Does anyone actually pay $20 for ROMs?

[Omegamatrix]

I haven't read this whole thread, but it kind of reminds me a whole lot of the $5 shake scene from Pulp Fiction. It's just where my brain goes...

 

 

 

[+sramirez2008]

Yep…That’s a pretty good homebrew, don’t know if it’s worth $20, but it’s pretty good.😉

[+GoldLeader]

Do ya get bourbon with that homebrew?

 

 

Jus checkin'

[Giles N]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:21 PM, BobAtari said:

but does anyone actually pay $20 for a digital ROM?

Depends on the quality and content.

 

Of course, if something had come along - original in content and design - having the quality of Mappy, I’d be happy to pay 20$ for a ROM.

 

Thing is: if such a game is made, being that top-notch, what’re the chances it’ll only get a ROM-run, not be released on cart somewhere…?

 

- - -

 

I find it suboptimally as to satisfaction, to play certain retro-titles only through emulation, yet when I think about it - what exactly are all the 100s of arcade-ports I’ve been playing on PS2, PSP, Wii, Switch etc, but advanced emulations…?

No-one stuffs original arcade circuit-boards into these game-consoles, yet I’m satisfied as long as they play, look, sound and come across as the original (and if stuff is added thats fine as long as the original version is there)).

 

I’m even an Evercade-fan; every 2600-title there is actually an emulated ROM on PC-type hardware.

(no tiny 2600-hardware stuffed into the carts).

 

I think for me: I’ll pay as much as the quality there-in invites me to …

 

- - -

Mappy seems off the local map right now (and forever), and I can sit around and hope that plagiarism finally will be accepted as what every single gaming company has been doing since november 1971, is the normal, not the exception.

(the exception is establishing new gameplay-formulas and genres which then stay around for decades to come).

 

So when will we see FLAPPY & BATTY ?  - 2 cute little Bat-friends who must jump ‘n flutter about a platformed house, escaping, uhm… eh…  Bat-catchers …(?) … uhm… sent to round-up every nice little Bat which just try to live their peaceful Bat-lifes… 

… it could kinda have a bit of the general feel of an 80ies arcade as to graphics and sound…

[Giles N]

45 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

 

Do ya get bourbon with that homebrew?

 

 

Jus checkin'

 

Yes, non-alcoholic bourbon…

 

… exactly same great taste… 

 

… incredible what some dabbling with chemistry and physics can achieve today…

[+GoldLeader]

1 hour ago, Giles N said:

Yes, non-alcoholic bourbon…

 

… exactly same great taste… 

 

… incredible what some dabbling with chemistry and physics can achieve today…

 

Well,

 

You might wanna see this.

[Giles N]

BATTY… is that you?

… or is it FLAPPY…?

[Rakutenka]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:21 PM, BobAtari said:

I know everyone has strong opinions about pricing for retro homebrew - and if it needs saying I fully support the right of creators to ask whatever price they see fit for their creations and I don't believe I have any right to get them for less - but does anyone actually pay $20 for a digital ROM?

 

I'm not asking "do you think it's a fair price?", because fairness is an inherently subjective concept and not really applicable to non-necessity items anyway. I'm asking if you put your money where your mouth is and genuinely hand over the real dollars in real life.

 

(I don't. I've paid $10 many a time, but that's my limit. I'd love to buy the entire Champ Games 2600 catalogue at that price, but at $20 a pop they can shove it.)

 

Just curious. Show of hands?

I'm just seeing this now. Last night I bought Wizard of Wor Arcade from Champ Games. $20 now a days is nothing due to inflation. A lot of these are passion projects by one person teams working out of their home. You are paying for their hard effort of making the game. Some of these are really impressive and really push the hardware, so IMO if it's quality work, I'll pay it.

 

I love that Champ Games offer ROM options. I prefer that over physical carts because I don't have the space, so the games go on a flash cart.

[Mr SQL]

Anyone can sell an Atari 2600 ROM for $20 if it's good, but not if you release more than a demo version of the game.

 

I released a demo version of BREAKANOID and eventually released the full version after selling the ROM.

https://videogamecritic.com/2600bb.htm?s=3#rev3933

In this instance, the players that bought the ROM had access to the whole game years earlier than players waiting for the ROM to be released.

Comparatively I created a very smooth scrolling version of KC Munchkin and sold the physical media but only released this video.
I had encouragement from both Ed Averett and Microsoft sponsoring me for the technology innovation including MBR motion blur reduction (no judder when KC scrolls).

 

In this instance the playes and collectors that bought the physical media had access to the game earlier but also had a rare collectors item outside of unauthorized repros.
 
I think when selling a game ROM for $20 the rights to have Al create a physical cart should be included with the ROM to keep this option open for collectors.  

 

I provided this right with the $20 ROM so those who purchased it could have the physical media, also now a rare collectors item. 

 

I've been writing commercial video games since the 80's but I now no longer sell ROM's or physical media,

The reactions to the suicide poster on this thread illustrate why.

