Lotharek MiST v1.5 now available for pre-order

[eightbit]

Not a "Classic Computer" per-se, but I feel this should be added here as it is an FPGA computer that implements a lot of classic computers...so...

 

A few months ago I signed up for my interest in an updated MiST computer. Lotharek at the time was gauging interest in making a new updated run with some significant updates (double the RAM, fixes, etc.) and considering the DE-10 Nano is so pricey and impossible to obtain I figured this can be the time for the MiST again. 

 

I had a v1.4 which I gave to my brother as a birthday gift and I sold one here on AA some time ago and man have I regretted that (not the gift part, love my brother. The selling the second unit part!) and when I went to buy another one to my dismay it was unavailable with no ETA of it coming back. 

 

Now, it is back, and updated. Shipping at the tail end of March. I ordered one and figured I would pass along the good news to others itching for FPGA goodness:

 

https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=45

 

 

[newtmonkey]

I'm a big fan of the good old MiST.  I use mine just for its Amiga and Atari ST cores, and couldn't be happier with it.  It's just a great all-in-one solution with basically no configuration required.

[wierd_w]

Just to clarify, the 1.5 version does NOT require a DE10-Nano?

 

Getting a mist off fleabay was pricy but possible, but the DE10-Nano was exorbitantly expensive.

 

If they integrated a suitable fpga onto the 1.5 mister, so it no longer needs one, the site does not say so. 

 

 

[eightbit]

3 hours ago, wierd_w said:

Just to clarify, the 1.5 version does NOT require a DE10-Nano?

 

Getting a mist off fleabay was pricy but possible, but the DE10-Nano was exorbitantly expensive.

 

If they integrated a suitable fpga onto the 1.5 mister, so it no longer needs one, the site does not say so. 

 

 

 

 

Doesn't require anything but a VGA capable display, a power supply and a controller (and a keyboard, mouse). Its a pre-built solution that has existed way before MiSTer was a thing. It never needed some external FPGA added to it so I don't know where that confusion came from.

 

The MiST came first. It is an all on one board solution with FPGA (Cyclone III) integrated on the board, ram integrated, USB, MIDI ports, etc. The MiST(er) project came when people found the DE-10 Nano educational board can be expanded upon and turned into a MiST with a Cyclone V and 128MB of ram and so on.

 

The problem with the MiSTer had always been the fact that it relies on that DE-10 Nano board. That board was never meant for the general public, although people had been able to get them to build these things until now. But, what happens to the MiSTer project when the DE-10 Nano production stops? Unless a better solution than relying on one lone board is found the project is bound to die.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by eightbit

[Arnuphis]

I have one of the original Lotharek Mists and its great. Shame the cores were neglected due to everyone jumping to the MiSTer but the Amiga and Atari ST cores are great. It has built in Midi ports as well. He makes quality stuff. I have HxCs and SIO2SD units from him.

[eightbit]

While many cores continue to get updated for the MiST (although not nearly as much as MiSTer) maybe with the MiST coming "back" and the PITA it has become to obtain an affordable DE-10 Nano people will come back and work more on the device. As it stands now it has all of the cores I personally need, but now with more RAM comes more possibilities. 

 

From a price point it is now really a much better deal. A DE-10 Nano board with nothing else is a whopping $225 from Terasic...that is if they are available. The MiST which is an all in one solution, ready to go, in a nice metal case ran me around $240 shipped. 

 

I am just glad to see some FPGA solution available again. I didn't expect a new run of MiST machines to ever happen again to be quite honest.

[wierd_w]

I see!

 

Is there a reason they stayed with the cyclone 3, rather than the more capable cyclone 5?

 

They could have kneecapped mister if they had done the latter..

 

 

[eightbit]

25 minutes ago, wierd_w said:

I see!

 

Is there a reason they stayed with the cyclone 3, rather than the more capable cyclone 5?

 

They could have kneecapped mister if they had done the latter..

 

 

 

 

It is too pricey for Lotharek to use the Cyclone V. There's a whole thread where Till (the other MiST developer) posted some years back about the reasons why the MiST was retired at the time (but now it's back thankfully!). At the time in 2018 the MiST was more expensive than alternatives. Now in 2023 it is a complete role reversal which I find astounding. Its a good read:

 

https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=115&t=32998&fbclid=IwAR3a6W6FYKmtQKzS6iJhjt-HX9hQ76F83e3ndtPthxst2_2GEe6gvFiYU18

 

Having owned both the MiST and the MiSTer I can say that the cores available for both (Amiga, ST, Genesis, TG16, SNES, NES, and so on) perform the same. There is a matter of the Cyclone III not having as many gates as the V, so some cores do not have as much as MiSTer cores. For example, the Genesis core on the MiSTer supports CD-ROM games while the core on the MiST only supports cartridge ROMs. When the SNES core was ported to the MiST the developer had to work really hard to get it to fit inside of the Cyclone III. He did it amazingly but said that core literally filled it to the last gate!

