v1.7 noob here... some initial results (testing)...

[Faicuai]

Ok, have been for the last couple of days, working extensively with this little v1.7 Swiss-Army knife.

 

After tested successfully lots of functionality, here's what caught my attention:

 

1. When hot-plugging / unplugging FN into SIO port of powered-up host, I get what in seems to be either a warm or a cold-start (on either my reference 800 or Incognito, it does not matter). This is strange.
2. +12v are passed-through properly, which is something I CANNOT say from my active SIO-hub from Lotharek (for instance).
3. When plugging VoiceBox-II on the SIO-through port of FN, the Votrax audio becomes distorted (low-pitched / slowed-down). If I set FN switch to OFF, while everything plugged, incoming Votrax audio plays normally.
4. ESP-32 driven voice-synthesis is really cool... but very strangely it does NOT work on plain / genuine 800, it will only do so on Incognito / 800 in XL/XE mode. Same with some applications like Weather, News, etc. I though this simple stuff would at least be cross-platform compatible, no?
5. RF sensitivity or antenna-gain is significantly lower than I expected. Best case [-43 to -48 dBm] vs. [-30 to -35 dBm on my old Dell 1440z laptop], next to each other. That is a big difference.
6. Since only 2.4Ghz is supported, I was forced to re-enable and remap my 2.4G channels on both my access-points, to create best possible coverage on the house. Plenty of testing required to ensure that.
7. Ended up using Channel 6 (from aux. Access Point, in 20/40 width and auto-throughput) and Channel 11 (from main Access Point). Was forced to create enough space-diversity to use FN around the house by over-modulating my neighbor's and other's (no choice), since the noise-floor here is just way too high.
8. Working flawlessly at Divisor=1 directly on unmodified 800 SIO-port, with SDX own SIO-drivers.
9. Tested CAS, ATR and ATX (both local and on-network), flawlessly so-far (once WiFi ordeal ended happily).
10. VERY nice web front-end, with access to most important features. Still need to test Serial / Modem, Printing, etc.
11. LOVELY tools for listing directories, mounting images right from SDX prompt (with supplied ToolKit). This is really nice, indeeed!

 

Still need to see some www pages displayed (like I see on my Apple/II with its ethernet card)

 

All-in-all, very cool, very nice, and tons of potential! WELL done!!

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Faicuai

[mozzwald]

5 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

When hot-plugging / unplugging FN into SIO port of powered-up host, I get what in seems to be either a warm or a cold-start (on either my reference 800 or Incognito, it does not matter). This is strange.

Maybe inrush current to Fujinet causing brown out on the 800? Not sure. While I've done hot plugging on my 800XL without issue, it's not really recommended.

 

11 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

When plugging VoiceBox-II on the SIO-through port of FN, the Votrax audio becomes distorted (low-pitched / slowed-down). If I set FN switch to OFF, while everything plugged, incoming Votrax audio plays normally.

We can try to see if changing the pinmode for Fujinet audio out when not in use makes a difference. 

14 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

ESP-32 driven voice-synthesis is really cool... but very strangely it does NOT work on plain / genuine 800, it will only do so on Incognito / 800 in XL/XE mode.

IIRC, the 400/800 only supported 2 printers and Fujinet SAM uses printer 4. Maybe there's another way it could be implemented? A new SAM device with commands?

19 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Same with some applications like Weather, News, etc. I though this simple stuff would at least be cross-platform compatible, no?

I can't remember why those don't work on 800. Maybe @bocianu can explain

21 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

RF sensitivity or antenna-gain is significantly lower than I expected.

There is the option to build Fujinet with external antenna which I did in the past, but it was not very popular so I stopped making them. I could bring that option back and do those custom builds. It's more work and more parts which = higher cost, but if there's interest I will make them.

 

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, mozzwald said:

Maybe inrush current to Fujinet causing brown out on the 800? Not sure. While I've done hot plugging on my 800XL without issue, it's not really recommended.

Well, I turned Fujinet OFF (with its own switch) and when plugging on powered-up 800 (genuine, unmodified) I get an instant COLD START. It is the same on 800 / Incognito, too. Hasn't this been reported already? If not, how come no one did? It seems there is something specific to Fujinet's internal SIO termination that is causing this. I have plenty of other SIO devices that DO NOT trip a ColdStart when hot plugged / unplugged. Of course, does not affect anything while operating normally after cold-plugging.

 

1 hour ago, mozzwald said:

We can try to see if changing the pinmode for Fujinet audio out when not in use makes a difference. 

Let me know how should I test any changes here, so incoming Votrax audio can be played without low-pitch distortion.

 

1 hour ago, mozzwald said:

IIRC, the 400/800 only supported 2 printers and Fujinet SAM uses printer 4. Maybe there's another way it could be implemented? A new SAM device with commands?

