's video output to take to the UAV; this applies to both 2- and 4-port 5200s, as well as potentially any A/V upgrade.  This is a hardware limitation of the designs of the adapter, 5200, and UAV with no easy workarounds.
2. No Colour / B&W switch means that if a game uses that switch as a control, it won't be able to make use of it.  Not an extensive issue, but worth being aware of.
3. Price of the VCS adapters is starting out outstrip that of some of the dedicated consoles.
4. There isn't anywhere near as much support available for them as for the dedicated consoles, and troubleshooting them can be a pain because - by default - they need to be in a 5200 in order to work.  Figuring out if an issue is isolated to the adapter can be frustrating as a result.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a CX-55 with the intention of having it replace a dedicated 2600 or 7800.  They're definitely a neat item, but given the compromises involved make more sense as an item to collect than as something to use regularly.  Note that I say this as someone who really likes the CX-55, and sees it as a rather nifty device, but recognises that there are better ways to play 2600 games.

1. (ignored since I have a 7800)

2. I'm pretty sure there isn't such a button on the 5200 alone anyway, and we have 18 buttons on each controller so heck I'm not using any console buttons either. 

3. (ignored since I have a 2600 as well)

4. (ignored for the above reasons)

 

Yeah, I agree. CX-55? No. Just buy a 7800. And the video output on it is.... something to say the least. Especially since It's RF, you can't get better video with it, etc....

With the 7800 being more common and reliable, (heck, the 2600 adapter on Atariage costs as much as an origonal 7800 from back in the day) just use that. 

 

However, I have 2 questions.

 

First question- If I (for some bizarre reason) have BOUGHT a 2600 adapter, can I use the 5200 sound/graphics for 2600 games? There's enough RAM in the 5200 for me to just load ICT1 AND 2 into memory at the same time. I don't think so but it would be a nice reason to have the 2600 adapter at all. Sadly I don't think this is possible.

 

Second question- Can you include In-CART video/audio on the 5200? If the VCS adapter exists, you should be able to. Yet I see no games showing this potential.
 

Thanks. 

[BIGHMW]

9 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

@zylon, this reply isn't specifically in response to you - it just seemed like a convenient time to mention a few things.

1. Installing a UAV will make the adapter not usable as there is no path for the adapter's video output to take to the UAV; this applies to both 2- and 4-port 5200s, as well as potentially any A/V upgrade.  This is a hardware limitation of the designs of the adapter, 5200, and UAV with no easy workarounds.
2. No Colour / B&W switch means that if a game uses that switch as a control, it won't be able to make use of it.  Not an extensive issue, but worth being aware of.
3. Price of the VCS adapters is starting out outstrip that of some of the dedicated consoles.
4. There isn't anywhere near as much support available for them as for the dedicated consoles, and troubleshooting them can be a pain because - by default - they need to be in a 5200 in order to work.  Figuring out if an issue is isolated to the adapter can be frustrating as a result.

Quite honestly, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a CX-55 with the intention of having it replace a dedicated 2600 or 7800.  They're definitely a neat item, but given the compromises involved make more sense as an item to collect than as something to use regularly.  Note that I say this as someone who really likes the CX-55, and sees it as a rather nifty device, but recognises that there are better ways to play 2600 games.

....and that is why I also have a 7800, in which, while she may not have a B&W/color switch she plays about every 2600 cartridge (yes even on a Harmony Encore), plus everybody here agrees that I should just save my dough, get ahead on my bills and then wait out for my income tax refund in February or March, and then get my 7800 repaired instead of getting my VCS/2600 adapter fixed, as much as I hate to admit, dedicated consoles are definitely THE WAY to go rather than using an adapter, the same goes for all Coleco or Intellivision owners too, as one prominent 60's Motown group (also covered by the great Michael McDonald on his 2001 album "Motown") once said ".....ain't nothin' like the real thing baby".