 

Previous MiST consoles only had 32MB of memory. Because of that there was no Neo-Geo core. Most Neo-Geo games require more ram. Now with 64MB onboard that should open up a large portion of the collection should someone port the Neo-Geo core (or write one).

 

It's really about amount of programmable gates and RAM. There are a few things the MiSTer can do that the MiST cannot, but nothing that (to me) makes buying a MiST over a MiSTer a deal breaker. It's certainly a boatload cheaper for everything you get all encased into a ready to go console.

 

Everything I want to play runs (8-16 bit game consoles and computers) and runs on precise FPGA hardware. If you have never used one before you should make sure you experience it at some point. It is not like emulation. It's like the real consoles/computers....that is if the cores are mature. And, most of the popular ones have been mature for years. To give you an idea, I have an already tested and prepared 128GB SD card filled nearly to the max with a ton of stuff for the MiST, from arcade games to consoles, to various computer cores. More than enough to keep me busy for the rest of my life

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by eightbit

[Keatah]

I appreciate both pros and cons of FPGA and Software Emulation.

 

I'm remaining in the SE camp and continuing to promote it for many reasons. Now more than ever. And it's because of platform longevity and consistency. SE has and continues to evolve across x86/Windows and Linux, to a lesser extent MAC also. This huge installed base of hardware lends stability, which encourages developers to continue.

 

MiST has a discontinuity of several years now, and the hardware seems only marginally more powerful since it's still using Cyclone III. MiSTer is at risk of falling out of favor due to high cost and eventual discontinuation of the base hardware. But more-than-capable PCs are in the $500-600 range, new. Used or off-lease are cheaper. Hand-me-downs are free. And tons of stuff made in the past 10 years will run SE splendidly.

 

Everyone is familiar with Windows/Linux. It doesn't take any explanation or specialized purchases.

[wierd_w]

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

But more-than-capable PCs are in the $500-600 range, new. Used or off-lease are cheaper.

 

 

Cheaper!

If you dont mind a little ear pulling, you can transform a weak-kneed chromebook into a very nice emulation platform.

100$ pricepoint is VERY doable.  (check out mrchromebox.tech, for details! Getting a "Real" UEFI firmware on that 100$ POS is quite doable!)

It is more than powerful enough to doe UAE, ST emulation, DosBox, and pals.  EmulationStation on it would be quite doable.

[eightbit]

Ever CHEAPER:

 

Free Pentium 4 2.8GHz machine from the neighbor down the road

 

No, seriously. I will never knock software emulation. I have been an advocate for it since...well...the beginnings. I had discovered SE in the mid-90's with DOS emulators from Bloodlust and so on, and of course PacMame (which became Mame). I have followed it all for so many years. Dave's Video Game Classics, Retrogames. I remember when Attila posted "OH MY GOD" and that was it. The day N64 emulation via UltraHLE was released making use of 3dfx Glide. I was the moderator for the emulation forums on Digital Press for some years before it were taken down due to Joe's concern over ROM talk. 

 

So, yeah. I have been into it and know it pretty well. And, its GREAT! I am still a huge fan of single console/system emulators from the old days (Kega, SNES9x, ZSNES, Dega, WinKawaks, Nesticle, Genecyst etc.) so call me an old fuddy duddy!

 

And, if you use older versions of emulators on an older machine such as a P4 that nobody cares about and you can usually get for nothing, well you are looking at a pretty nice emulation setup. I have such a setup along with an X-Arcade controller and it's pretty great. A build of FastMame v0.99 is all you need on an older machine like this and it runs great.

 

Now, ALL of that said, there is a significant difference between the "feel" of emulation and the feel of FPGA "simulation". I don't know if it is slightly more accurate timing (it probably is) but it is hard to put a finger on it. All through those years of using SE I had been fine, but none of it ever felt "exactly" like the actual game consoles. And that was the reason I still maintained real collections and invested into real consoles, everdrives and so on. If emulation were perfect I would definitely had not wasted all of that cash

 

Now, when I first tested FPGA (MiST was the first one I had the opportunity to try) something felt WAY different. Accurate, really accurate. No lag at all. I have experienced some emulators like this (BSNES comes to mind) but really not like this even still. It's not just about the lag free experience I don't think, but again it is very difficult to but a finger on it. It's like if someone were to hide the FPGA box in a cabinet and have me play a game I would not be able to tell you if it were the actual console or some like of emulation/simulation. Its like THAT.

