Creating a new Omega Race CX40 fire button attachment (already done? any interest in this? Thinking homebrews)

[8bitwidgets.com]

Hi everyone, so I just ordered a couple of used Omega Race attachments to experiment with, but much like the couplers I make for the 2600 and others..  I got to thinking that homebrewers relying on the user base to have an Omega Race style fire button to use CX40 controllers might stifle innovation for new game ideas..  

 

I've kinda been of a mindset "if you build it they will compile it.." mindset trying to offer affordable / readily available accessories to allow homebrewers to make new games that might be even more interesting / fun if they could go beyond the basic controllers and not rely on rare / expensive / niche items that would discourage the path forward to new experiences on this beloved hardware.  

 

 

(blue sky warning)

One such idea was making some kind of "Discs of Tron" game that would use a coupler that has a CX40 + one Paddle to play some kind of port / inspiration of it.  However this got me thinking about the fact that a coupler would make the fire button difficult to use..   hence the new omega race attachment..  however this could do things too for that hacked version of battlezone.. and i'm sure there are others not yet thought of.  

 

So yea I'm looking to make something like this..  but maybe this has been done before and it was a flop..   i've not been hip to the 2600 homebrew scene till really the last couple years and even then strictly as a gamer of original roms, no homebrews till recently.. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Caleb Garner

[MrTrust]

I love the DoT idea.  The paddles really don't get utilized enough.  I've been thinking about ways to combine paddle(s) and joystick myself.  I would especially like to see some kind of paddle coupler, so we can get some dual paddle games.

 

I've been toying with the idea of a game based on King Solomon's Mines, and having certain scenes where you are crossing hazardous terrain where you steer the character with the joystick, but have to balance him with the paddle.  Another idea is to have a maze game where the character is being pursued by invisible enemies.  Again, steer the character with the joystick, but you must dial in a "scanner" reticle with the two paddles controlling the x and y to unmask the enemies.  Or, have a Berzerk style game with a weapon that you have to aim using the paddles, so you have no choice but to take your hand off the joystick and switch to the paddles if you want to take a shot, leaving your character immobile while you do it.  Be a neat way to cover the limited sprite capabilities of the system by making fewer enemies more daunting.

 

Definitely would be interesting to see new kinds of control schemes opened up on the system.

[pumaconcolor]

I bought this controller recently and it supports Omega Race out of the box:

https://dragonbox.de/en/wireless-controllers/commotron-gamepad-turbo-2000-super.html

 

Also I've enjoyed using this controller:

https://retrogameboyz.com/products/atari-2600-omega-race-controller

[8bitwidgets.com]

34 minutes ago, pumaconcolor said:

supports Omega Race out of the box

Yea that's cool it offers some more buttons.  i'm looking for something that would build on existing hardware.  Something to extend what's out there.  The battlezone hacked version that supports dual joysticks.  It's not just about having more buttons but finding ways of arranging existing hardware in new ways, but still D-Pads are nice options for a lot of games.  I have the long play Cote Games Intellivision controller which was a great effort to give intellivision owners a means to play any intellivision game in D-Pad form.  

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Caleb Garner

[8bitwidgets.com]

 

6 hours ago, MrTrust said:

I love the DoT idea.  The paddles really don't get utilized enough. 

I agree and I like to think this would offer more than just a one trick pony configuration.  Although a DoT game would probably be one of the best one trick pony games out there if it could be achieved   I made the Spy Hunter Coupler which is about as one trick as it gets, but it was still worth it.  

 

6 hours ago, MrTrust said:

I would especially like to see some kind of paddle coupler, so we can get some dual paddle games.

What game(s) could be utilized with this setup?  I'd be up for making a solution for this for sure..   my other short list item is a Star Raiders Coupler as well for a CX40 and keypad.  

 

6 hours ago, MrTrust said:

Or, have a Berzerk style game with a weapon that you have to aim using the paddles

Yea I think having a combination of Omega Fire Button, CX40 and Dial could open up a slew of game possibilities.  Though even if there was no fire button the two inputs could be awesome.  

[MrTrust]

8 hours ago, Caleb Garner said:

What game(s) could be utilized with this setup?  I'd be up for making a solution for this for sure..   my other short list item is a Star Raiders Coupler as well for a CX40 and keypad.

 

Well, the most obvious would be some kind of variation on the old marble game, Labyrinth.  If I'm not mistaken, someone has even done this already, but I can't remember who it was or what it was called.

