What modern goodies would run on a 400?

[zylon]

So, among stuff around here, I have a 400 that works. It's still stock 16k, but fishing for what it'll run, before I put the effort into upgrading it. I'm not intending to go the "shoebox of carts" route. Small place here.  I'm interested in devices like Atarimax, unocart, sio2 stuff, etc. I can do the upgrade to 48k, just determining if it's worth it. Most device info pages list XL/XE, but not the older models.

Edited February 6, 2023 by zylon

[Wrathchild]

 

[zylon]

4 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

 

I should have been more specific, but that's cool to know.  I was mainly asking about modern devices, like Unocart, Atarimax, sio2sd, etc. 

[Wrathchild]

AVGCart is probably the most capable and has many features that will be handy on other A8 machines too.

 

I have an UNOCart and that works fine with my 400 (albeit expanded to 52K). The case form factor maybe better suited to the 400 too.

 

One issue though would be that when running executables from an sd-card, a small bootloader is loaded first and this has a higher chance of conflicting with the memory needed by the game itself. This is often gotten around by using a compressed version of the game that loads away from the bootstrap area and then once loaded decompresses over it.

 

Both AVG and UNO will emulate various cartridge models too and so you'll be able to run many of the common titles that way too. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Wrathchild

[zylon]

6 minutes ago, Wrathchild said:

AVGCart is probably the most capable and has many features that will be handy on other A8 machines too.

 

I have an UNOCart and that works fine with my 400 (albeit expanded to 52K).

 

One issue though would be that when running executables from an sd-card, a small bootloader is loaded first and this has a higher chance of conflicting with the memory needed by the game itself. This is often gotten around by using a compressed version of the game that loads away from the bootstrap area and then once loaded decompresses over it.

Hmm, ok. So, using say, Unocart, and I add the upgrade to 48k, then I don't have the full 48k to run a program from it. That leads to a question of how much would be left open for running? I currently have a MyIdeII that runs on my 600xl 64k, and my XEGS(when it works lol), but doesn't on the 400. I've been dabbling in A8-to-5200 conversions, and been using the 400 for testing. Given the prices for machines these days, it might also be a good spare to run things, vs sourcing another.  

[Wrathchild]

The availability of RAM is not really an issue, I you run say the 16K Defender cartridge then you are occupying the $8000-$BFFF range and so the RAM available to you is only 32K. However many cartridge models, e.g. AtariMax, have the ability to switch themselves out and so expose the RAM underneath.

[zylon]

I can grasp that.  Good stuff to know, as I'm more C= familiar than with the Atari line. I spoke with a vendor for SIO2SD, and he says it should run on 48k 400, but that the SIO on it, is functionally different, in that it wouldn't provide power to the device. Would you know how I can route equivalent power to it, as on my xl? Being that I'd be inside it already, to add the ram upgrade.

Edited February 6, 2023 by zylon

[Rybags]

400 should be fine to power SIO devices - it's 1200XL that's deficient in that regard.

[zylon]

9 minutes ago, Rybags said:

400 should be fine to power SIO devices - it's 1200XL that's deficient in that regard.

Exactly why I ask the questions

[zylon]

I've ordered an sio2sd, and the upgrade board for 48k.  Any good video mods while I'm in there? RF ain't a deal breaker, as this one still works great, at least with the pacman cart it had in it.

[Sinjinhawke]

I used an upgraded 800xl as my primary but I upgraded my 400 to 48k.  It now runs my little SIO2SD adapter, FujiNet works and even a SIDE3 works when I remove it from the case.  Some cart games branded for the XE machines won't work even with 48K though a few that wouldn't work with 16k did work with 48k.

[zylon]

7 hours ago, Sinjinhawke said:

I used an upgraded 800xl as my primary but I upgraded my 400 to 48k.  It now runs my little SIO2SD adapter, FujiNet works and even a SIDE3 works when I remove it from the case.  Some cart games branded for the XE machines won't work even with 48K though a few that wouldn't work with 16k did work with 48k.

I began with 600xl, then moved up to XEGS, and we acquired the 400 at some point, but never really bothered. The XEGS works, but takes forever to change game, and you have to unplug it for 10 minutes, to empty the memory. Takes even longer, if just turned off, lol. I went back to the 600xl, and added the 1064m board to get up to 64k, and it runs most anything. Given the cost of other setups today, it just seems like my best option is to give the 400 a serious chance finally.  Both my TV's still pick up analog ch 3, so I might figure out what's wrong with the XEGS, by the time they fail, lol. I still adore my 64, but glad I wandered into Atari computers, via the 5200. Many of the same old games, actually are just more fun, and play better, on A8. A lot easier to fix too, haha.

I like to teach myself things denied me when younger. I researched and taught myself rifle reloading and brass shaping, for my antique Steyr 1888. I taught myself, using past schooling experience, to convert some Vic20 games over to play properly on C64, and hoping to try the same on A400 to 5200.  I went with the Sdrive Max from voldabone, in UK, relfsnyder's 48k board kit, and brewing academy TKII for my XEGS in time.

Edited February 7, 2023 by zylon

[mimo]

10 hours ago, zylon said:

Any good video mods while I'm in there?

UAV, UGV but especially SCCC from forum member tf_hh 
Or Sophia 2 if you want DVI output which can easily be converted to HDMI, you would need to pick the audio up from somewhere on the motherboard and possibly amplify it though 

[bfollowell]

23 minutes ago, mimo said:

UAV, UGV but especially SCCC from forum member tf_hh 
Or Sophia 2 if you want DVI output which can easily be converted to HDMI, you would need to pick the audio up from somewhere on the motherboard and possibly amplify it though 

Will a regular UAV work with a 400? Even if it will, it's built into the SCCC, so that's a much better option for 400 owners.