 

This really feels like the consoles, exactly. So much so that I did end up selling my consoles and even my vintage computers. Now the only reason to keep it all of that in reality was for the nostalgia and no longer because I needed the actual hardware to experience the "real deal". Of course some real hardware can do things that is not yet implemented in these FPGA cores, but the cores have just been getting better as time has gone on.

 

So, yeah, there is certainly a difference. One can be free, one costs some money. I use them both.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by eightbit

[Keatah]

This summer I'm gonna be tasked with setting up an emulator rig.

 

The requirements are that it be simple to operate and trouble-free with no muss'n'fuss. It should handle up to around the PS1 era give or take a system. Focus is on 80's arcade games and some MS-DOS, C64, and Atari 2600. Controls should be unified as much as possible. Have HDMI connectivity and no scan converter boxes. Bonus points if it works on their existing PC.

 

This is for the kind of people that use the term "Start Microsoft" to get their PC going.

[Keatah]

18 hours ago, wierd_w said:

Is there a reason they stayed with the cyclone 3, rather than the more capable cyclone 5?

They could have kneecapped mister if they had done the latter..

Completely agree. And it was the first thing I thought of when I heard a new MiST was coming out.

[eightbit]

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

Completely agree. And it was the first thing I thought of when I heard a new MiST was coming out.

 

Yeah, sadly, it just cannot happen. The price of the Cyclone V is actually more than the DE-10 Nano that comes with it onboard

 

Using a Cyclone V would significantly increase the price of the MiST (maybe double?) and for the very few cores that actually require the additional logic elements..just not worth it. 

 

It's not like the V is "faster" than the III in terms of what it is doing in the MiST or the MiSTer, so I think a common misconception is thinking of these FPGA versions like you would traditional CPU's. 

 

And for no fuss no muss, honestly the FPGA systems are the least fuss and muss of anything I can think of. Just drop an .rbf core file on the root of an SD card, run it on the MiST and you are running that game console. Anyone can use this thing...even completely computer illiterate people provided they get some help copying the file to the SD card!

 

 

[eightbit]

I want to add that video connectivity on these (MiST and MiSTer) is not like how it used it be in terms of requiring any scan doublers or whatever.

 

WAY back when I purchased my first MiST and ran the Amiga core, it functioned just like an older (pre-A3000) machine in terms of running the display at 15KHz. I expected that...as it was really simulating an Amiga, right? Well, of course that caused issues where a 15KHz capable display needed to be used or some kind of scandoubler.

 

But, as time went on the firmware and the cores advanced. The MiST now has an integrated scandoubler (that you can turn on or off in the .ini file created on the root of the SD card, default enabled) so you don't have to deal with that anymore. You could disable it if you want (if you really wanted to hook it up to some old display that supports 15KHz) but you don't have to.

 

Just connect the MiST to any VGA display (TV with VGA, or any VGA monitor) and it works. I guess maybe the only ding on the MiST is that it is VGA out instead of HDMI out like the MiSTer uses, but I never had any problem with that. Everything I have still has VGA. My 2 year old 55inch 4K Westinghouse has VGA, my one year old 27 inch Dell display has it too. But, if you want a more classic experience you can also use a good old CRT VGA display. That's the way I prefer it of course, but it looks just as fantastic on the other modern displays as well.

[wierd_w]

'More capable' in terms of synthesizable circuit space, not speed.

 

It's not just the cpu that needs implemented with HDL, it's also all the bespoke stuff, like Agnus and pals on an Amiga, or the MMU and pals on classic macs.

[eightbit]

1 hour ago, wierd_w said:

'More capable' in terms of synthesizable circuit space, not speed.

 

It's not just the cpu that needs implemented with HDL, it's also all the bespoke stuff, like Agnus and pals on an Amiga, or the MMU and pals on classic macs.

 

Indeed. The Amiga and ST cores are so mature. It's extremely amazing. I actually run my actual Amiga and ST backed up HDD images in those cores and they work as you would expect. I haven't found a showstopper in any of the thousands of games and applications I had run on my real Amiga 500 and 2000, or my real 1040STe. Looks the same, works the same, feels the same. The Cyclone III has more than enough logic elements to simulate these machines with space to spare.

