Does anyone actually pay $20 for ROMs?

[Mayhem]

Maybe it's because this is the AtariAge forum, or because it's specifically the 2600 scene itself, or everyone in the US has a higher budget expectation, but there's no way I'd pay $20 for a 2600 ROM. The closest I can compare to is the C64 homebrew scene that I'm firmly embedded in (hell, I review games "professionally" right now from it!), which has as many, if not more regular releases overall. Maybe it's the competition then, but assuming a game isn't free, the average price being asked for a C64 download is usually a few dollars (I say $ because a lot of releases are done through itch.io and regardless of where you are in the world, you get charged in US dollars).

 

The higher quality stuff, or games that often end up also being released on physical media may go for $8-10. The absolutely brilliant, magical massive JRPG Briley Witch was sold at a price point of $10 for example, and well worth it, SJA could quite possibly have charged more. In fact there's only ONE C64 homebrew game I'm aware of that costs $20 to download and that's Sam's Journey. AKA one of the greatest 8-bit titles of the last ten years. So with all that to compare with, when I saw the announcements that certain 2600 ROMs were going to be sold at $20 I was shaking my head and thinking nah, way too much, I'd much rather pay the $50 or thereabouts for the entire physical product instead. ROMs wise, if I did, $5-10 is much more a sweet spot of expectation.

 

As for BobAtari from the UK, sorry guys, have to agree, his touch of what you didn't perceive as humour, was in fact quite mellow light banter. Harsh but true, we are being harsh but true.

 

 

12 hours ago, MrTrust said:

The thing about $20 ROMs is, yeah, it's a reasonable price, and there will be people who pay it, but these are going to be a lot of the same people that are dropping hundreds and hundreds of dollars in the store on the Last Chance sale and paying ludicrous eBay prices on OoP homebrews.

Thing is, you can resell a physical game, I think you'd have an incredibly hard time reselling a ROM. Because well, you could sell it countless times.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

21 hours ago, tkarner said:

I always thought this was a hobby not a business. Creating games for a small handful of potential customers for a 45 year old console is a seriously poor business model. I have a hobby, skeet shooting. I'm pretty good at it and compete in tournaments. Sometimes I win some money. If I'm lucky the winnings will cover gas and lunch. I do it for enjoyment, not money. Any money that does come is a bonus.

But if someone approached you with an offer to join a pro skeet shooting tour, which would require a lot more commitment, including more time on the road away from your family, forgoing other hobbies and possibly quitting your day job, you would expect the tour operators to make it worth your while financially or you might tell them, in the words of a certain forum member, to shove it.

 

Homebrew developers create games because they enjoy it and find it challenging. They work on them, or don't work on them, when they have the time and feel like doing it between real-life obligations and other hobbies, and if they're able to make a few bucks selling copies, that's gravy. However, if someone came to them with a game idea they wanted in time for, let's say, a PRGE release, that would mean working on it on the other person's schedule at the expense of other things they want/need to do. I think in that instance you would say they deserve to be fairly compensated. That's how I interpret the $50K figure. He's not saying he expects to make that much or that he's doing it for the money, just that if he were to put a dollar value on the work that goes in to making a game, that's his estimation of what it would be.

[Crazy Climber]

9 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

 

Thing is, you can resell a physical game, I think you'd have an incredibly hard time reselling a ROM. Because well, you could sell it countless times.

This is my biggest beef with downloads. My collection is a revolving door, honestly I've just been shuffling the same $5,000 around for probably 20 years now. I can't sell ROMs, etc...

 

*edit - but like you mentioned, at a few bucks each I might be inclined to buy them. $20? No, I'll just buy the cartridge for $30+

Edited July 13, 2023 by Crazy Climber

[+Andrew Davie]

38 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

It sounds like Andrew wants to license his ROMs for distribution only under very specific and limiting conditions. We already don’t “own” modern games thanks to onerous terms of service and click-through agreements. If the same kind of nonsense takes over homebrew titles for vintage systems, I’ll just stop buying entirely.

