What are the chances of mylar failing during shipping? Receiving unworking unit from AtariAge member

[+mytek]

20 hours ago, MacRorie said:

On a more probable note, the mylar is held into place by pegs in the keyboard case. It is my recollection that those holes are where the pegs are located. If it was forced into place, it could have resulted in damaged during an install attempt 

 

THIS IS ALL CONJECTURE ON MY PART and should be taken with a very small grain of salt. 

Well I did happen to have an XEGS keyboard that had flaky keys so I thought what the heck let's do a little investigation and also see if I could use the suspect mylar to fix my XEGS.

 

XEGS Keyboard

 

Dissected

 

Cups

 

New Mylar set in Place (notice the torn and punctured section)

 

Back Together with New Mylar

 

Passed Keyboard Test

 

I'm afraid we still have a mystery as to what caused the punctures. As can be seen in the image below, there are no raised pins or pegs anywhere near where the damage occurred. And that particular area of damage has a fairly long rip in the clear plastic. But luckily since it was well clear of either traces or pads the mylar remains fully functional.

 

 

On the plus side I have fully functioning keyboards on both the 65XE I just purchased, as well as an XEGS that used to have malfunctioning keys. Win - Win 👍

 

As to what caused the punctures in that new mylar - I don't think we'll ever know.

[flashjazzcat]

Have you tried putting the Mylar in backwards/upside down to see if the mysterious holes line up with any screws that way?

[+mytek]

Actually that's a very good idea Jon. The only problem is what's left of my motivation today. The idea of undoing all those screws once again makes me very tired 🥱

 

Maybe later this week I'll do that if someone doesn't beat me to it first.

[Overange]

18 minutes ago, mytek said:

Actually that's a very good idea Jon. The only problem is what's left of my motivation today. The idea of undoing all those screws once again makes me very tired 🥱

 

Maybe later this week I'll do that if someone doesn't beat me to it first.

Yeah its a lot of screws, as well as the RSI kicking in and when one pings off, you spend ages trying to find the little bucker  

[+mytek]

@MacRorie has laid to rest what the holes in the keyboard mylar really are, and what would have been required to make them, in this edited previous post he made.

 

 

[+mytek]

So in the end this all worked out for everyone except the original seller, who lost $30 from that sale.

 

The original buyer probably got slightly more than his money back, considering the asking price of the two carts he sold me, and was completely restored on the computer and mylar purchases 100%.

 

I got a very clean and working 65XE at what I consider a very good price, only requiring a quick and easy buffing of the fingers on the original keyboard mylar. And as an added bonus I also got a mylar replacement for my XEGS keyboard that luckily was not hampered by the damage it incurred.

 

And although I'm pretty sure everyone by now realizes that the damage to that keyboard mylar was not the doing of TBA, unless someone steps forward with the details, all we have is conjecture.

 

Case closed

[AMenard]

47 minutes ago, mytek said:

So in the end this all worked out for everyone except the original seller, who lost $30 from that sale.

 

The original buyer probably got slightly more than his money back, considering the asking price of the two carts he sold me, and was completely restored on the computer and mylar purchases 100%.

 

I got a very clean and working 65XE at what I consider a very good price, only requiring a quick and easy buffing of the fingers on the original keyboard mylar. And as an added bonus I also got a mylar replacement for my XEGS keyboard that luckily was not hampered by the damage it incurred.

 

And although I'm pretty sure everyone by now realizes that the damage to that keyboard mylar was not the doing of TBA, unless someone steps forward with the details, all we have is conjecture.

 

Case closed

The only thing that bug me with the US 65XE I had was the lack of PBI that the european model had. Never understood this.

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, AMenard said:

The only thing that bug me with the US 65XE I had was the lack of PBI that the european model had. Never understood this.

Yeah it is kinda strange. But also look at the XL series where they left out the chroma signal on the A/V jack. In that case it couldn't have been a financially motivated decision.

 

As for not including the ECI port, that could have been seen as cost savings. You have to consider that Atari never sold any accessory that could have used it anyway. And very few 3rd parties did BITD.

[reifsnyderb]

2 minutes ago, mytek said:

Yeah it is kinda strange. But also look at the XL series where they left out the chroma signal on the A/V jack. In that case it couldn't have been a financially motivated decision.

 

As for not including the ECI port, that could have been seen as cost savings. You have to consider that Atari never sold any accessory that could have used it anyway. And very few 3rd parties did BITD.