 

I am sure there's always something needed to be implemented in cores for such complex machines, but I don't know offhand what is left that needs to be added honestly.

 

The Classic Mac core seems to work perfectly as well from my testing. However I will admit it was brief and I really did not give it the workout I did with the Amiga and ST cores. I had been using those cores for years.

Edited January 20, 2023 by eightbit

[Keatah]

On 1/19/2023 at 5:10 PM, Keatah said:

This summer I'm gonna be tasked with setting up an emulator rig.

Suddenly the job became 10x easier. They're interested in those pissy mini-consoles and flashbacks.

[eightbit]

Just now, Keatah said:

Suddenly the job became 10x easier. They're interested in those pissy mini-consoles and flashbacks.

Now those things suck. Cheap ARM based boards in pretty clamshells!

[wierd_w]

7 hours ago, Keatah said:

Suddenly the job became 10x easier. They're interested in those pissy mini-consoles and flashbacks.

If they want a pretty set-top box, Get and recondition (with mrchromebox uefi) a chromeBox.

 

Its about the same thing as a NUC, but much less expensive.

 

Here's one on fleabay for 70$. I7 with 8gb ram. MORE than beefy enough. They could do all the way up to wii/wii-u on that.

 

 

EmulationStation would work fine.

Edited January 21, 2023 by wierd_w

[Keatah]

That box compatible with Windows?

[wierd_w]

After putting the mrchromebox uefi firmware, yes.

 

Out of the box, no.

 

You would need to put it into 'developer mode', then run the firmware installer script from a crosh shell.  After that, it would have coreboot uefi, and be able to run any uefi capable OS. (Windows 10+ included, but may need stuff from coolstar to run properly. Win7 is not truly uefi. Needs a CSM, and coreboot from mrchromebox does not have one.)

 

You would need to open the lid and remove the write protect screw before flashing with the install script.

 

It would basically be a 'fully FOSSed' NUC after that.

 

That particular one is reasonably upgradable even.  Note that it has an NGFF SSD, and SODIMM RAM.

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by wierd_w

[Hwlngmad]

On 1/16/2023 at 3:06 PM, eightbit said:

Not a "Classic Computer" per-se, but I feel this should be added here as it is an FPGA computer that implements a lot of classic computers...so...

 

A few months ago I signed up for my interest in an updated MiST computer. Lotharek at the time was gauging interest in making a new updated run with some significant updates (double the RAM, fixes, etc.) and considering the DE-10 Nano is so pricey and impossible to obtain I figured this can be the time for the MiST again. 

 

I had a v1.4 which I gave to my brother as a birthday gift and I sold one here on AA some time ago and man have I regretted that (not the gift part, love my brother. The selling the second unit part!) and when I went to buy another one to my dismay it was unavailable with no ETA of it coming back. 

 

Now, it is back, and updated. Shipping at the tail end of March. I ordered one and figured I would pass along the good news to others itching for FPGA goodness:

 

https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=45

 

 

That sounds really cool.  My only question would be is how much have the existing cores been updated, have any cores been added, and how easier is it to get a MiST up and running as opposed to a MiSTer?  I am just wondering as I haven't gotten on the FPGA train yet, but have always kept an eye on it from afar.  Thanks!

[eightbit]

3 minutes ago, Hwlngmad said:

That sounds really cool.  My only question would be is how much have the existing cores been updated, have any cores been added, and how easier is it to get a MiST up and running as opposed to a MiSTer?  I am just wondering as I haven't gotten on the FPGA train yet, but have always kept an eye on it from afar.  Thanks!

 

Good questions. First, here is the link to all available MiST compatible cores and their change dates:

 

https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-binaries/tree/master/cores

 

Click on any of those links and you can download the .rbf file and read the accompanying instructions for that particular core. Generally it's simply copy the .rbf file to the root of the SD card and then create a folder for ROMs. Once the core is launched (it will be on the main page when you power on the MiST) you can navigate to the ROM folder you created and launch games, change settings for that core in the OSD, etc.

 

It's just that simple. Copy stuff to an SD card and play games. Nothing really mind boggling about it. 

 

Even if a core is "old" it doesn't mean it is not full featured. Some of these cores have hit perfection some time ago and there may not be anything useful to add. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arnuphis]

I will also second that the Amiga and Atari ST cores on the MiST work GREAT!. Plus it has built in Midi for those musical ST folks. I have had my old unit for years and its rock solid.