Finally got an Atari 7800! Is there a chart/comparison/FAQ of available flash cart options?

[RockLobster]

I see the 7800GD and Concerto being chatted about most recently.  Are these the only two available?

 

Also, where else can I read about POKEY and memory banking/switching limitations?

 

Thanks.

[mimo]

Technically Concerto is the only one available right now.

Hopefully GD will be soon 

[+groundtrooper]

There is also the BackBit Pro. It's a multicart that you just exchange modules for whatever console you want to use it with. It currently has modules for;

Acetronic MPU-1000/2000, Amstrad CPC+/GX4000, Apple II+/IIe, Atari 2600, Atari 5200, Atari 7800, Atari 400/800/XL/XE, Bally Astrocade, ColecoVision/Adam, Commodore 64/128, Commodore +4/C16, Commodore VIC 20, Emerson Arcadia 2001 (& MPT-03 Clone), Epoch Super Cassette Vision, Fairchild Channel F, IBM PCjr, Interton VC 4000, Mattel Aquarius, Mattel Intellivision, Magnavox Odyssey² (and Philips Videopac), MSX 1/2, Radofin Advanced Programmable Video System 1292/1392, RCA Studio II/III, Tandy Color Computer/2/3, TI‑99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000/1500/2068, Vectrex (GCE/Milton Bradley), ZX81, ZX Spectrum, …and more!

 

It's a pretty amazing little project. 

[RockLobster]

1 hour ago, mimo said:

Technically Concerto is the only one available right now.

What about the Dragonfly?

[+Muddyfunster]

I've put together a quick FAQ matrix (click to embiggen). If anyone notices anything inaccurate or anything missing that should be added, let me know and I'll update :

 

1. Add Own: Concerto has a socket to add your own POKEY or POKEY compatible sound chip (like HOKEY)
2. Add Own: Dragonfly has a socket to add your own POKEY or POKEY compatible (like HOKEY) or advanced POKEY solution like POKEYMAX, allowing POKEY, Dual POKEY, YM and Covox sound
3. Concerto + CEM#1 comes with an integrated HOKEY (POKEY compatible) sound chip.
4. Dragonfly uses an LCD screen on cart, similar to a GoTek drive.
5. 7800GD allows "break to menu" when using the MEGA7800 and compatible Megadrive/Genesis pad or from the 7800 pad (button & direction combination).
6. BackBit has a break to menu button but needs an additional wire to work reliably.

 

Other comments :

 

• Max ROM Size: Retail (BiTD) ROMs topped out at 144K. Homebrews do go beyond 144K.
• Bankset ROMS: Banksets is a new ROM mapper format for Homebrew with new releases starting to take advantage of it.
• POKEY Support: All solutions noted will support POKEY however only GD7800 & Backbit have it "built in", the others require an "addon" such as a real POKEY chip or compatible solution.
• YM Sound: Notes whether the solution supports YM sound output.
• COVOX Sound: Notes whether the solution supports Covox sound output.
• HSC emulation: Notes whether the solution supports High Score Cart (HSC) type saving "on cart" without extra hardware.
• RGB Video out: Currently 7800GD is the only solution with enhanced Video out to RGB.
• On Screen Menu: Notes whether the solution has an "on screen menu" for selecting ROMs to run.
• Runs 2600 ROMS: Notes whether the device runs Atari 2600 games on the 7800 in 2600 mode.
• Runs ARM assisted 2600 ROMS: Notes whether the device runs Atari 2600 ROMS which are ARM assisted (like Tyre Trax, Mappy etc) in 2600 mode.

 

Current availability :

• Backbit: Yes
• Concerto: Yes
• Concerto CEM#0: Available soon.
• Concerto CEM#1: Available soon.
• Cuttle Cart: Not currently available (Legacy device)
• Dragonfly: Not currently available
• 7800GD: Yes

 

Updated to 1.3 to add CC2 legacy device

Updated to 1.4 to add Concerto CEM's, BUP sound category and 2600 ARM category.

Updated to 1.5 to show 7800GD as available

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Muddyfunster
updated to 1.5

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Backbit is compatible with 2600 roms in 2600 mode. Also I'm pretty sure the BBPro supports up to 1Mb as well but with some limitations I believe. Also the BBPro does have a button on the top to reset back to menu but does require the use of an extra wire to attach to the adapter to make it work reliably. Otherwise, it is a power off/on cycle to get back to the game menu selection.