 

I have never, not once, ever sold a binary of any of my many games or demos. Every one of my games, where I have been legally able to, has been available free of charge for download. Not one person, ever, has ever sent me any $ as a thank-you for a game/binary, ever. I'm not actually asking for money. My hypothetical $X above would leave me in the situation where YOU have had the game in hardware form to play for as long as you possibly want - forever if you wish - and if I end up buying it back, it would have cost YOU nothing, and it would have cost me the inflationary increase + postage. In other words, I'd make a significant loss.  But I bet very few people would see that. They'd just go "hey, I should be able to sell it because the market has increased!".  Houses are not artworks, and in any case they are made under the "work for hire" doctrine where you specifically pay for a service and obtain all the rights.  Games, at least mine, are artworks and not work-for-hire.  I'm really just exploring ideas here, not seriously entertaining selling games this way. As I said, I provided all my binaries totally free. I just want people to be thinking about developers/authors and their work and not just the $20 and going "they can shove it!".

I may not "understand economics" insofar as I pretty much give my stuff away for free.  But I do understand fairness.

[Jetboot Jack]

Another 2c from me...

 

I suspect no developer is trying to pay their mortgage making and selling 2600 games.

 

However I think it is fair to charge a token amount and ask people to not distribute that purchase across the internet.

 

And I honestly do not think $20 is a lot - four cups of nice coffee or a video game you'll play for days?

 

sTeVE

[+DrVenkman]

There are actually a LOT more differences in buying/selling homes than just “work for hire”, if you want to get into the legalities of it. And those legalities can literally vary by every country, state and county/municipality in the entire world, as do the principles that govern copyrighted works of art and sale/re-sale of same. I’m setting ALL of that aide to get down to brass tacks, even though I’ve definitely been in a few private homes that could objectively qualify as “art.” 

 

You create a thing. You transfer ownership of the thing. End of transaction. That’s the norm and by most measures, is as “fair” as law and society in most places can make it. The “fair” part is your price. You set that price, knowing you might be taking a risk in setting it so low that someone can take advantage of changing conditions later and re-sell for more than they paid. The price you set also contains a risk that you are setting it too high, such that few if any will buy your thing, thus rendering all your time, skill and effort worthless. Conversely the buyer takes the same kinds of risks. If they buy at too high a price, they deprive themselves of the opportunity to buy other, different things that perhaps they might appreciate or enjoy more. If they buy at too low a price, perhaps their enjoyment of your thing is diluted because of a perceived lack of quality or value in connection with the low price. In a nutshell, this is the basis for the Anglo-American “bargain in fact” framework for contract and property law. If you want to stop scalping in principle and as a matter of course, then either charge the scalper’s price to begin with and limit your own volume of things to sell, or - as creator of the thing - flood the market with inexhaustible supply. No one would pay $100 for a thing if the seller is still making and selling new things for $10. 

That’s reality. You can claim reality isn’t fair because of X, Y or Z … and for some factors I won’t necessarily disagree. But on the whole, this argument definitely goes down as a “first world problem” if there ever was one.

[+splendidnut]

15 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

As for BobAtari from the UK, sorry guys, have to agree, his touch of what you didn't perceive as humour, was in fact quite mellow light banter. Harsh but true, we are being harsh but true.

He seemed quite enraged when people didn't understand his "humour".  He made some flippant remarks about American "hate-culture" and then compared this thread to Twitter.  He also wanted to dissuade discussion of fairness and instead only wanted a simple answer to the question: "Does anyone actually pay $20 for ROMs?".  I thought Brits enjoyed having hardcore discussions on things... or is that something that only occurs at the pub?

 

To borrow a phrase from him, "you Brits are a weird bunch."

 

 

[+Andrew Davie]

40 minutes ago, Mayhem said:

As for BobAtari from the UK, sorry guys, have to agree, his touch of what you didn't perceive as humour, was in fact quite mellow light banter. Harsh but true, we are being harsh but true.

 

Didn't offend me, but I'm an Aussie and we're used to the Poms whinging (assuming he's a Pom). I think he just did a poor job of reading the room.

