Best Video Output option for an 800XL

[Rafael1138]

Hi. I just acquire an 800XL and really thought about how to connect it to my HDMI monitor. Have no space so I have an HDMI monitor that I share between Work PC, C64 and now with the Atari 800XL.

 

The upscaler I use with the C64 is not giving me a nice video. I can see the blue background and the ready/fujinet menu, but the white is not that good and the fonts are kind blurry.

 

I have read a lot about it but I'm still not clear. Some people recommend the Sophia, others the UAT and I understand these are mods but other people recommend the Retrothink 2X.

 

My question is, using a retrothink 2x will deliver the same result as doing one of these mods? (uat/sophia). The question is because the price difference between the Sophia2 and the retrothink is not big, so between an internal modification option and an external device the external will win in my book, but I'm not 100% sure if the retrothink 2x is the way.

 

Will appreciate your comments and experience.

 

Thank you.

[reifsnyderb]

The cheapest route is to add a 100 ohm resistor and a couple wires.  Pull a capacitor (or 2, depending upon the board) and S-Video works great.  Complete details are posted on this forum.

 

Edit to add:  You'll need a TV that can use S-Video to do this.

Edited June 15, 2023 by reifsnyderb

[chevymad]

I've done some of the "free" mods. My 800xl always looked crappy with them. Bought a few other mods from ebay and still didn't have any luck. I tried a UAV which is much better. I also have a VBXE and a Sophia. Sophia has the best pic of all. Plus with an adapter it will plug right into hdmi. Only problem is you need some way to play the audio. 

[Rafael1138]

8 minutes ago, chevymad said:

I've done some of the "free" mods. My 800xl always looked crappy with them. Bought a few other mods from ebay and still didn't have any luck. I tried a UAV which is much better. I also have a VBXE and a Sophia. Sophia has the best pic of all. Plus with an adapter it will plug right into hdmi. Only problem is you need some way to play the audio. 

If you take the video from the sophia, the audio can still be taken from the Din5 connector?

[Beeblebrox]

@Rafael1138 these topics have been covered many times on AA as you'll appreciate. (You mentioned you read about a lot sonic suspect you have been reading these on AtariAge anyway).

 

I won't repeat what is already out there but what I would add is the following. 

 

From your stock machine you'll want to first make sure the signal quality coming out of your machine is the best you can get before passing it through any upscaler. 

 

I personally run svideo (where as mentioned above you'll need to hook up a few things inside to use an svideo cable with a monitor or an upscaler that takes and svideo input. This is because a stock 800xl doesn't come with the ability to use colour svideo output from factory. Atari didn't have it hooked up. (The mod is simple and as mentioned above involves a wire with a 100ohm resistor in a wire to hook up the Din5 monitor jack's pin 5 chroma signal to give you colour. Then of course you'd want a decent shielded din5 to svideo cable. Some 800xls have a capacitor (c56) present which you can remove to make the image even sharper. Not all have this. 

 

For me the difference between running stock composite output to that of svideo is night and day. Svideo is very good. Then just make sure your upscaler has an svideo input. Remember also audio would need hooking up. Own a hercules workshop svideo cable which provides an rca audio out cable which then jsut hooks up to speakers. 

 

Also Sophia 2 isn't available at present as the current supply has run out in Europe and not sure whether where will be any more.  I just looked at the US supplier's website and looks like they'll have sold out too. https://thebrewingacademy.com/products/sophia-2-dvi-output-gtia-replacement

 

BTW Where are you based? 

 

Sophia 2 is a complete replacement and gives a digital output via DVI (where you can pass to an hdmi). If you can get a hold of one secondhand it's worth it.

 

UAV (you called it uat) is great, as is UGV. I have owned both. 

 

In own VBXE in a couple of machines and it provides an rgb out. For your purposes I don't think this would be a viable route to go. Lots on VBXE here on AA. It's much more that just a video output upgrade after all. 

 

If I were you I'd hook up svideo in the 800XL, get an svideo cable, ideally a double shielded one with an audio out built in, and hook up via your upscaler, (where it supports an svideo input). 

 

I can link to various posts if you like later but on my mobile at present typing this. 

 

 

[Rafael1138]

4 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

@Rafael1138 these topics have been covered many times on AA as you'll appreciate. (You mentioned you read about a lot sonic suspect you have been reading these on AtariAge anyway).

 

I won't repeat what is already out there but what I would add is the following. 

 

From your stock machine you'll want to first make sure the signal quality coming out of your machine is the best you can get before passing it through any upscaler. 