 

My commercial website RelationalFramework.com has my business phone where hundreds of disturbing suicide messages have been left as DNS attack as no help was needed.

 

This is very off-putting to innovation and derailing to a small company sponsored for Technology, RelationalFramework is not a suicide hotlline.

 

Nor is this thread though the suicide poster may genuinely need help; whenever I receive dramatic PM's or email even remotely suggestive I always hand over the ROM right away just in case because you never know

 

Now here's a fun version of ARKANOID AIR DOH for the Atari 2600 and the Commodore 64 Atari 2600 emulator which runs the same ROM on the C64 and expands the games featureset: ROM Price $0.00, $0.00 (Double Free don't call)

 

ARKANOID-AIR-DOH.bin

arkanoid-air-doh.prg

 

 

[Bomberman94]

Yes, I pay sometimes more and sometimes less than 20 $US for ROMS - I have different consoles and prices differ a lot…

 

If I really (really) like a game and play it often, love the artwork and MUST have it, then I buy the „full package“ - therefore I own almost every Champ Games title CIB. If i really like a game and play it often then I „only“ buy the cartridge with the instruction (like Amoeba Jump, Wall Jump Ninja and others). 
 

For the rest: Most of the Atari 2600 games are free of charge. Other are limited / or demo versions and - if I want it to play more - I’m willing to pay something. Not every game is really worth 20 (in my opinion) but others are worth much more (e.g. Boulder Dash with more than a decade of coding and thinking „how to make it possible“ or Penult with its huge world and possibilities and 128K of ROM space). 
 

But to be realistic, all of us here are hopeless enthusiasts who play a 40+ year old console and love and cherish much because of nostalgia and memories. And what value have there 20 dollars in comparison? 🤷‍♂️

[BobAtari]

19 hours ago, Bomberman94 said:

but others are worth much more (e.g. Boulder Dash with more than a decade of coding and thinking „how to make it possible“

 

Which of course is why it's so dismaying that such a microscopically small number of people will ever get to play it. 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

11 minutes ago, BobAtari said:

Which of course is why it's so dismaying that such a microscopically small number of people will ever get to play it. 

With the new license, the theoretical number is only limited by Al's time.  

[e1will]

I can add a data point to this discussion. My game has long been available as a ROM you can buy, and people do indeed willingly pay $20 for it. Not a ton, obviously, since it's an original title (not much built-in nostalgia) and it is the Atari 2600 we're talking about. But definitely non-zero!

 

And I'm happy to pay $20 for ROMs myself (depending on the game, of course.) My most recent purchase was Qyx from Champ Games and it's been worth every penny and then some. It's a great game with some really cool enhancements that the original arcade version didn't have.

 

So my answer to "Does anyone actually pay $20 for ROMs?" is... yep, sometimes!

[+Kaboomer]

I'll add my 2 cents to this somewhat crazy thread since I spent the last hour reading it. I have both a marketing and engineering degree and work with programmers all day as well, so thought it very interesting discussion. Disregarding the (anti) capitalism comments which are a distraction, I think the sweet spot is about $10. It's in the price range of (when we used to buy) a CD or album, and I think we get similar VALUE out of them. So just going on what a consumer VALUES and how much usage they'll get, I'd say the range of $5 - $15 with $20 being a rarity (in my analogy, say a double album or CD) at the top of the line. I've enjoyed Champ's full ROM catalog and paid for them, as well as Muddy's recent ones after buying physical copies. I think other authors would be wise to take some advice from Champ on their download / discount process if that appeals to them.

[Impaler_26]

Buying ROMs is a good way to support developers and i have no problem paying up to  $10 for an Atari 2600 ROM. I will also pay $20 for a ROM occassionally if i really like the game. The last game i bought was Soul of the Beast and i will grab a few from Champ Games too.

 

 

[knievel1]

Agreed with $10 - $15. 

The new Zarkstars looks great but unless I could try it I wouldn't pay $20. 

But for $10 or $15? Yeah, probably. 

Same with Casey's Gold. Anything from a proven company, okay charge more. 

As a kid, Appetite for Destruction cost the same as Wang Chung. 
One was worth way more than list price, the other, perhaps less. 

That may not be the best allegory. 

 

 

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 minutes ago, knievel1 said:

Anything from a proven company, okay charge more. 

Why?  And what constitutes a "proven company"?

[NE146]

Quote

Does anyone actually pay $20 for ROMs?

I just did actually. 10 ROMS in total!

 

 

[knievel1]

20 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Why?  And what constitutes a "proven company"?

Champ? Audacity? Atari Age? 

I guess? I get the theory of rewarding hard work, just trying to think of the sweet spot that's realistic. 

If the demo plays as good as it looks - what full-rom price would work for both programmer & consumer? 

Not the collector. Just someone who wants a new game to play. 

I wonder how Champ does with their $20 roms. 