 

I've long been thinking about a video game based on this:

 

 

Imagine that, rather than being hinged in the middle, there were to independent sets of platforms to manipulate, or using one paddle to shift the platforms on the x axis, and the other to change the angle.  Perhaps you have a Mr. Magoo-type character who just wanders blindly through a construction site, and you have to manipulate these girders to keep him from falling off.

 

There are many different riffs you could do on the old-school paddle game.  Imagine a continual ascent game like Amoeba Jump, but you have two sets of bumpers, one which points up (left paddle), and one which points down (right paddle).  You can tread water and make tiny gains with just the upward-facing ones, but to get real momentum, you have to bounce the character up, then down, then back up again in succession.  Or, imagine a head-to-head Warlords-style game.  Two wizards are deflecting a fireball back and forth, and each has a red and a blue wand.  The ball intermittently changes color, and you have to hit it with the same-colored wand.  Or, an arkanoid variant where hitting the ball with one paddle or the other changes it's color, and certain targets can only be hit with the right color.  Maybe a cross between Anteater and Operation, where you have to steer through this maze without touching the walls. You could think of different riffs and variations all day.

 

If there are a way to implement triggers with two paddles, say, something that lets you hit the button with your ring and pinky fingers while turning the dial with your remaining digits, then you have all kinds of different things you could do.  Perhaps a Battlebots-inspired game where you change your facing with one paddle, but you have a swivel-mounted claw on the robot than you can use to grab things and throw them, or remove obstacles (and place them in from of your opponent), or a Roadblasters or Spy Hunter riff, but with a turreted weapon that you control independently.  

 

9 hours ago, Caleb Garner said:

Yea I think having a combination of Omega Fire Button, CX40 and Dial could open up a slew of game possibilities.  Though even if there was no fire button the two inputs could be awesome.

 

It is really surprising given all the different developments on Atari systems, that this really hasn't come up.  Can the 7800 read paddles easily like the 2600 and 8-bits?  Because if so, that's a whole other set of possibilities.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

Well, the most obvious would be some kind of variation on the old marble game, Labyrinth.  If I'm not mistaken, someone has even done this already, but I can't remember who it was or what it was called.

Sounds like you're thinking of Marble Craze.

 

A paddle/joystick coupler just screams Mad Planets port to me, but it would also require a controller with a fire button on the stick.

[MrTrust]

3 hours ago, KaeruYojimbo said:

Sounds like you're thinking of Marble Craze.

 

I'm not sure if this is the one or not, but it does look very nice.  The one that I'm seeing in my mind's eye might have been an A8 game.  Either way, there you go; we've got at least one use case.

 

3 hours ago, KaeruYojimbo said:

A paddle/joystick coupler just screams Mad Planets port to me, but it would also require a controller with a fire button on the stick.

 

Well, that's why he's talking about re-creating the Omega Race thing, but surely there's a way to 3D print a slip-on trigger that allows you to press the base button on the CX-40 from up top the stick.

[8bitwidgets.com]

On 6/10/2023 at 9:26 AM, MrTrust said:

Well, the most obvious would be some kind of variation on the old marble game, Labyrinth. 

Ah i get what you mean now.. right right..  well I have the standard paddles so I could definitely get to creating something like that this week.  I just finished a batch of Coleco cartridge cases for Cote that I should be shipping out tomorrow morning so i can get back to prototyping some stuff.  

 

Imagine a kind of etch-a-sketch game too where you're targeting items on the screen using the X-Y positions of a targeting device..  maybe a kind of missile command variant..  any number of games where you're moving your crosshair..  

 

Anyway yea I can see now this cold definitely open up a ton of game ideas.  

 

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:26 AM, MrTrust said:

I've long been thinking about a video game based on this:

this makes me think of something like the Wii Balance board games

 

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:26 AM, MrTrust said:

something that lets you hit the button with your ring and pinky fingers

hmm.. yea maybe there could be some way to have some kind of raised button that's next to the paddle knobs that when you press it down it has a kind of 45 degree wedge that then pushes the fire button of one of (or both) of the paddles in.. I'll see how feasible that could be..  

 

On 6/10/2023 at 9:26 AM, MrTrust said:

Can the 7800 read paddles easily like the 2600 and 8-bits?

I don't know the 7800 that well.  I've never heard of anyone using the 7800 with paddle games, but given it's selling point was backwards compatibility with both games and controllers, it would seam possible, but companies are also notorious for making systems that say backwards compatible EXCEPT.. 