 

I personally run svideo (where as mentioned above you'll need to hook up a few things inside to use an svideo cable with a monitor or an upscaler that takes and svideo input. This is because a stock 800xl doesn't come with the ability to use colour svideo output from factory. Atari didn't have it hooked up. (The mod is simple and as mentioned above involves a wire with a 100ohm resistor in a wire to hook up the Din5 monitor jack's pin 5 chroma signal to give you colour. Then of course you'd want a decent shielded din5 to svideo cable. Some 800xls have a capacitor (c56) present which you can remove to make the image even sharper. Not all have this. 

 

For me the difference between running stock composite output to that of svideo is night and day. Svideo is very good. Then just make sure your upscaler has an svideo input. Remember also audio would need hooking up. Own a hercules workshop svideo cable which provides an rca audio out cable which then jsut hooks up to speakers. 

 

Also Sophia 2 isn't available at present as the current supply has run out in Europe and not sure whether where will be any more.  I just looked at the US supplier's website and looks like they'll have sold out too. https://thebrewingacademy.com/products/sophia-2-dvi-output-gtia-replacement

 

BTW Where are you based? 

 

Sophia 2 is a complete replacement and gives a digital output via DVI (where you can pass to an hdmi). If you can get a hold of one secondhand it's worth it.

 

UAV (you called it uat) is great, as is UGV. I have owned both. 

 

In own VBXE in a couple of machines and it provides an rgb out. For your purposes I don't think this would be a viable route to go. Lots on VBXE here on AA. It's much more that just a video output upgrade after all. 

 

If I were you I'd hook up svideo in the 800XL, get an svideo cable, ideally a double shielded one with an audio out built in, and hook up via your upscaler, (where it supports an svideo input). 

 

I can link to various posts if you like later but on my mobile at present typing this. 

 

 

Thank you for the explanation. I believe this is the mod you have explained:

 

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

1 hour ago, Rafael1138 said:

Thank you for the explanation. I believe this is the mod you have explained:

 

 

 

The connection looked right but was missing the 100 ohm resistor.  He also didn't do anything with the capacitor (s).

[reifsnyderb]

 

 

 

More information, above.

 

 

[Beeblebrox]

so yeah, the mod is dead easy to restore the Chroma colour to the Svideo. Although as Reifsnyderb says it is missing the 100ohm resistor in the wire.

 

It's all detailed and showcased here, (bear in mine my typo in this post, it should be R67/68 NOT R76/68): https://forums.atariage.com/topic/198754-current-best-s-video-picture-improvement-mod-for-800xl/?do=findComment&comment=5233830

 

Also note the other mod you can do to lift C54 (here) and stop composite interferance on an S-video cable when using an LCD. (Only affects the latter). I install a microswitch so I can still re-enable/use composite if I want. (In reality I never do as Svideo is so much better, but good to be able to).

 

The C56 capacitor lift (if indeed your 800XL is a revision whch even has the latter) helps sharpen the image a little. The same is present in the 600XL, where in the latter the removal of C109 results in a sharper image.

 

EDIT: BTW if you have an 800XLF (essentially looks the same until you open up the machine to see the PCB has a 40pin Freddie chip), then Chroma doesn't need hooking up and you shuld be able to use Svideo. However you can still do the equivilant to the C54 lift on the XLF (where it is C46 instead on the XLF see here).  If you don't have an 800XLF then ignore all this - just worth mentioning.

 

It's unfortunate because at present the only recommended commercially available double sheilded Atari Din5 to Svideo cable was made in Cananda by Hercules workshop. They closed up shop in the last couple of months.

 

Double shielded cables are very important as single or no shielding on an S-video cable allows cable crosstalk and makes for poorer image/interferance. Some of the S-video cables you see on Ebay for the Atari 8-bit have no sheilding at all, or have just outer cable sheilding. Double is where the individual wires inside the main cable are individually sheilded as well. Some people make their own up. (Apparently it's quite fiddly).

 

Lots of info on AA - just search. (Or rather use Google to search the AA domain for what you are looking for).

Edited June 15, 2023 by Beeblebrox
adding more info

[Rafael1138]

Thank you for being patience and take the time to share the links. I really appreciate it. I already have the DIN to S-Video cable but for sure the switch option is a good way to go.

 

So if I get this correct, it should be like this (actual picture of my board):

 

 

So R67 & R68 need to be joined and from there the cable to Pin 5 right?

[Beeblebrox]

50 minutes ago, Rafael1138 said:

Thank you for being patience and take the time to share the links. I really appreciate it. I already have the DIN to S-Video cable but for sure the switch option is a good way to go.

 

So if I get this correct, it should be like this (actual picture of my board):

 

 

So R67 & R68 need to be joined and from there the cable to Pin 5 right?

No worries

 

You almost got it right. See my version of your image below where I've indicated the location of r67/68 in green: 

 

 

The R67 and R68 are already joined on the board, (on the underside via traces), so I just solder them together as one any way. Makes no difference if you solder to one or the other. Yes a wire with a 100ohm resistor (I use a 100ohm 1/4w carbon film resistor) goes to the pin 5 as per the AA page we linked to.