 

 

[Zonie]

If I were a home-brewer, which I am not, I would not make my ROMs available if I were selling physical carts. I might offer it if you buy the physical release, but as a serialized copy with an EULA that states that distribution, free or otherwise, is forbidden and may result in legal action.  Yeah, a few hundred sales over several years for $35 isn't worth action, but when some scalper starts burning EPROMs and selling knockoffs on ETSY (it is a thing) or as a "Rare" cart for $500 on eBay, then it is. Violation of an EULA for a published work becomes severely punishable once these "stolen works"  are distributed via the US postal service, which most people use since it is cheaper. The damage awards, which are usually triple, are based on the value that the scalper acually establishes with their sale, or your original sale price, whichever is larger.

I own an Automation company. We design and build machine control packages which include a PLC, HMI, and the usual switch gear, IO, motor controls, etc, needed in such equipment. The PLC and HMI both contain software we write, and we sell the hardware and we License the single copy of the code for each module. The only time the customer gets the source code is if it is part of the deal, they sign an EULA that prohibits copying, and they have fully paid for all NRE (Non recurring engineering) costs. Of course we are working at an order of magnitude higher returns, but the concept is applicable.

[99V]

35 years ago the expected donation for a shareware game was about $3. Good to see the price has gone up $2 in all that time. We don't do this to become rich do we? 

[Legend]

I've yet to pay that much n for a rom personally. I'd pay that for a rom and printed manual.

 

But it's a bit steep for a digital 2600 rom in my opinion. I understand people work hard on their games. But I doubt anyone is living off the sales of 2600 homebrew.

 

I paid for the first Star Castle 2600 rom. And recently backed a kickstarted for an upcoming genesis homebrew rom for $10. 

 

I had considered buying some of the champ games roms at one point. But seemed a bit too steep for me and wasn't clear if they would have worked on harmony encore.

[juansolo]

On 8/4/2023 at 3:10 PM, Zonie said:

If I were a home-brewer, which I am not, I would not make my ROMs available if I were selling physical carts.

Where I agree with you, that only works in the US where you can buy the carts reletively cheaply. Due to ever increasing shipping and duty costs, elsewhere in the world buying from the US is becoming a very expensive affair. Sadly the order I put in for the sale at AA will probably be my last because I simply can't justfy the expenditure any more. I can however justify buying ROMs which for many of us might soon be the only economical way for us to get these games.

 

I understand the fear of the ROMs leading to piracy, but I think this community is actually very good at respecting the devs work and very little gets out there in ROM form. Doesn't stop people from dumping the carts of course if they're going to be tenatious about it, and pirates who sell clone carts are always going to find a way. As with everything to do with protecting IP, ultimately the legit user/buyer is often the one who gets boned when any sort of anti-piracy countermeasure is implemented.

 

But as with everything, the devs get the final say. It's their work, they get to say how, where and if it's sold, and for how much. I can accept that.

Edited August 5, 2023 by juansolo

[juansolo]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

I had considered buying some of the champ games roms at one point. But seemed a bit too steep for me and wasn't clear if they would have worked on harmony encore.

Champ have demo's you can download for free to try. If they work, likely the full games will too.

Edited August 5, 2023 by juansolo

[randomcat2000]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:10 AM, Zonie said:

If I were a home-brewer, which I am not, I would not make my ROMs available if I were selling physical carts. I might offer it if you buy the physical release, but as a serialized copy with an EULA that states that distribution, free or otherwise, is forbidden and may result in legal action.

Then I would not buy your homebrew.
I don't really bother with homebrew because I feel priced out of it. While carts are cool and nice collectors items, the price of a cart vs a rom and the cost of shipping overseas (especially from america) is too high to bother. Especially when there's still tons of old games out there I can get for so much cheaper. For example, I'm currently interested in the Lode Runner homebrew. There doesn't seem to be an option to buy the rom online. Lets look at how much that costs:
Game itself: (no cart only option for some reason) 60$USD -> 90$AUD, possibly more depending on exchange rates.
Shipping: shipping from the US in my experience is considerably more than shipping from any other part of the world. The atariage store doesn't seem to have shipping estimates for international shipping, so ill base this off of ebay's shipping estimates. Even cart+manual games are 35$AUD, boxed games are 60$AUD. That's about as much as a cheaper homebrew like boulder dash (cart only 40$USD -> 60$AUD).
So to buy Lode Runner, that is 150$AUD. will i get 150 dollars worth of fun out of Lode Runner? maybe. I'm sure it's high quality and made with a lot of care. But for that price I could track down a boxed copy of Lode Runner for the SG-1000/SC-3000 (my prefered version), and probably an Australian copy instead of the cheaper Japanese copies. With that money, I could buy nearly 100 copies of Lode Runner for the Famicom.
Its cheaper to buy in bulk and save on shipping, but I don't have hundreds of dollars to spend at the drop of a hat whenever there's a sale.
I think 20$USD (30$AUD) for a rom is a bit steep, but at least it is within the realm of affordability.

Edited August 9, 2023 by randomcat2000
softening, I'm not trying to criticise the hombrew developer, just make a point about cart costs and shipping. +clarified shipping costs