 

[8bitwidgets.com]

If anyone has 2600 game chops and wants to partner up on some game idea, PM me.  I'd be happy to collaborate and come up with the controller first of course.  I'm happy to build it first so devs can feel / use it for themselves and if they want to do more with it great and if not, it's still a thing for anyone else to experiment with.  I'd like to get into homebrewing myself, but I'm kinda on this peripheral path for a bit till I feel like I've "achievement unlocked" it.   feels like i'm kinda 76 of 100 points with it before I can shift my focus..  but even then my current homebrew goals are making things for the Intellivision and if I move over to straight assembly, start with the Odyssey 2.. and maybe at some point i'll feel smart enough to try my hand at the 2600..  

 

This was my setup at the Boston area RetroMania Con.  It was the first one this guy had done.  Humble effort, but the turnout was solid and I think everyone would agree it was a success.  

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Caleb Garner

[MrTrust]

24 minutes ago, Caleb Garner said:

Imagine a kind of etch-a-sketch game too where you're targeting items on the screen using the X-Y positions of a targeting device..  maybe a kind of missile command variant..  any number of games where you're moving your crosshair.. 

 

Yes, exactly.  You could really open-up co-op possibilities with this.  I see a ghost-themed game, where one player is controlling a guy running around the house, but the other controls the "ghost lens", which reveals and/or stuns the ghosts, or reveals hidden items around the house, or you can shield the other player.  Something in the spirit of crossbow, only someone controls the on-screen characters.

 

Another possibility: a maze game where you etch-a-sketch target particular sections of the maze to select, then you can shift and rotate with the dials.  Imagining a character being stuck in a maze with some kind of monster; one player lures and gets chased by the monster, while the other manipulates the maze in such a way as to clear the way for the player and/or trap the monster.

 

30 minutes ago, Caleb Garner said:

this makes me think of something like the Wii Balance board games

 

Wow, I've never seen that before, but there you have it.  I like the idea of that with a continuous downward scroll.

 

16 minutes ago, Caleb Garner said:

If anyone has 2600 game chops and wants to partner up on some game idea, PM me.

 

I don't, but bB is pretty easy to get a game written quickly.  I've been thinking a bit more about doing something on the A8 systems.  I can write ASM like a 2nd grader writes English, but not having to deal with all the TIA weirdness would make things much much easier.

 

I'm going to keep trying to flesh out a few of these ideas and see if I can get at least a proof-of-concept or two going.  I've been meaning to write a game this summer, but most of the ideas I've had are too ambitious to do in a couple of months.  A more tech demo-y thing might be a more realistic goal at the moment.

[8bitwidgets.com]

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

but the other controls the "ghost lens"

so you're talking two player games?  I'm referring more to a coupler like this picture below which is one of the items I currently make, only i'd make something like this for the paddles so a single player could comfortably manipulate both paddles in a single player game.  If it's co-op then the coupler isn't needed since each player is holding one of the two paddles.  Not saying the idea wouldn't be fun, just wouldn't require any coupling..  

 

 

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

while the other manipulates the maze

Again another co-op game idea?  Yea definitely could be interesting, just no new peripherals or attachments needed and nothing wrong with that

 

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

I like the idea of that with a continuous downward scroll.

Yea definitely could be potential there.  I think the physics of something like this would be manageable Mostly just managing the speed / acceleration / deceleration based on a set number of platform angles.  Nothing like bouncing or anything like that.  

 

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

I'm going to keep trying to flesh out a few of these ideas and see if I can get at least a proof-of-concept or two going. 

Cool sounds like you're well ahead of me    I should be able to get these prototyped and demoed pretty quickly.  I think my printers will be pretty open this week and I should have some time to measure / build them.  

Edited June 11, 2023 by Caleb Garner

[+fdr4prez]

2 hours ago, MrTrust said:

I see a ghost-themed game

 

 

But for 2600, it may end up like this version:

 

 

 

[MrTrust]

2 hours ago, Caleb Garner said:

so you're talking two player games?  I'm referring more to a coupler like this picture below which is one of the items I currently make, only i'd make something like this for the paddles so a single player could comfortably manipulate both paddles in a single player game.

 

One player uses a joystick, and the other player uses the coupled paddles is what I'm talking about.

[8bitwidgets.com]

4 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

and the other player uses the coupled paddles

Ah i see.  Yea that could be interesting.  could also make a game have a couple of modes.. single player experience that focuses on each game mechanic and then one that combines them with two players..   tough to find people to play games with i imagine..  i know this is probably a completely off base generalization, but i get the feeling most of us who are into this don't have a lot of people to play 2p games in person all that often.  I know don't!   

 

Some great intellivision 2p games I never get to play because they require two human players.   