 

Remember if you lift C54 it will mean composite out is in black and white. See my post for the installation of a switch. If you plan to only use S-video then go ahead. If in doubt leave that for now and do the C54 lift (and switch) at a later date. Sometimes it's better to do things a little at a time, just in case you run into issues.

 

EDIT: Do us a favour and take a whole hi res shot of the 800XL PCB. Worth having it as reference. I suspect it is a Rev D stock 800XL PCB.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Beeblebrox

[reifsnyderb]

I like to install the jumper and 100 ohm resistor on the bottom of the board.  It's easy to route the wires, and resistor, so as to avoid the shielding and you won't risk damaging the monitor connector with the soldering iron.

[Beeblebrox]

51 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

I like to install the jumper and 100 ohm resistor on the bottom of the board.  It's easy to route the wires, and resistor, so as to avoid the shielding and you won't risk damaging the monitor connector with the soldering iron.

I do a combo of the both. I connect from the top to r67/68, pass the wire through a pre-existing hole in the PCB and then wire to the underside trace for pin 5. I agree soldering directly to the upper jack monitor metal isn't preferable. I don't know why I do the tip/bottom side method. Maybe it's just because I like to see at a glance what mods are installed. I always remove shielding personally. Never been an issue not having it for my purposes. Plus most of the time I have other mods where having shielding present is a major pain. 

[Rafael1138]

Like a Charm! Works perfect and the image is 200% better! Thank you very much!

 

This image helps?

[Beeblebrox]

Cool. So for the record what mods did you do?  The chroma hook up and c54 lift? 

 

Thanks for the image. 

Good news is you have a fully socketed pcb so makes upgrades a lot easier. 

I see you are running ntsc. Where are you based? 

 

 

[Rafael1138]

You know waht, you take time to help me so I took time to provide lot better pictures. Let me know if these help:

[Beeblebrox]

Thanks. I love Hong Kong made 800xl pcbs.

[Rafael1138]

I'm in Florida. I follow your instructions. Just lift the C54 and Soldered pin 5 to R67 with the 100ohm Resistor. I covered with the yellow heat sleeve.

I'm using the Atari 8-Bit 5-Pin DIN S-Video & Composite AV Cable from 8-Bit Classics.

 

I have no idea what those 2 red/brown wires on the front do.

[reifsnyderb]

I never understood why Atari didn't connect the Chroma.  It wasn't due to lack of space on the board.   😕

[reifsnyderb]

7 minutes ago, Rafael1138 said:

I have no idea what those 2 red/brown wires on the front do.

One is +5vdc.  I forget if the other is also +5vdc or ground.  I figured it out once and have it posted here somewhere.  I have no idea why Atari added those.

 

Edit to add:  I just pulled out a board and checked.  They are both +5vdc.

Edited June 15, 2023 by reifsnyderb

[Rafael1138]

5 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

I never understood why Atari didn't connect the Chroma.  It wasn't due to lack of space on the board.   😕

And a good Keyboard solid connector! lol

[Beeblebrox]

17 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

I never understood why Atari didn't connect the Chroma.  It wasn't due to lack of space on the board.   😕

Indeed. Especially as you can hook up and older Atari 800 to Svideo with no issues out the box.  I guess these were the days where RF was the standard and most common method of hooking the A8 up. Shudder! Composite output isn't great but RF........😱

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

11 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Indeed. Especially as you can hook up and older Atari 800 to Svideo with no issues out the box.  I guess these were the days where RF was the standard and most common method of hooking the A8 up. Shudder! Composite output isn't great but RF........😱

 

 

What gets me is that adding the 100 ohm resistor (and probably a ferrite bead) wouldn't have been hard at all.  There's plenty of space on the board at that location.  I created a modified Rev. D board that includes those two components as R900 (100 ohm resistor) and L900 (as the ferrite bead).  The reason for the omission of these components completely eludes me.  As horrible as the B/W output is, of an unmodified monitor port, I see only a huge disadvantage.  Can you imagine a salesman telling a potential customer that the monitor port output sucks?  I just don't get it.

 

 

 

 

[+mytek]

15 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

I just don't get it.

What makes this particularly odd, is that other than the video level being perhaps a tad bit low, they already had this solved in the original 800 so why didn't they just carry that design across? Cost really shouldn't have been a factor, especially concerning the missing chroma on the XLs, which simply needed a small additional (no added cost) trace added to the board and perhaps a one cent component or two. I know this has been pounded on to death, but it almost seems like the video circuit was the only place where Jr Engineers were allowed to leave their mark, and they certainly did

[+Stephen]

46 minutes ago, mytek said:

seems like the video circuit was the only place where Jr Engineers were allowed to leave their mark, and they certainly did

A big old skid mark!