 

[mimo]

40 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

Will a regular UAV work with a 400? Even if it will, it's built into the SCCC, so that's a much better option for 400 owners.

 

Yes, but I believe that the audio needs amplifying somehow.

SCCC is by far the best/easiest option at the moment, and great video quality. It's only second to my Sophia 2 600xl 

[+scorpio_ny]

14 hours ago, zylon said:

Any good video mods while I'm in there? RF ain't a deal breaker, as this one still works great, at least with the pacman cart it had in it.

You could also get a 400 CPU and Svideo card that was made by @reifsnyderb. I have one installed in my Atari 400 and it works great! This would also provide audio out as well. There is some soldering involved. I have that and the 1056k memory card he made installed in my 400. Here is the link for the 400 CPU Svideo card.

[zylon]

6 hours ago, scorpio_ny said:

You could also get a 400 CPU and Svideo card that was made by @reifsnyderb. I have one installed in my Atari 400 and it works great! This would also provide audio out as well. There is some soldering involved. I have that and the 1056k memory card he made installed in my 400. Here is the link for the 400 CPU Svideo card.

Cool. I was actually looking at his option for video on my 600xl, just couple weeks ago. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I haven't seen S-video sockets on a TV in ages. I might need a plainer explanation to catch up. I've just got the yellow and white sockets on mine, with an additional red on on the main room tv. The red/blue/green section has my 360 on it for now. I've done the LHE and 8bit domain mods on 2600's in past, so I've some experience there. I hate 4sw 2600's, lol.

I saved that linky. Thanks

Edited February 7, 2023 by zylon

[reifsnyderb]

There are converters from S-Video to composite TV.

 

All I can figure is that TV companies must be saving a ton of money by omitting that extra S-Video connection.   😕

 

[+mytek]

2 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

All I can figure is that TV companies must be saving a ton of money by omitting that extra S-Video connection.   😕

Yeah pretty stupid decision to omit it if you ask me. Funny thing is at one point they had designed a chip set that included it, so the R&D was already done and behind them.

[zylon]

10 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

There are converters from S-Video to composite TV.

 

All I can figure is that TV companies must be saving a ton of money by omitting that extra S-Video connection.   😕

 

last thing I saw that even looked like that, was Sega cables for Saturn, and Genesis. So, I'd have an converter, into a converter, into a descaler, lol. Now, an adaptor/mod using those already existing, easily found cables, that's a win. 

My c64 cable is a Genesis/SMS one, that I cut in half, and just played with connections, until it worked, lol. Silly, but effective.

Edited February 7, 2023 by zylon

[zylon]

apparently, I have a VGA port on the main TV too. It points straight down, out of my sight. Good place for that...🙄

[+scorpio_ny]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

Yeah pretty stupid decision to omit it if you ask me. Funny thing is at one point they had designed a chip set that included it, so the R&D was already done and behind them.

Very true! It means that the the end user has to invest more to get better quality picture for devices that do not use HDMI. In my case, I decided to gear around that fact. I use a Retrotink 2X upscaler that connects to HDMI. Most of my retro systems either either use SVideo or component video in order to produce the best picture possible. Only exception are a couple of 8 bit computers that a mod installed to connect directly to HDMI. Sadly, the chip shortage had put a halt to these projects.

Edited February 8, 2023 by scorpio_ny
Fix paragraph

[reifsnyderb]

What irritates me is that HDMI has licensing involved.  So, everyone is being forced in that direction.   😞

 

[zylon]

1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said:

What irritates me is that HDMI has licensing involved.  So, everyone is being forced in that direction.   😞

 

everyone has different wants, or interests from it. In all the years that S-video was on TV's, that I remember, no one I knew, ever used it even once. We didn't even use the composite, until maybe Saturn or Dreamcast, assuming we had it on anything. I didn't own a TV that had even that, until maybe late 90s. Both my current TV's are likely the cheapest ones of their day. In the old stuff room, that one's a crt with rf and mono video input, but actually has digital and analog tuners. My main room TV is the cheapest one Wally world sold in 2015. It has both tuners, composite/component, vga, and a hdmi. I have my descaler on there for when my xegs was on it, and testing things. I only run single load stuff mostly, on the old computers, and none of that is graphically amazing. My only interest in such, is for when I can't just tune to ol' #3 and go. Best perks of the 400 for me, I already have it, and my parrot can't remove keycaps, lol. She thinks buttons are of the devil, and tries to save me from them.

Licensing is everything. Look back at the HD dvd wars, or even Beta/VHS. Today, everyone I know, has their phone hooked up to the tv, watching from that. Most watch actual programming or movies, I never do. Those folks vastly outnumber those like myself, so who would they cater to? I don't even own an actual modern computer, just a chromebook thingy. No phone either, other than company provided one. So, current video boards I see, are taking a 40yr old device, up to 30yr old video few used then. Kinda sucks today, but I can understand it.

[_The Doctor__]

s-video, got used on the Atari with any TV that had it, our SVHS, Laser Disk player, Jaguar, CD+G player you name it. I couldn't imagine not having an S VHS or LCA monitor or television except the higher quality NEC or similar composite monitors that worked magic with the Signals, each step of the way the best video path I could manage was used. Early televisions and monitors had BNC connectors or weird Camcorder connections. Always made up cables to handle it. Even when a TV only had COAX in the best quad shielded cable with F connectors or coaxial switch box would be employed. Twin lead tv's got the shielded coax, taroid coil with shielded wires including the balun. All devices, cables and wires would get a termination cap or resistor if not being used provided it wouldn't trip a smart switch etc.

Edited February 8, 2023 by _The Doctor__