[+DrVenkman]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:58 AM, Caleb Garner said:

I've never heard of anyone using the 7800 with paddle games

Bob D.’s SUPER CIRCUS ATARIAGE uses paddles - it’s great fun. So, too, do any number of 2600 games when played through the 7800. Paddles are read by the paddle lines to TIA pins 37 - 40, IIRC. And of course, the 7800 has a TIA for 2600 compatibility so of course it reads paddles the same way.

[8bitwidgets.com]

28 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Bob D.’s SUPER CIRCUS ATARIAGE uses paddles - it’s great fun.

Awesome, so it's good to know that hardware can work with it as well.  Excellent. 

[8bitwidgets.com]

while this isn't directly related to the omega race button, this is phase one of two..  

this also will lead to the additional dual paddle coupler..   likely these will become available at the same time..  except.. 

 

the only hiccup right now is that I have the gemini paddles, not the original 2600 ones.  i'm working on getting a pair of those to insure the fit is good for both or i'll have to make two variations potentially.  

 

[8bitwidgets.com]

@MrTrust progress!

 

 

Still going to take some fine tuning though to get it working reliably.. also right now you basically have to stick the fire button into it from the inside before you insert the paddle..  don't have anything really keeping it locked in at this time.. however i suspect that once i get the limiter in place to keep the button from going too far down and printing the button on it's side the layers will not act as tiny ridges to get caught..  i'll try that next.

[MrTrust]

4 hours ago, Caleb Garner said:

@MrTrust progress!

 

 

Still going to take some fine tuning though to get it working reliably.. also right now you basically have to stick the fire button into it from the inside before you insert the paddle..  don't have anything really keeping it locked in at this time.. however i suspect that once i get the limiter in place to keep the button from going too far down and printing the button on it's side the layers will not act as tiny ridges to get caught..  i'll try that next.

 

Very neat.  I need to get my paddles out of their moving box, clean them up, and set up my VCS for programming Atari stuff so I can start experimenting with some of these ideas.  I did mess about a little bit with a kernel for a rotational paddle game at work the other day.  Nothing worth showing yet, but I'm getting less lazy anyway.

[8bitwidgets.com]

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

so I can start experimenting with some of these ideas. 

awesome    I'm doing numerous iterations to find a good shape / design to get the button to stay in place and slide reliably.. i'm doing my best to keep it as simple as possible.. two pieces.

[Zonie]

On 6/9/2023 at 12:11 PM, Caleb Garner said:

Hi everyone, so I just ordered a couple of used Omega Race attachments to experiment with, but much like the couplers I make for the 2600 and others..  I got to thinking that homebrewers relying on the user base to have an Omega Race style fire button to use CX40 controllers might stifle innovation for new game ideas..  

 

I've kinda been of a mindset "if you build it they will compile it.." mindset trying to offer affordable / readily available accessories to allow homebrewers to make new games that might be even more interesting / fun if they could go beyond the basic controllers and not rely on rare / expensive / niche items that would discourage the path forward to new experiences on this beloved hardware.  

 

 

(blue sky warning)

One such idea was making some kind of "Discs of Tron" game that would use a coupler that has a CX40 + one Paddle to play some kind of port / inspiration of it.  However this got me thinking about the fact that a coupler would make the fire button difficult to use..   hence the new omega race attachment..  however this could do things too for that hacked version of battlezone.. and i'm sure there are others not yet thought of.  

 

So yea I'm looking to make something like this..  but maybe this has been done before and it was a flop..   i've not been hip to the 2600 homebrew scene till really the last couple years and even then strictly as a gamer of original roms, no homebrews till recently.. 

A better choice would be one joystick and one driving controller. It is digital, and single, and like paddles, many people have them. One could say everyone has paddles, but those that bought used consoles, or 7800's might not. They are out in the wild, however...

 

As for it being done before, it hasn't but I've advocated here in the past for a "standard" expanded controller that people could either buy or one of the usual suspects build and sell (Like Edladdin), that offers more than just one button. A few good ideas have been tossed around, including a few of my own using both ports but it always boils down to people here poo pooing the idea saying homebrewers won't make a game for the few who have it.  Game variations could fix this. 2600/7800 has always been strong with variations.

 

As for what I think we should have as an input standard are 10 digital inputs:

• One standard Left joystick (Up, Down, Right, Left,)
• Four buttons (L-fire, R-fire, R-Left, R-Right) with the latter two being optional usage of the unused right port inputs.
• Spinner / driving controller in right port(R-up, R-down)

This would be easy to wire, no resistors, diodes, matricies, etc. Just plain digital input wiring. I toyed with using a matrix like the keyboard/video pad/kids controller but it isn't as effective, and complicates things.  The 7800 button wiring method is good too, and allows for use of the controller on 7800's standard games, but adds the resistors  and uses the paddle pot lines, and sometimes resistor values are not always read by the consoles the same...