[+x=usr(1536)]

20 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

2. I'm pretty sure there isn't such a button on the 5200 alone anyway, and we have 18 buttons on each controller so heck I'm not using any console buttons either.

The 5200 has no Colour / B&W switch; that is correct.  The 2600 does, however, but the CX-55 - despite being essentially a complete 2600 minus RF output and two switches - does not.

 

Bear in mind that the 5200's controls aren't used with the CX-55 inserted.  The 5200 is literally just there to power the adapter and give it a way to output its audio and video.  That's it.

20 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

And the video output on it is.... something to say the least. Especially since It's RF, you can't get better video with it, etc....

About the adapter's video output: it generates composite and nothing else.  That composite signal travels from the adapter to the 5200's RF modulator via a path that is effectively completely separate from the 5200's video generation circuit. It's injected into the 5200's RF modulator for output at pretty much the last possible moment it can be.

 

While this gives the CX-55 the distinction of being the only Atari-manufactured 2600 variant to have composite video output from the factory, it also means that it doesn't generate signals that are compatible with a UAV.  Even using a comb filter or similar to separate chroma and luma from the adapter's composite signal isn't worth it, since the UAV still needs to be fed sync and LUM0-2 from the TIA - and there's no good way of doing that.

 

A comb filter could conceivably eliminate the need for a UAV by providing separate chroma and luma signals (and thus S-Video output), given that chroma and luma were derived from a composite signal, they're not going to look as good as the same signals generated by the TIA.  There's no way to untangle the two without losing at least some of both signals in the process, so it's not unlikely that S-Video derived in this manner may look worse than composite.

20 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

First question- If I (for some bizarre reason) have BOUGHT a 2600 adapter, can I use the 5200 sound/graphics for 2600 games? There's enough RAM in the 5200 for me to just load ICT1 AND 2 into memory at the same time. I don't think so but it would be a nice reason to have the 2600 adapter at all. Sadly I don't think this is possible.

Not possible in stock form.  The adapter only uses a subset of the pins available on the cartridge port; IIRC, the address and data lines aren't amongst them.

 

You'd probably have better luck building a POKEY / GTIA / ANTIC module to graft onto a 2600 if that's what you're looking for - but even that's not really worth it when things like DPC+ are viable alternatives.

20 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

Second question- Can you include In-CART video/audio on the 5200? If the VCS adapter exists, you should be able to. Yet I see no games showing this potential.

You'd have to generate composite video on the cartridge, then send that back down to the 5200.  Possible, but more of a pain than it's worth.  There's also no genlocking (though that might be able to be worked around with clock sync), and you'd still be using the 5200's RF output due to the signal path from the cartridge.  You'd end up with essentially two hard-bridged composite sources going out of the RF modulator, which would probably not look good at all.  Same for audio.

 

One thing I haven't mentioned: it is possible to install a UAV in a CX-55 - space for the board is available and all of the necessary pins it needs to be fed with are there.  Mounting A/V jacks to the case would be an interesting exercise, however, due to both the tiny amount of internal space available at the case walls and the construction of the unit itself.  Using a TRRS connector for that may be an option, but then you're using a TRRS connector.  Ugh.  Maybe a ribbon cable feeding out of the cartridge port would do it.

 

As an aside, assuming that the perfboard ordered last month departs China prior to their two-week-long New Year celebrations starting on the 22nd, I'll have something put together reasonably soon that will allow running the adapter on the bench.  No UAV, just the adapter's native composite and audio outputs for now.  Note that I'm doing this solely for the sake of a couple of experiments for which the unit needs to be outside of a 5200; if I really wanted a two-switch 2600 with no RF output I'd just get a Jr. and at least gain back that functionality.

[zylon]

3 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

The 5200 has no Colour / B&W switch; that is correct.  The 2600 does, however, but the CX-55 - despite being essentially a complete 2600 minus RF output and two switches - does not.