[+johnnywc]

22 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said:

 

Didn't offend me, but I'm an Aussie and we're used to the Poms whinging (assuming he's a Pom). I think he just did a poor job of reading the room.

I'm American, and the jab was actually directed towards me, and although I was taken aback a bit I found it more humorous than offensive.  (although to be fair, I was voted Most Sarcastic, Class of '86 so I've dealt out my fair share of jabs  ).

 

I'm glad @BobAtari brought this up though, as this entire thread (well, most of it ) is a goldmine of market research for ROM pricing, discounts, bundles, etc.  Thanks everyone for the suggestions and feedback!  

[glazball]

21 hours ago, RamrodHare said:

Now, back to the topic of roms. As I said before, I can't afford them or carts, but this thread has angered and hurt me so much, that I'm tempted to skip a months worth of one of the medications that keep me alive to to buy roms from the people that keep ammy hobby fresh and fun, like Champ Games, Andrew, and Albert, to name a few. I'm not even kidding. This life is short, do what makes you happy and be kind to those around you. If you dont, You'll regret it when they're gone.

I just needed to highlight this, because this is one of the most idiotic things I've ever read on these forums.

 

@RamrodHare please understand I'm not attacking you, just the idea that you would forgo live-saving medications (or even consider it) to buy Atari ROMs.  That is absolutely insane, and I hope you were just being hyperbolic to make your point.  We all want to support homebrewers however we can, but please take care of yourself.

[RamrodHare]

1 hour ago, glazball said:

I just needed to highlight this, because this is one of the most idiotic things I've ever read on these forums.

 

@RamrodHare please understand I'm not attacking you, just the idea that you would forgo live-saving medications (or even consider it) to buy Atari ROMs.  That is absolutely insane, and I hope you were just being hyperbolic to make your point.  We all want to support homebrewers however we can, but please take care of yourself.

I didn't  take it as an attack, I understand what you are saying. As for what I said, I don't see it as idiotic. I do Thank you for your concern for me, it means a lot. But, when it's my time to leave, that medication isn't  goind to make a bit of difference.  (The rest of the post is not directed at you.)

 

People are flat out disrespecting the developers on this forum. Over what, a few dollars? $20 barely buys a cheap meal.. I can no longer eat any food I like. Think about the price of fuel now, do I find happiness in driving around? NO, it's  painful just getting to my car. One of my medications costs OVER $800 a month. Does it actually do anything? I sure can't see any improvements. I don't  get any happiness out any of those things.

 

Now, consider that some of the complainers are willing to spend $15+ at Starbucks. Once you drink it, it's gone. You have that $20 rom to play forever. Stop being so entitled. The developers who made the games don't deserve being told their work isn't  valuable enough to warrant their money.

 

No one knows how much time they have left here. I'd rather show others that someone cares about their time and effort by giving them some money. It's only $20, not a million. I'd enjoy the roms, but at this point, I don't care if I get anything. I just want to show the people who make games that there ARE people who appreciate them. That would make me happy, roms or not. In the end, we all pass away. The money doesn't  matter. People should do what they can for others and stop crying about $20 being too much.  How do you REALLY want to be remembered when you're gone?  

 

I'm through with this thread. I'm putting it on my ignore list. It's too stressful for me. If you have something nice to say, please feel free to send me a message. If you don't like what I had to say, then I'm sorry. Don't message me to complain. I won't answer you.

[MrTrust]

4 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

Not one person, ever, has ever sent me any $ as a thank-you for a game/binary, ever.

 

Do you put your games on itch.io?  It makes it really easy to tip.  I would definitely do it more often if more brewers made it clear they were taking tips and where to send them.  

 

I'm not such a big fan of the free ROMs thing.  Don't get me wrong, I like getting them and I've played many over the years, but there should at least be a sort of gentleman's agreement that everyone at least throws a few bucks into the pot if they're going to take advantage of the generosity of the homebrewers.  

[+x=usr(1536)]

7 hours ago, Andrew Davie said:

Didn't offend me, but I'm an Aussie and we're used to the Poms whinging (assuming he's a Pom). I think he just did a poor job of reading the room.