Well, just give the option on BIOS web-page to route SAM to a supported 400 / 800 printer. After all, If I recall correctly, SAM was originally developed for THAT platform and now it does not work on it!! 😵‍🥴

 

1 hour ago, mozzwald said:

I can't remember why those don't work on 800. Maybe @bocianu can explain

Because for some (unknown to me) reason, the author chose to use RAM under the OS, which is only supported on the XL... Never imagined a simple news reader or weather would require that... 😵‍😳

 

1 hour ago, mozzwald said:

but it was not very popular

Why I am not surprised? 🥴 In the absence of clean 5G spectrum, your idea of using external antennas (even optionally) is not only correct, but actually necessary to overcome propagation obstacles and 2.4G excessive noise-floor. I would have bought it, guaranteed. As long as the antennas can be "twisted", there is no real functional reason to fully drop them out of production. They will SOLVE a lot of issues with a +6 to +9 dB gain, give or take.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Faicuai

[_The Doctor__]

I think most people are externally powering their FujiNets so it's not as prevalent because of that.

[Faicuai]

52 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

I think most people are externally powering their FujiNets

Interesting, because it works well without external power, and if you use one, you have to be careful with p/s noise-ingress through SIO port, finding its way through the video circuitry into your screen (I have tested this, already...) In other words, a REALLY clean p/s would be needed!

[Faicuai]

20 hours ago, mozzwald said:

IIRC, the 400/800 only supported 2 printers and Fujinet SAM uses printer 4. Maybe there's another way it could be implemented? A new SAM device with commands?

Wanted to clarify something, herd:

 

When mounting .XEXs or disk images, I can hear SAM speech-synthesis playing "Disk 1", "Disk 2". nicely.

 

It is when testing it through Basic sample-code what will not work.

[_The Doctor__]

change disk is internally triggering sam and the audio in picks that up with no issue. SAM command issued from the Atari itself takes the P: device route in this instance.

You were able to modify that in the program it would be a good idea that it be configurable in fujinet

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[Faicuai]

10 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

SAM command issued from the Atari itself takes the P: device route in this instance.

Correct, through CIO's "P" device/s, which seem to be the problem.

 

I just wanted to clarify things, so my finding would not be construed as a "nuthing-works" blanket statement.

 

Nevertheless, I can't find any real reason for not being configurable on Fujinet "bios" web-page, so it gets routed to available  P-devices on standard 400/800. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Faicuai

[mozzwald]

On 6/23/2023 at 6:04 PM, Faicuai said:

Well, I turned Fujinet OFF (with its own switch) and when plugging on powered-up 800 (genuine, unmodified) I get an instant COLD START. It is the same on 800 / Incognito, too. Hasn't this been reported already? If not, how come no one did? It seems there is something specific to Fujinet's internal SIO termination that is causing this. I have plenty of other SIO devices that DO NOT trip a ColdStart when hot plugged / unplugged. Of course, does not affect anything while operating normally after cold-plugging.

Have not heard of this issue until now and I do not have an 800 to test with.

On 6/23/2023 at 6:04 PM, Faicuai said:

Well, just give the option on BIOS web-page to route SAM to a supported 400 / 800 printer. After all, If I recall correctly, SAM was originally developed for THAT platform and now it does not work on it!! 😵‍🥴

On 6/24/2023 at 11:50 PM, Faicuai said:

Nevertheless, I can't find any real reason for not being configurable on Fujinet "bios" web-page, so it gets routed to available  P-devices on standard 400/800. 

I went to go add an issue on github for it and there's one already there https://github.com/FujiNetWIFI/fujinet-platformio/issues/378 I'm not sure what it would take to make this a configurable option.

On 6/23/2023 at 6:04 PM, Faicuai said:

Why I am not surprised? 🥴 In the absence of clean 5G spectrum, your idea of using external antennas (even optionally) is not only correct, but actually necessary to overcome propagation obstacles and 2.4G excessive noise-floor. I would have bought it, guaranteed. As long as the antennas can be "twisted", there is no real functional reason to fully drop them out of production. They will SOLVE a lot of issues with a +6 to +9 dB gain, give or take.

I have enough parts on hand to build 2 external antenna fujinets. If you're interested, pm me and we can figure something out.

On 6/23/2023 at 6:04 PM, Faicuai said:

Let me know how should I test any changes here, so incoming Votrax audio can be played without low-pitch distortion.

Are you able to build the firmware if I provide some changes or do you need me to provide custom firmware files to be applied with fujinet-flasher? Instructions for building firmware are at https://github.com/FujiNetWIFI/fujinet-platformio/wiki/pio-6-x-howto

[_The Doctor__]

How about I get a mozzwald built external antennae fujinet, that should rule out the vendor issue then and possible signal issues then.