 

Bear in mind that the 5200's controls aren't used with the CX-55 inserted.  The 5200 is literally just there to power the adapter and give it a way to output its audio and video.  That's it.

About the adapter's video output: it generates composite and nothing else.  That composite signal travels from the adapter to the 5200's RF modulator via a path that is effectively completely separate from the 5200's video generation circuit before being injected into the 5200's RF modulator for output at pretty much the last possible moment it can be.

 

While this gives the CX-55 the distinction of being the only Atari-manufactured 2600 variant to have composite video output from the factory, it also means that it doesn't generate signals that are compatible with a UAV.  Even using a comb filter or similar to separate chroma and luma from the adapter's composite signal isn't worth it, since the UAV still needs to be fed sync and LUM0-2 from the TIA - and there's no good way of doing that.

 

A comb filter could conceivably eliminate the need for a UAV by providing separate chroma and luma signals (and thus S-Video output), given that chroma and luma were derived from a composite signal, they're not going to look as good as the same signals generated by the TIA.  There's no way to untangle the two without losing at least some of both signals in the process, so it's not unlikely that S-Video derived in this manner may look worse than composite.

Not possible in stock form.  The adapter only uses a subset of the pins available on the cartridge port; IIRC, the address and data lines aren't amongst them.

 

You'd probably have better luck building a POKEY / GTIA / ANTIC module to graft onto a 2600 if that's what you're looking for - but even that's not really worth it when things like DPC+ are viable alternatives.

You'd have to generate composite video on the cartridge, then send that back down to the 5200.  Possible, but more of a pain than it's worth.  There's also no genlocking (though that might be able to be worked around with clock sync), and you'd still be using the 5200's RF output due to the signal path from the cartridge.  You'd end up with essentially two hard-bridged composite sources going out of the RF modulator, which would probably not look good at all.  Same for audio.

 

One thing I haven't mentioned: it is possible to install a UAV in a CX-55 - space for the board is available and all of the necessary pins it needs to be fed with are there.  Mounting A/V jacks to the case would be an interesting exercise, however, due to both the tiny amount of internal space available at the case walls and the construction of the unit itself.  Using a TRRS connector for that may be an option, but then you're using a TRRS connector.  Ugh.  Maybe a ribbon cable feeding out of the cartridge port would do it.

 

As an aside, assuming that the perfboard ordered last month departs China prior to their two-week-long New Year celebrations starting on the 22nd, I'll have something put together reasonably soon that will allow running the adapter on the bench.  No UAV, just the adapter's native composite and audio outputs for now.  Note that I'm doing this solely for the sake of a couple of experiments for which the unit needs to be outside of a 5200; if I really wanted a two-switch 2600 with no RF output I'd just get a Jr. and at least gain back that functionality.

That leads right back to what we were discussing prior, about the 5200 power circuit twin paths, the logic side and video side. Using the cx55, because of a pin not being used, causes a break in the logic power circuit, letting only the video side run, to be hijacked by the giant 2600 cart. That's why the cx55 uses a full 2600 chipset inside

[duckodb]

I don’t understand why everybody thinks that RF/power box the 4 port uses is such a terrible thing? You plug the thing to your tv like you have to with any console then you forget about it, you don’t even have to reach back there and flip a tv/game switch like all the other Atari consoles you just turn the power on and bam the game comes on like a Nintendo or PS5 does. I personally prefer to keep all my old consoles original or it seems like it’s defeating the purpose. Seems easiest to have a 4 port 5200 and a 7800 then you can play all the Atari console games without modifying anything or using any adapters. I have a 65” Samsung 4K UHD tv and all my old consoles work fine on it unmodded. The main issue I see you having if you want a 4 port for 4 people to be able to play regularly is trying to keep that many controllers working for very long. 

[zylon]

15 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

once you hear a version exists for your platform....

...There's nothing you can do...

 You're getting it!  

 

I mean comeon, Mule is fantastic.

Also some more good pointers besides the other mentioned pointers. Thanks!