 

[+Muddyfunster]

2 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Backbit is compatible with 2600 roms in 2600 mode. Also I'm pretty sure the BBPro supports up to 1Mb as well but with some limitations I believe. Also the BBPro does have a button on the top to reset back to menu but does require the use of an extra wire to attach to the adapter to make it work reliably. Otherwise, it is a power off/on cycle to get back to the game menu selection.

 

Thanks, updated the Backbit.

 

I've not changed the ROM size supported until that can be corroborated. I've searched but couldn't find anything definitive. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

5 minutes ago, Muddyfunster said:

Thanks, updated the Backbit.

 

I've not changed the ROM size supported until that can be corroborated. I've searched but couldn't find anything definitive. 

Here is the cut and paste regarding the 7800 adapter info from her BBPro users PDF that is in her download section.

 

Atari7800:-

-A78(upto1MB)

-Mapperssupported:Absolute,Activision,MirrorRAM,SuperGame, SuperGame+RAM

 

Doesn't mention the 2600 stuff but I believe it supports all of the features that her standalone 2600 adapter has but from the 7800 adapter of course when switching the console to 2600 mode.

 

[+Mitch]

If you are including discontinued Flashcarts then you are missing the CC2.

 

Also, retail ROMs went up to 144K not 128K.

 

I didn't notice anything else.

 

Mitch

[+Muddyfunster]

20 minutes ago, Mitch said:

If you are including discontinued Flashcarts then you are missing the CC2.

 

Also, retail ROMs went up to 144K not 128K.

 

I didn't notice anything else.

 

Mitch

Thanks Mitch,

 

I don't know anything about the CC2 so I wasn't comfortable adding it in. If anyone wants to fill me in, I'll be happy to add it. 

 

Noted on Retail ROMS & updated, cheers  

[+groundtrooper]

I don't want to add to the can of worm for discontinued 7800 Carts, but there is also the Mateos Cart, but his site is totally gone now, @-^CrossBow^- has a video on his YT Channel and there are a couple of other YT videos that you might be able to get info from, but since it is LONG discontinued and I think Mateos had some heath problems and just dropped off of the internet. 

[+Mitch]

5 hours ago, Muddyfunster said:

I don't know anything about the CC2 so I wasn't comfortable adding it in. If anyone wants to fill me in, I'll be happy to add it. 

 

Lets see.

 

Max ROM size - 512K

Bankset - No

Pokey - Add own

YM - No

Covox - No

HSC - Yes

Break back to menu - No

RGB out - No

On screen menu - Yes

2600 on 7800 in 2600 mode - Yes

Dev port - Yes

 

Mitch

[John Stamos Mullet]

This man does not know the struggle.

[+Muddyfunster]

8 hours ago, Mitch said:

Lets see.

 

Max ROM size - 512K

Bankset - No

Pokey - Add own

YM - No

Covox - No

HSC - Yes

Break back to menu - No

RGB out - No

On screen menu - Yes

2600 on 7800 in 2600 mode - Yes

Dev port - Yes

 

Mitch

Thanks Mitch, updated.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

16 hours ago, groundtrooper said:

I don't want to add to the can of worm for discontinued 7800 Carts, but there is also the Mateos Cart, but his site is totally gone now, @-^CrossBow^- has a video on his YT Channel and there are a couple of other YT videos that you might be able to get info from, but since it is LONG discontinued and I think Mateos had some heath problems and just dropped off of the internet. 

The Mateos 16 in 1 cart operates in one of two modes. If you you set it to 128k mode, then it can store up to 16 games at once that you select using a rotary switch on the cartridge. If you set it to 144k mode as I always do, then it can only store up to 8 games. Used an adapter and cable via USB to copy the actual .BIN roms to it as it didn't use the .A78 extension and required you to rename the .bin extension to something else that matched the cartridge and bankswitching type that game used.

 

But as has been stated, those haven't been available for years and the creator seems to have gotten out of the hobby. Now that I know the page is no longer active, that will be an issue as the tools needed to convert the .A78 files used an online application that did the conversion for you from his website. So it would now require manual editing of the rom files to remove the header information from them and then rename the extensions. I think his website also had an application specific for Vectrex use so that is too bad to hear his site isn't active anymore.

 

[gambler172]

And there was Mattheos Multicart, which was not perfect, but a cheap solution.