I am venting on chatari at the moment, it's kind of a concurrent affair, but I have it working in 64 column mode. For some reason I can't send more than 77/78 chars at a time so there must be some concatenation length issue I keep not seeing, I can input all day long though

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+x=usr(1536)]

Just a thought:

 

The only real restriction on adding an antenna to a FujiNet is the case.  If you don't care about making holes in it, an antenna along these lines is a cheap addition.  If there's no room to conveniently mount an SMA connector on the case itself, just lop the one on the antenna off and solder it straight to the PCB's antenna traces.

[mozzwald]

It's a little more involved than that, see the post below

 

[+Stephen]

I changed mine from internal to external antenna.  Was a very easy job - just required changing (removing, then adding) a SMD 0402 jumper (see R14, R15 for reference - job is not completed here).  For size reference, each through hole is 0.100"

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, mozzwald said:

It's a little more involved than that, see the post below

31 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I changed mine from internal to external antenna.  Was a very easy job - just required changing (removing, then adding) a SMD 0402 jumper (see R14, R15 for reference - job is not completed here).  For size reference, each through hole is 0.100"

 

OK, that is a bit more than I'd thought it would be.  Still, though, not terrible by any means.  Very doable.

[Faicuai]

4 hours ago, mozzwald said:

Have not heard of this issue until now and I do not have an 800 to test with.

It would be good to run that through any other Fujinet + 800 users here to confirm. I will try to later capture live-video with the Cold-Start on hot-plug.

 

4 hours ago, mozzwald said:

have enough parts on hand to build 2 external antenna fujinets. If you're interested, pm me and we can figure something out.

Will do so!

 

4 hours ago, mozzwald said:

Are you able to build the firmware if I provide some changes or do you need me to provide custom firmware files to be applied with fujinet-flasher? Instructions for building firmware are at https://github.com/FujiNetWIFI/fujinet-platformio/wiki/pio-6-x-howto

Well, checked the instructions and setting up the environment looks like it may take some time, because I am not sure the laptop I use for everyday-retro will handle it (so I may have to jump to my workstation). In the meantime, I may need the pre-built beta-firmware to start. I'll do my best, here.

 

Some extra info. on Viicebox-II specific use of SIO interface (may be useful, before anything):

 

 

Last but not least, discovered this failed test in Acid-800, specifically on Pokey's Async mode tests, take a look:

 

 

Although I cannot associate this particular test with an actual problem or limitation during everyday use, I must say that it passes on my Nuxx SDrive without a problem. Also, it is worth noting that Fujinet's SIO WRITE speeds are substantially LOWER on same media-format (SDX, 16MB, 256b/sec ATR) than Nuxx Drive. At divisor 1, effective read-speeds on SDX is 8KB/sec for both, while write speeds about 7 KB/sec (Nuxx) and 5 KB/sec (FN). Not much of an issue since I use FN mostly for input, but IT IS there, for sure.

 

Cheers! 👍💪

Edited June 27, 2023 by Faicuai

[mozzwald]

I do have a 400 and pulled it out last night. It did reset when hot plugging fujinet. I'm not sure what the SIO hardware differences are b/w the release machines and the later. Will have to investigate. I guess you'll just have to live without hotplugging on the 400/800 unless something gets figured out in the future.

 

12 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Well, checked the instructions and setting up the environment looks like it may take some time, because I am not sure the laptop I use for everyday-retro will handle it (so I may have to jump to my workstation). In the meantime, I may need the pre-built beta-firmware to start. I'll do my best, here.

I will make a build for you to test.

 

12 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Also, it is worth noting that Fujinet's SIO WRITE speeds are substantially LOWER on same media-format

To sd card or network?

[_The Doctor__]

perhaps inrush to fill the bulk capacitor is too great, adjusting capacity to limit inrush but still smooth and filter may be in order.

all of the start up demands on the more recent devices and carts are very strong.

Edited June 27, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[Faicuai]

2 hours ago, mozzwald said:

I will make a build for you to test.

THX !! Truly appreciated!

 

2 hours ago, mozzwald said:

To sd card or network?

To LOCAL SD card, of course, so I could draw 1:1 comparisons with Nuxx SDrive, with its own local storage, too.

 

[mozzwald]

4 hours ago, Faicuai said:

THX !! Truly appreciated!

Ok, try this build and lemmie know if it makes a difference.

https://github.com/mozzwald/fujinet-platformio/releases/tag/v1-samtest

[Faicuai]

3 hours ago, mozzwald said:

Ok, try this build and lemmie know if it makes a difference.

https://github.com/mozzwald/fujinet-platformio/releases/tag/v1-samtest

Ok, Firmware upgrade (entire .ZIP) completed successfully, after having to find appropriate drivers for Windows. 