The multi-player, dual controller setup just has possibilities that never got explored on the 5200. Something like the arcade twin-stick Karate Champ, or similar duel involving swords, even a few FPS possibilities. RAM being a key limitation there.

[+x=usr(1536)]

36 minutes ago, zylon said:

That leads right back to what we were discussing prior, about the 5200 power circuit twin paths, the logic side and video side.

Finding the CX-55 service manual was an absolute godsend.  That gave me the missing bits and pieces I needed in order to understand the relationship between the 5200, VCS adapter, and how things worked once the adapter was inserted.

36 minutes ago, zylon said:

Using the cx55, because of a pin not being used, causes a break in the logic power circuit, letting only the video side run, to be hijacked by the giant 2600 cart. That's why the cx55 uses a full 2600 chipset inside

What's interesting is that the only part of the 5200's video circuit the adapter really uses is the RF modulator.  With a little bit more effort, it would have been possible to instead reroute that power directly to the RF modulator and also disable the video side.  Kinda surprised they didn't do it that way, now that I think of it.

[zylon]

23 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Finding the CX-55 service manual was an absolute godsend.  That gave me the missing bits and pieces I needed in order to understand the relationship between the 5200, VCS adapter, and how things worked once the adapter was inserted.

What's interesting is that the only part of the 5200's video circuit the adapter really uses is the RF modulator.  With a little bit more effort, it would have been possible to instead reroute that power directly to the RF modulator and also disable the video side.  Kinda surprised they didn't do it that way, now that I think of it.

They were under a lot of pressure for backwards compatibility, not wanting to lose out to their own prior product, the 2600. With the 4-port being already sold a year before, they built the 2-port with it in mind, but also were limited to what they could easily convert existing 4-port consoles to do. A case of the 1st architecture limiting the future. Mattel and Coleco did similar, in a bid to claim those same customers, so they did exactly the same.

Edited January 5, 2023 by zylon

[Ecernosoft]

12 hours ago, zylon said:

RAM being a key limitation there.

Welp the highest RAM requirement by ANTIC is 8k. If you need more than 8k for the cpu, add extra RAM right?

[Ecernosoft]

12 hours ago, duckodb said:

I don’t understand why everybody thinks that RF/power box the 4 port uses is such a terrible thing? You plug the thing to your tv like you have to with any console then you forget about it, you don’t even have to reach back there and flip a tv/game switch like all the other Atari consoles you just turn the power on and bam the game comes on like a Nintendo or PS5 does. I personally prefer to keep all my old consoles original or it seems like it’s defeating the purpose. Seems easiest to have a 4 port 5200 and a 7800 then you can play all the Atari console games without modifying anything or using any adapters. I have a 65” Samsung 4K UHD tv and all my old consoles work fine on it unmodded. The main issue I see you having if you want a 4 port for 4 people to be able to play regularly is trying to keep that many controllers working for very long. 

I’ll admit, most of my opinion is based on YOU guys for the 5200. Except from a programming standpoint, where I much prefer the 5200 over the intelivision or colecovosion or C64.

[Flyindrew]

A recommendation based on personal experience. Do your homework and research if the unit had any work/upgrades to it particularly as it relates to the 4052 MUX or POKEY chips or if there are any prior issues. Additionally, make sure you get a warrantee. Owning a 5200 can be a frustrating experience. Its super fantastic machine when it works, but the hardware is so brittle, and thats not even counting the actual controllers.

[Keatah]

3 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

I’ll admit, most of my opinion is based on YOU guys for the 5200. Except from a programming standpoint, where I much prefer the 5200 over the intelivision or colecovosion or C64.

Well yes the 5200 certainly has better custom chips than Intellivision or Colecovision, more of them too. The C64 comes closer with SID and VIC-II, but IMHO still doesn't trump it either.

 

Did anyone ever do memory upgrades for the 5200? Or is it simply more practical to go straight to the computer lineup?