The PBI was practically free as it's just an edge connector.  However, Atari's with the PBI had the separate cartridge port with the aluminum doors.  That leads me to conclude Atari went to the cartridge port/ECI, in the back of the unit, to save money.  This, of course, added a small extra cost to keep the ECI port.  So, the ultimate savings for the 65XE was basically to eliminate the cartridge doors.  This still doesn't explain why Atari omitted the /EXTENB signal from the ECI thereby creating more interfacing problems.

[ACML]

2 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

This, of course, added a small extra cost to keep the ECI port.  So, the ultimate savings for the 65XE was basically to eliminate the cartridge doors.  This still doesn't explain why Atari omitted the /EXTENB signal from the ECI thereby creating more interfacing problems.

Someone on AA (can't recall) said it best in a single sentence. 

 

 "The 400/800 was Atari's last good decision and it appears to have been a complete accident"

 

Someone, maybe Ray Kassar, made the fateful decision to change direction and make the 2600 follow-on a home computer to compete with Apple.  Incredibly smart and gifted people made an amazing machine ahead of its time.

 

ANTIC and GTIA were the predecessor to video cards (Nvidia and AMD)

 

POKEY was the predecessor to sound boards (Sound Blaster)

 

SIO was the predecessor to USB.  First plug and play.

 

Atari got there in ~1978!!  

 

Had those same people (i.e. Jay Miner and company) been allowed to develop the next big thing, I think we would have seen something even more amazing (i.e. Amiga like or better).  With Warner's management, Atari Corporate and the Tramiels, Atari didn't stand a chance.  If Warner hadn't bought Atari, there might have never been a home computer, just a 5200.  We'll never know.  One thing is for sure, something magical happened in Sunnyvale in the late 70's.  A group of the right people at the right place and at the right time made an amazing home computer using 1970's tech.

 

[Dopeyman06]

On 8/30/2023 at 2:45 PM, Stephen said:

Not according to documentation I've found online!

So this method is incorrect???

 

[mickster]

13 hours ago, ACML said:

 

 

Had those same people (i.e. Jay Miner and company) been allowed to develop the next big thing, I think we would have seen something even more amazing (i.e. Amiga like or better).  With Warner's management, Atari Corporate and the Tramiels, Atari didn't stand a chance.  If Warner hadn't bought Atari, there might have never been a home computer, just a 5200.  We'll never know.  One thing is for sure, something magical happened in Sunnyvale in the late 70's.  A group of the right people at the right place and at the right time made an amazing home computer using 1970's tech.

 

 

 

The problem with that would still have been Commodore and their cheap computer prices.  Instead of 8-bit computers being a solution to all computer problems (business/education/entertainment), they pretty much became glorified video game consoles with the most important aspect being the race to sub $100 products.  While the 400/800 was a great product, it  did not get the market saturation to really be a big player in the final outcome.  IBM was  getting up to speed , Apple had education locked down, and Commodore had price/performance locked down.  Atari's second computer would and should have been the Amiga, but it would have still failed to become a market leader due to its price and placement in the market.   If Tramiel would have stayed with Commodore, he would have been able to make the Atari ST type of computer even cheaper since he would have had MOS as a resource for all the chips.

 

I love the atari 8-bit because it really was a programmable video game machine.  The problem was, once you understand the tech, it really didn't have any place to grow.  All any company could do with it was make it cheaper and re package it.

[_The Doctor__]

The Atari 800 was very expandable right on down to the personality card, It was far more than a programmable video game machine. It had plenty of places to go and grow. The Atari held it's place in many venues, factories, production companies, visual aid, power plants (some nuclear). I'd say a bit more research might be in order before making such a statement. The machine was modified and expanded for much more than most people know.

[reifsnyderb]

39 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

The Atari 800 was very expandable right on down to the personality card, It was far more than a programmable video game machine. It had plenty of places to go and grow. The Atari held it's place in many venues, factories, production companies, visual aid, power plants (some nuclear). I'd say a bit more research might be in order before making such a statement. The machine was modified and expanded for much more than most people know.

I completely agree!  In many respects, the 800 was the most powerful of all of the Atari computers.

[donjn]

delete...

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by donjn

[donjn]

22 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

I completely agree!  In many respects, the 800 was the most powerful of all of the Atari computers.

The Atari 800XL has always seemed so well-built too.

In general, I was always a Commodore fan and had that in my teens, but the past 5 years or so have realized that I prefer Atari 8-bit computers for that pokey chip and the massive color differences.

I cant go back to Commodore now, which has the one puke light green color for all of their greens.

[reifsnyderb]

3 minutes ago, donjn said:

The Atari 800XL has always seemed so well-built too.

