Castlevania 64 and Legacy of Darkness

[Razzie.P]

The Castlevania chatter in this thread made me want to revisit C64 and play through Legacy of Darkness (for the first time).  I never had LOD in real time way back when, but have owned it for several years now and never really played it other than to make sure it worked when I bought it.

 

Finished C64 over the weekend and it was pretty much the same as I remembered.  Took a wee bit to become acclimated with the controls, but once that clicked, it's just such a unique, amazing game to me.  A lot of the pacing made it feel like a really early, primitive Dark Souls kind of experience.  Or Blade of Darkness, if y'all remember that one.  Happy to report I didn't experience any of the "this is a turd" issues that have been mentioned earlier in that thread.  😁  Still love this game.  It was one of only 2 games on N64 that didn't leave me disappointed in real time back in the day.  Conker's Bad Fur Day was the other.  (there were a few more that I discovered later, but those were the only 2 in real time)

 

Started LOD and am a few hours into the first character's campaign.  One thing I noticed really quick -- even if you have the expansion pack, I'd suggest you do not play in "high resolution" mode.  That was an exercise in frustration due to frame rate issues and missed/delayed inputs.  Switched to low res and all's been great other than some odd bugs and glitches (like platforms with spiked on one side not turning properly.)

 

Loving the game so far and pretty excited to see what, if anything, has changed playing through with the 2 OG characters.

 

Anyone else have a lot of love for these, or in the "they're clunky, unplayable turds" camp?

 

[SlidellMan]

I've played CV64 when I was 15, and while it had its flaws; I liked it. Three years later, I played Legacy of Darkness, and while it took some time to get used to what I had to deal with, I also liked it. It has been twenty years since I played LoD, and I think it's high time that both of the N64 Castlevania games were taken off the hook.

[Austin]

On 8/16/2023 at 1:30 PM, Razzie.P said:

Loving the game so far and pretty excited to see what, if anything, has changed playing through with the 2 OG characters.

If you enjoy the first then I think you'll be in for a treat. There are more story beats/cutscenes with Cornell's campaign (as you likely experienced with the new intro), new levels, new gimmicks and many of the existing level layouts from the first game have been completely altered (like the Duel Tower). There are some quality of life improvements (like sub-weapons becoming upgraded/more powerful when you pick up multiples of the same type) and Cornell's wolf transformation is ridiculously over powered, which is fun. I originally didn't care for the new level layouts, but now I appreciate them and that aspect makes both games games worth keeping around.

[Wayler]

Ah yes, the N64 era, where everything had to go 3D because it was the future. Some very good games came out of it but mostly from franchises that already had exploratory nature in their blood, so the switch to wide open landscapes wasn't too strange.

 

I don't think Castlevania fit into that new 3D mold very well. For me, Castlevania was always about tight action with a slice of platforming dipped deep into a gruesome horror theme. While I enjoyed the adventures of Mario, Link and Goemon on the N64, I totally skipped C64 because the change seemed too jarring, roaming about through empty landscapes is not what I expect from a Castlevania title. I don't quite even know why we still have that cart from back in the day, I don't have any recollections of ever playing it. Probably my dad bought it for himself, as he loved Super Castlevania IV but never saw him play it either. Anyway, it was only a little later that Metroidvanias came along and showed how exploration and Castlevania could be married together happily ever after but that required going back to good old 2D.

 

Maybe if I had given it a change back then, I could have a more favorable nostalgic-haze look to it. But looking at the gameplay footage now, it just seems very janky, slow and muddled. And so ugly. Even though there are games that I love for the N64, it has never been a console for me to get into new games that I did not play as child/teen. Unlike the SNES where I can easily pick up something new and enjoy it. The graphical infancy of the 3D era is just too much of a barrier.

[homerj]

I never played LoD that i can recall but really liked C64.  It was janky & not all that attractive but something about it hooked me enough to play it all the way through.  I don’t know if i could go back to it after 25 years though. 

[roots.genoa]

8 hours ago, Wayler said:

but that required going back to good old 2D.

Metroidvanias can be done in 3D though, like Metroid Prime or even Zelda games that follow a similar structure.

[Wayler]

17 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Metroidvanias can be done in 3D though, like Metroid Prime or even Zelda games that follow a similar structure.

Very true. Metroid and Zelda have magnificently moved to the realm of 3D Metroidvanias. But both are also already steeped in exploration and traversal in 2D form. 

 

With Metroid's high tech, you don't have the limitation of constructing a realistic and functioning world, you can just go up & down freely. With Zelda, the exploration and progress comes with new gadgets to widen the play area. I don't think Castlevania is suited for those approaches and you would have to try something different.

 

But then comes my main problem that 3D Metroidvania requires more open space and I think that is a detriment to a Castlevania experience. Maybe a horror game style would work better. A compacted play area with tight spaces & rooms but also a possibility to reach new locales. Like Eternal Darkness feat Dracula, or something. 

[jerseystyle]

I was a big fan of both games. They didn’t feel much like the 2D Castlevanias but I enjoyed them as solid 3D adventure games. 

[Austin]

3 hours ago, Wayler said:

With Metroid's high tech, you don't have the limitation of constructing a realistic and functioning world, you can just go up & down freely. With Zelda, the exploration and progress comes with new gadgets to widen the play area. I don't think Castlevania is suited for those approaches and you would have to try something different.

 

But then comes my main problem that 3D Metroidvania requires more open space and I think that is a detriment to a Castlevania experience. Maybe a horror game style would work better. A compacted play area with tight spaces & rooms but also a possibility to reach new locales. Like Eternal Darkness feat Dracula, or something. 

I do feel 3D Castlevania tends to work better in tight spaces. The 64 games actually have a lot of those. Or, if there are big open rooms, the path forward is often a way littered with traps or with not a lot of wiggle room (like tight platforms).

 

They did try the "3D Metroidvania" with the PS2-era games, Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness, but I don't think they really nailed what they were aiming for. Lament was more of a hub structure with repetitious room design (one big square room after another, for about 90% of the game), while Curse actually had a fully connected world design, its rooms were way too open and barren. The 64 games on the other hand are level-by-level affairs, with each stage having its own gimmick. Some have some puzzle solving to do or switches to flip, while others are straightforward, action-focused levels (like the aforementioned Duel Tower). It's a fun hybrid when you get the hang of it. And you mentioned, "maybe a horror style game would work better", that's exactly what they are. More atmospheric and "spooky" overall and it works pretty well.

 

It's actually interesting looking at the various 3D Castlevanias and seeing where the series would go with Lords of Shadow during the 360/PS3 era. That one would go back to a level-by-level structure like the 64 games, eschewing any sort of non-linear, "Metroidvania" type of gameplay.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Austin

[Razzie.P]

I finished Legacy of Darkness with the first 2 characters and have started Reinhardt on Hard now that it's unlocked. 

 

Cornell's playthrough was really awesome, but I didn't feel as much like Castlevania to me as Reinhardt.  I'm sure it's a "whip thang."   Henry's was ok, but I'm not a big fan of the whole "easter egg hunt" vibe that it had.  But he was packing heat, so kinda neat to play as a shooter.

 

Yeah, these games are ugly and cumbersome, but I think it wears it well.  It helps it feel drabby, unpleasant, and unsettling, which really seems to add to the atmosphere and mood that I feel is right for the setting.  It's that same uncomfortable "I don't wanna be here, but I must press on" vibe that later made Dark Souls so special to me.