Irish here, currently living in the US.  Have also lived in different parts of the UK and a couple of other countries as well.

 

Agreed on reading the room.  The other part of that: you don't just walk into the room and start off slinging insults, no matter how innocuous the intentions behind them may be.  This is particularly true when going across cultural lines where what is and is not considered acceptable (linguistically speaking) can be massively different, and intent is further obfuscated thanks to the Internet.

 

Walking into a pub and greeting friends with, "well, would you look at this shower of c****," isn't likely to cause any grief.  Walking into the same pub, going up to the bar, then looking around at complete strangers and saying the same thing may just result in a solid beating depending on the mood of the place.

[BobAtari]

On 7/12/2023 at 6:15 PM, RamrodHare said:

this thread has angered and hurt me so much, that I'm tempted to skip a months worth of one of the medications that keep me alive

Dear God above. Some people REALLY need to get a grip.

[BobAtari]

8 hours ago, splendidnut said:

He seemed quite enraged when people didn't understand his "humour".

 

The word you're looking for is "amused".

[Cebus Capucinis]

Cool! You're back. I'm confused. Do I shove it first, then suck the butt, in order to remove the stuck object? Or do I suck the butt first out of hygiene concerns, then shove it? Or ultimately is that a sort of "whatever whets your whistle" sort of thing?

 

Let's just say "a friend" may have a jammed object right now, and time might be getting short, so I should probably get this right (or admit I, I MEAN "MY FRIEND" already got it wrong, perhaps).

[MrTrust]

5 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Walking into a pub and greeting friends with, "well, would you look at this shower of c****," isn't likely to cause any grief.  Walking into the same pub, going up to the bar, then looking around at complete strangers and saying the same thing may just result in a solid beating depending on the mood of the place.

 

This is interesting.  I used to work the door in a dive bar and had to break up my fair share of fights, and in my experience, and "I'm better than you" attitude is way more likely to get you knocked on your ass than being too familiar.  Of course, when you've been let to know the crowd ain't amused and you keep laying it on, Bob, you can't really complain if you do get decked.

 

"Reading the room" should not be a license for the Room to actually act like c****.  There's nothing wrong with, or disrespectful about the guy's post aside from the one dumb remark.  It's an interesting and provocative question.  Yes, he should at least do a pro forma mea culpa for the one remark, but then again, what difference would it make?  You can qualify your statement 18 ways to Sunday: you understand the frustration homebrewers have, you understand it's a fair price, that it's not unreasonable, that it isn't greedy, that you know they're not getting rich off of it, that they're not undeserving of the money, etc.  Doesn't matter how far backwards you bend over, The Room is still going to read everything you say in the most uncharitable, exaggerated, histrionic light possible (I'm not saying that you, personally, do this).

 

I have yet to come across a $20 ROM that I've felt compelled to buy, so obviously, I don't respect Andrew or any other homebrewer and I think they owe me their labor or they don't deserve any reward for their work.  Also, did I know how much it costs to get the boxes made and the manuals printed?  Did I realize the programmer doesn't get the majority of the price of a new cartridge?  Did I not how that it takes work to make new Atari games?  Have I not heard of economy of scale?  Why would I disrespect and upset and hurt the community like this?

 

Does The Room really not believe it has a habit of overreacting to things like this?  Does The Room not understand it's insulting to be talked down to as if everything you say was intended to be interpreted in the most superficial and boorish way imaginable?

[Cebus Capucinis]

I don't think The Room really understands anything beyond "How's your sex life" and throwing footballs, frankly.

[BobAtari]

10 hours ago, Cebus Capucinis said:

Cool! You're back. I'm confused. Do I shove it first, then suck the butt, in order to remove the stuck object? Or do I suck the butt first out of hygiene concerns, then shove it? Or ultimately is that a sort of "whatever whets your whistle" sort of thing?

 

Let's just say "a friend" may have a jammed object right now, and time might be getting short, so I should probably get this right (or admit I, I MEAN "MY FRIEND" already got it wrong, perhaps).