 

The paddle pot lines are still available on both ports for addition as pots for other features as well, but that may be overkill...

 

The spinner could then be used for tron, driving games, speed control in a flying game, tool /weapon selection in adventure games, etc.

More buttons for games like Defender/Stargate,  fighting games, etc.

 

Use mainly the L-fire and R-fire as buttons A & B, make the R-left and R-right buttons use for more obscure features and/or for additional game variations like flippers for a pinball game, or smart bomb/inviso/hyperspace on Defender/Stargate, for example.

 

This method allows for one to use just an existing joystick and driving controller. Optional buttons would require custom (purchased or made themselves).

 

At any rate, we need at least one or two more action buttons. The rest is gravy.

 

I think half the fun is building better controls for existing games.  I've built my own controllers since I was a kid.

Like my other hobby, model rocketry, building the ground equipment and flight electronics are more fun than the rockets themselves.

 

I'm currently building another arcade controller myself now. It will also feature switching of some of the buttons for other uses, and for 2600/7800 mode (fire buttons) but primarily be Defender/Stargate layout, with extra buttons for proper Asteroids play, and pinball flippers on the sides. It is not what I would advocate for the standard, just what I am doing for myself for use with existing games. I have the enclosure, the Happs joystick and buttons, but not the time, currently. Too busy at work and side business at the moment...

 

My two cents, again.

[8bitwidgets.com]

1 hour ago, Zonie said:

My two cents, again.

all great points, I think the reality is there are two different schools of thought on this..   

 

- some people like playing with original hardware as much as possible..

 

- while others like playing with new designs.. 

 

 

my philosophy has also been coming up with good solutions that are low tech / inexpensive / effective.   Also some of these items are also meant to offer reliable / affordable options to supply a need, for example if someone made a new game that needed an omega race attachment or (as i've done already) make a coupler for robotron or a homebrew that also requires it..  instead of people having to compete for a limited number of these original attachments / accessories, they can be acquired for a fixed reasonable price.  

 

New joysticks tend to be more involved and expensive, but honestly I'm glad both options exist.  I own some after market joysticks like for my Vectrex (spinner and asteroids) and recently got one of those Coleco NES style joypads because I had a 30% coupon through etsy..  also the longplay from cote for the Intellivision was a nice item, but in spite of those I still find myself gravitating to the originals.  

 

using couplers it allows easier exploration of ideas..  and less upfront cost for folks, but hopefully if games came out that could support these hybrid controller configurations, it would create a demand for new controller designs that could enhance the experience.  This is definitely not an either / or scene..

Edited June 19, 2023 by Caleb Garner

[+x=usr(1536)]

This is just a brain dump of something I was thinking about a while ago.  It would require games to support the control scheme, but I figured I'd mention it since it had bubbled back to the surface.

 

Driving controller.  Uses two paddles: one for steering, one for throttle pedal angle.  Brakes are on one button; the other button is spare for assignment.  With use of a Y-adapter, it may be possible to also add a joystick for shifting gears manually, though that may have to be done sequentially rather than by direct selection due to the self-centering nature of the stick.

 

Second paddle button could work as a clutch pedal.  It'd only be in and out, but would be able to at least give a degree of simulation.  Honestly, it's probably better to treat it like a semi-automatic gearbox in which the clutch action is automated but gears are still shifted manually. Would not be required for fully-automatic operation.  Brakes could be put on a timer that increases their effectiveness the longer the button is held in - so if you just want to scrub a little speed coming in to a corner, a quick tap of the pedal can do that.  Holding it down would eventually bring you to a complete halt over time based on how fast you were going, road conditions, tyre condition, etc.

[8bitwidgets.com]

yea that's a great idea.. the button part or the paddles is tricky with stock paddles..  my mechanical button is still getting refined a bit since the video above though so far i can't say i've nailed it..  i'm trying to create something that works reliably and that the moving piece stays inside the coupler permanently, but tricky.. but getting close

 

I just printed this (waiting for me when I get home) to do some initial feels, but this could simulate at least the stick / steering.. of course only one fire button but that could be acceleration and the stick could be for gear shifting (no clutch) 

 

Could offer it in a Left hand / Right hand configuration..  I being a lefty would rather the paddle be on the left side and the stick on the right..  

 

Good thoughts though for sure.