 

The Votrax audio is coming VERY slow, and low-pitched, whether Fujinet power-switch is ON or OFF (does not matter, I tested). 

 

What is interesting is that on VoiceBox-II main utility, whenever you type a phonetic sentence, it is then routed to VoiceBox-II and the prompt-cursor WILL NOT return prompt-ready until Votrax finishes synthesis (and all of this with incoming audio coming really low-pitched and slowed-down).

 

That in turn suggests that Votrax is actually BUSY while playing audio much slower and lower-pitch. In other words, the issue maybe of what is coming OUT of Fujinet's SIO port (line-control of Votrax), rather than what it is coming in from Votrax (it is just busy executing). At any point in time, there is NO lock-up or loss of control of VoiceBox-II, etc. Just a very slow, very low-pitched audio, which completes playback fully, but much later than usual.

 

This is my subjective interpretation based on what I see happening on the screen.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Faicuai

[mozzwald]

8 hours ago, Faicuai said:

The Votrax audio is coming VERY slow, and low-pitched, whether Fujinet power-switch is ON or OFF (does not matter, I tested). 

I completely misunderstood what is happening here. This has nothing to do with the audio pin. Is there any schematic or hardware documentation for this Votrax thing?

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, mozzwald said:

This has nothing to do with the audio pin. Is there any schematic or hardware documentation for this Votrax thing?

The schematics is the worrying part. I will check in whatever documentation I got on my VoiceBox-II packing.

 

In the meantime, and before digging ourselves into a rabbit-hole here, let me hook-up SuperSalt Test gear to the 800 while Fujinet is plugged. I will run all Pokey, Cassette and SIO-lines tests, and will get back to you with more specific stuff, if found by SuperSalt. This could help guide the thinking here, in a more productive way.

Cheers!

[tschak909]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:14 PM, Faicuai said:

Ok, have been for the last couple of days, working extensively with this little v1.7 Swiss-Army knife.

 

After tested successfully lots of functionality, here's what caught my attention:

 

1. When hot-plugging / unplugging FN into SIO port of powered-up host, I get what in seems to be either a warm or a cold-start (on either my reference 800 or Incognito, it does not matter). This is strange.
2. +12v are passed-through properly, which is something I CANNOT say from my active SIO-hub from Lotharek (for instance).
3. When plugging VoiceBox-II on the SIO-through port of FN, the Votrax audio becomes distorted (low-pitched / slowed-down). If I set FN switch to OFF, while everything plugged, incoming Votrax audio plays normally.
4. ESP-32 driven voice-synthesis is really cool... but very strangely it does NOT work on plain / genuine 800, it will only do so on Incognito / 800 in XL/XE mode. Same with some applications like Weather, News, etc. I though this simple stuff would at least be cross-platform compatible, no?
5. RF sensitivity or antenna-gain is significantly lower than I expected. Best case [-43 to -48 dBm] vs. [-30 to -35 dBm on my old Dell 1440z laptop], next to each other. That is a big difference.
6. Since only 2.4Ghz is supported, I was forced to re-enable and remap my 2.4G channels on both my access-points, to create best possible coverage on the house. Plenty of testing required to ensure that.
7. Ended up using Channel 6 (from aux. Access Point, in 20/40 width and auto-throughput) and Channel 11 (from main Access Point). Was forced to create enough space-diversity to use FN around the house by over-modulating my neighbor's and other's (no choice), since the noise-floor here is just way too high.
8. Working flawlessly at Divisor=1 directly on unmodified 800 SIO-port, with SDX own SIO-drivers.
9. Tested CAS, ATR and ATX (both local and on-network), flawlessly so-far (once WiFi ordeal ended happily).
10. VERY nice web front-end, with access to most important features. Still need to test Serial / Modem, Printing, etc.
11. LOVELY tools for listing directories, mounting images right from SDX prompt (with supplied ToolKit). This is really nice, indeeed!

 

Still need to see some www pages displayed (like I see on my Apple/II with its ethernet card)

 

All-in-all, very cool, very nice, and tons of potential! WELL done!!

 

SAM on the ESP32 doesn't work on the 800, because the OS has no provision for printer device # 4.

 

-Thom

[+DjayBee]

1 hour ago, tschak909 said:

SAM on the ESP32 doesn't work on the 800, because the OS has no provision for printer device # 4.

Some people had the idea to make the printer number configurable in FujiNet's web UI (losing the possibility to do real printing to that device no.). 

[Faicuai]

53 minutes ago, DjayBee said:

Some people had the idea to make the printer number configurable in FujiNet's web UI (losing the possibility to do real printing to that device no.). 

There we go, that's more like it! 👍💪