[Trebor]

On 4/27/2023 at 3:09 PM, Muddyfunster said:

I've put together a quick FAQ matrix (click to embiggen). If anyone notices anything inaccurate or anything missing that should be added, let me know and I'll update :

 

1. Add Own : Concerto has a socket to add your own POKEY or POKEY compatible sound chip (like HOKEY)
2. Add Own : Dragonfly has a socket to add your own POKEY or POKEY compatible (like HOKEY) or advanced POKEY solution like POKEYMAX, allowing POKEY, Dual POKEY, YM and Covox sound
3. BackBit max rom size is believed to be 128K but I don't have clear information.
4. Dragonfly uses an LCD screen on cart, similar to a GoTek drive.
5. GD7800 allows "break to menu" when using the MEGA7800 and compatible Megadrive/Genesis pad or from the 7800 pad (button & direction combination).
6. BackBit has a break to menu button but needs an additional wire to work reliably.

 

Other comments :

 

• Max ROM Size : Retail (BiTD) ROMs topped out at 144K. Homebrews do go beyond 144K.
• Bankset ROMS : Banksets is a new ROM mapper format for Homebrew with new releases starting to take advantage of it.
• POKEY Support : All solutions noted will support POKEY however only GD7800 & Backbit have it "built in", the others require an "addon" such as a real POKEY chip or compatible solution.
• YM Sound : Notes whether the solution supports YM sound output.
• COVOX Sound : Notes whether the solution supports Covox sound output.
• HSC emulation : Notes whether the solution supports High Score Cart (HSC) type saving "on cart" without extra hardware.
• RGB Video out : Currently GD7800 is the only solution with enhanced Video out to RGB.
• On Screen Menu : Notes whether the solution has an "on screen menu" for selecting ROMs to run.

 

Current availability :

• Backbit : Yes
• Concerto : Yes
• Cuttle Cart : Not currently available (Legacy device)
• Dragonfly : Not currently available
• GD7800 : Available soon.

 

Updated to 1.3 to add CC2 legacy device

 

Several new footnotes, or perhaps another entry (I.E. Concerto + CEM #1) will be needed for the recent updates announced for the Concerto.

 

Modified Category answers regarding Concerto:
1. MAX ROM size supported = >1MB (520k+544k=1064k), when utilized with Concerto Enhancement Module #1.
2. Bankset ROMS supported? = Yes, with Concerto Enhancement Module #1.
3. HSC emulation included = Yes, when utilized with Concerto Enhancement Module #0 or #1.

 

Also, respecting the category "Runs 2600 Roms on the 7800 in 2600 mode", it may be advantageous to mention most of the ones that currently have "Yes" do not support ROMs requiring ARM processor (I.E. CDF, CDFJ bankswitching), in which several of the relatively newer 2600 homebrews do require it.  Concerto does support ARM leveraging titles.

 

As CEM #1 contains a HOKEY, with the primary purpose to substitute for POKEY, it could also tackle YM2151, COVOX, even BupChip*.  AFAIK though, the programming of HOKEY for those additional targets has not taken place (publicly) yet.

 

The plan is for the Concerto with Concerto Enhancement Module #2 to be able to run all 2600 and 7800 ROMs. However, IMHO, Concerto Enhancement Module #2 distinction(s) should perhaps be excluded until finalized.

 

*Perhaps add as a category "BupChip sound supported".  Regarding BupChip sound, the only flash device that supports it is 7800GD.

[Trebor]

On 4/27/2023 at 6:17 PM, groundtrooper said:

I don't want to add to the can of worm for discontinued 7800 Carts, but there is also the Mateos Cart, but his site is totally gone now, @-^CrossBow^- has a video on his YT Channel and there are a couple of other YT videos that you might be able to get info from, but since it is LONG discontinued and I think Mateos had some heath problems and just dropped off of the internet. 

On 4/28/2023 at 11:21 AM, -^CrossBow^- said:

The Mateos 16 in 1 cart operates in one of two modes. If you you set it to 128k mode, then it can store up to 16 games at once that you select using a rotary switch on the cartridge. If you set it to 144k mode as I always do, then it can only store up to 8 games. Used an adapter and cable via USB to copy the actual .BIN roms to it as it didn't use the .A78 extension and required you to rename the .bin extension to something else that matched the cartridge and bankswitching type that game used.

 

But as has been stated, those haven't been available for years and the creator seems to have gotten out of the hobby. Now that I know the page is no longer active, that will be an issue as the tools needed to convert the .A78 files used an online application that did the conversion for you from his website. So it would now require manual editing of the rom files to remove the header information from them and then rename the extensions. I think his website also had an application specific for Vectrex use so that is too bad to hear his site isn't active anymore.

This site still works for me: http://www.vectrex.hackermesh.org/a7800converter/

 

Should that fail someday, it has been archived.

[+Muddyfunster]

Thanks @Trebor 👍,

 

Thanks for the input and extra details. I agree that some updates would be good and I think new standalone entries for Concerto + CEM # make sense, to differentiate them from the base Concerto. I think the BUP category is a good addition too as well as the ARM 2600 games distinction.