Hey man, I'm not here to yuck your - your friend's - yum. Do whatever feels right for you them.

[BobAtari]

6 hours ago, MrTrust said:

Doesn't matter how far backwards you bend over, The Room is still going to read everything you say in the most uncharitable, exaggerated, histrionic light possible

Yep, precisely this.

 

I mean, when this:

 

Quote

I know everyone has strong opinions about pricing for retro homebrew - and if it needs saying I fully support the right of creators to ask whatever price they see fit for their creations and I don't believe I have any right to get them for less - but does anyone actually pay $20 for a digital ROM?

 

I'm not asking "do you think it's a fair price?", because fairness is an inherently subjective concept and not really applicable to non-necessity items anyway. I'm asking if you put your money where your mouth is and genuinely hand over the real dollars in real life.

 

(I don't. I've paid $10 many a time, but that's my limit. I'd love to buy the entire Champ Games 2600 catalogue at that price, but at $20 a pop they can shove it.)

 

Just curious. Show of hands?

 

...rapidly spirals into an ACTUAL THREAT OF SUICIDE:

 

Quote

this thread has angered and hurt me so much, that I'm tempted to skip a months worth of one of the medications that keep me alive to to buy roms

 

...it's just slightly possible that some people are perhaps being maybe the tiniest bit oversensitive about debating the price of homebrew videogames.

[BobAtari]

This, incidentally:

 

Quote

What incentive is there for homebrew programmers who might, for example, spend years developing a title and then perhaps see a few hundred dollars total in-pocket from sales of that title - and subsequently see individual copies of the game selling for $1000 

 

is an extremely bizarre form of entitlement. Almost all of you, as far as I can tell, live in the world's most capitalist - and aggressively proud of it - country. (Not a claim of superiority, mine isn't much different.) And in a capitalist country, LITERALLY THE ENTIRE ECONOMY ON WHICH YOUR WHOLE SOCIETY AND WAY OF LIFE IS BASED is premised on the idea of selling stuff for more than you paid for it. The producer charges more than the worker, the wholesaler charges more than the producer, the retailer charges more than the wholesaler, etc.

 

And breaking news: if you create extreme rarity of a commodity by only ever making 20 or 50 of it (for entirely reasonable reasons), at some point someone is likely to want one so much that they'll pay the current owner over the odds to get it. That's the free market for you. That's literally how your entire country/ideology functions. You just don't get to sulk about that. You sold the commodity, you were paid the price you asked, it's not yours any more, and what the new owner does with it - including selling it on for a profit - ain't none o' yo' damn bizness. It's between them and the person they're selling their property to.

 

(If you're that bothered, as I think someone might have already suggested, keep 10 extra copies that you don't sell straight away and then flog them one at a time a few years later when the price is high.)

 

I mean, sheesh.

Edited July 14, 2023 by BobAtari

[MrTrust]

6 hours ago, Cebus Capucinis said:

I don't think The Room really understands anything beyond "How's your sex life" and throwing footballs, frankly.

 

Do you understand life?  DO YOU!?

 

YOU ARE TEARING ME APART CEBUS!!!!

[+Andrew Davie]

3 hours ago, BobAtari said:

This, incidentally:

is an extremely bizarre form of entitlement. Almost all of you, as far as I can tell, live in the world's most capitalist

 

I do not live in the USA.  And in my country, artworks on-sold come with legal requirement to pay a percentage of sale to original artist.

I consider my work... art. Whether you do or not. 

[+Andrew Davie]

8 hours ago, MrTrust said:

"Reading the room" should not be a license for the Room to actually act like c****. 

 

Since I can't delete this message, I have edited to withdraw my response to the above.

I'm gonna bow out of this discussion as I've said my piece.  If you want me to see a response please PM me. 

[bluswimmer]

My game Cannonhead Clash has made $21 from a pay-what-you-want model on itch.io. I assume that number would be a tad higher if, say, it were priced at a flat five dollars, since the vast majority just elect to download it without paying (not that there's anything wrong with that). Beyond that I don't really have much insight.