 

However I think regarding Concerto, I will limit the updates to CEM#0 and CEM#1 as these seem to be available according to Fred's post, or they will be shortly.

1 hour ago, Trebor said:

The plan is for the Concerto with Concerto Enhancement Module #2 to be able to run all 2600 and 7800 ROMs. However, IMHO, Concerto Enhancement Module #2 distinction(s) should perhaps be excluded until finalized.

 

Agreed. CEM#2 still seems to be in the design phase for now and features will likely be subject to change so I'll exclude that from the table for now.

 

 

[Trebor]

One minor item, for the Game Drive flash device, it has the GD after the 7800.  GD7800 should be 7800GD.

[+Muddyfunster]

1 hour ago, Trebor said:

. MAX ROM size supported = >1MB (520k+544k=1064k), when utilized with Concerto Enhancement Module #1.

I'm not sure that the two capacities combine.

 

It seems the total is 1064k or at least >1mb but I'd like Fred to confirm if a 1mb ROM would then be runnable from a Concerto + CEM#1. I think CEM#1 (and it's capacity) runs separately but I might be wrong.

 

Right now Concerto has 512k but cannot run ROMs greater than 128K. That might be a firmware limitation but it's currently where the device is at. CEM#1 has a capacity of 544k.

 

I want the table to reflect "current" not "theoretically possible".

 

I'll ask that question in the other thread for clarification and let Fred confirm as appropriate.

[Trebor]

On 4/27/2023 at 12:34 PM, RockLobster said:

Also, where else can I read about POKEY...

Chapter 5, Chapter 14, and Appendix E of the Altirra Hardware Reference Manual.

 

There is also Atari's internal POKEY C012294 Documentation.

 

The POKEY Note Table is another great reference.

On 4/27/2023 at 12:34 PM, RockLobster said:

...and memory banking/switching limitations?

For the original retail line, there is Eckhard Stolberg's Atari 7800 Bankswitching Guide.

 

In addition to the above, for homebrews the newer Bankset Bankswitching method is available and utilized in the excellent Attack of the PETSCII Robots game.

 

For a wealth of information covering the 7800 overall, see 8BitDev.org - Atari 7800 Development Wiki.

[Trebor]

55 minutes ago, Muddyfunster said:

I'm not sure that the two capacities combine.

 

It seems the total is 1064k or at least >1mb but I'd like Fred to confirm if a 1mb ROM would then be runnable from a Concerto + CEM#1. I think CEM#1 (and it's capacity) runs separately but I might be wrong.

 

Right now Concerto has 512k but cannot run ROMs greater than 128K. That might be a firmware limitation but it's currently where the device is at. CEM#1 has a capacity of 544k.

 

I want the table to reflect "current" not "theoretically possible".

 

I'll ask that question in the other thread for clarification and let Fred confirm as appropriate.

Absolutely, it is best to confirm with Fred.

 

I was going by the statement from the OP in this thread:

Quote

The Concerto has a total of 520k of RAM, 32k of parallel flash and 2MB of serial flash. Currently games up to 144k are supported, and work is being done to support the larger games.

And a recent statement, here:

Quote

CEM #1 provides 544k of additional memory to your device, bringing the total to over 1M, which allows games like EXO to play. It also provides extra hardware support to play games such as PETSCII Robots, and improves game support with the current library of games.

 

[gambler172]

On 4/28/2023 at 4:06 AM, Mitch said:

Lets see.

 

Max ROM size - 512K

Bankset - No

Pokey - Add own

YM - No

Covox - No

HSC - Yes

Break back to menu - No

RGB out - No

On screen menu - Yes

2600 on 7800 in 2600 mode - Yes

Dev port - Yes

 

Mitch

and you could add MANUALS 😉

[+batari]

I saw the matrix and I found some incorrect parts. 
 

The Concerto with CEM has break to menu functionality. Also all concertos have a dev port (USB micro) that can be used for uploading games. Currently you can only upload 2600 games over USB but that will likely change in the future. 
 

YM support is planned. And as for COVOX, I could easily add that, and it’s useful on other platforms like Atari 8-bit computers, but I feel it’s not a particularly useful feature on the 7800 due to DMA and I don’t want to encourage its use when superior options will be available for cartridge boards. I personally would deprecate it as a 7800 cart feature if it were up to me. HOKEY will instead support buffered ADPCM which is far better for 7800 games. And specs will be available so others can support the way cartridge boards with HOKEY will handle ADPCM (which is different than other proposals out there.)