In general, I was always a Commodore fan and had that in my teens, but the past 5 years or so have realized that I prefer Atari 8-bit computers for that pokey chip and the massive color differences.

I cant go back to Commodore now, which has the one puke light green color for all of their greens.

The 800XL was very good and my first computer.  It's not quite as easy to upgrade as the 800.  However, had Atari released the 1090XL the 600XL and 800XL would have had the potential to be more a much more powerful machines.

[mickster]

2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

The Atari 800 was very expandable right on down to the personality card, It was far more than a programmable video game machine. It had plenty of places to go and grow. The Atari held it's place in many venues, factories, production companies, visual aid, power plants (some nuclear). I'd say a bit more research might be in order before making such a statement. The machine was modified and expanded for much more than most people know.

 

 

But not in enough size of market to grab hold and allow future more powerful machines to be made.

[Geister]

 

1 hour ago, mickster said:

 

 

But not in enough size of market to grab hold and allow future more powerful machines to be made.

We'll never know because Atari never finished the Peripheral Expansion Bus, so we'll never know where it could have gone.  The IBM system started with a 8/16 bit system and got several bus upgrades over the years.  It later got 32 bit and 64 bit CPUs.  Who know what WDC CPUs the Atari could have got if Atari had stuck around to try the 65C816 and later the 32 bit version that WDC was working on.  Now WDC continues the 8 bit systems for their use in Control Systems because nobody continued development with what they had to offer.  Maybe in some alternate universe Atari would have built some 64-bit computers based on an extended 8-bit architecture. If they had worked with Jay Miner, maybe a more Amiga-like system would have been the result and much sooner than Commodore was able to do it.

 

We'll never know. 

[mickster]

1 hour ago, Geister said:

 

We'll never know because Atari never finished the Peripheral Expansion Bus, so we'll never know where it could have gone.  The IBM system started with a 8/16 bit system and got several bus upgrades over the years.  It later got 32 bit and 64 bit CPUs.  Who know what WDC CPUs the Atari could have got if Atari had stuck around to try the 65C816 and later the 32 bit version that WDC was working on.  Now WDC continues the 8 bit systems for their use in Control Systems because nobody continued development with what they had to offer.  Maybe in some alternate universe Atari would have built some 64-bit computers based on an extended 8-bit architecture. If they had worked with Jay Miner, maybe a more Amiga-like system would have been the result and much sooner than Commodore was able to do it.

 

We'll never know. 

 

We do know.  Just look at the rest of the industry.   The computer that Jay Minor made (regardless of either Atari or Commodore making it) would have had the same result.  Extreme high price (mostly due to RAM prices at the time), poor support (compared to Apple and IBM), poor dealer networking, poor backward compatibility with 8 bit machines.  There is a very good reason that IBM (and Apple barely) made it and no one else did.  It has nothing to do with any particular tech.  It comes down to large companies with gobs of advertising, support, software, and money to keep pushing product until it becomes a standard.  If you look into any other computer company, most of them were basically going broke and were just hoping that the current product would be a 'home run'.  

 

I love Atari stuff.  I have been interested in the computers since 400/800 release.  I can also tell you that through the 80's, that when it comes to books, magazines, local stores, user groups, bbs's, software houses, 3rd party publishers, etc......   Atari was  minor compared to IBM, Apple, and Commodore.  Never was the Atari section the biggest section.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

Depends on where you lived, we had Atari in the public libraries around many parts of the country, along with a software library and printers. Atari has always existed in one form or another, many other companies ceased to exist entirely. How does that square with whats being said... Like it or not, it has survived in one form or another and some of the ones you are pushing as winners no longer exist at all.

Edited September 7, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+mytek]

This topic sure veered off the path and went down a rabbit hole

 

All good, but I don't think I've seen something go this far off course in a while. Anyway no sense in stopping it since the original topic did seem to come to a conclusion. However with the title as it is, I don't think a search will ever find this discussion at a future time

[mickster]

14 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Depends on where you lived, we had Atari in the public libraries around many parts of the country, along with a software library and printers. Atari has always existed in one form or another, many other companies ceased to exist entirely. How does that square with whats being said... Like it or not, it has survived in one form or another and some of the ones you are pushing as winners no longer exist at all.

First of all:

 

This discussion is all meant in good fun, I mean no disrespect to anyone.  I completely understand with anyone disagreeing with my point of view on the subject and welcome all points of view.  Regardless of market share, I have loved Atari computers for 40 years.

 

With that said:

 

I wouldn't say that Atari has survived.  It died in the early 90's right along with Commodore. The Atari name has survived, but that has nothing to do with the home computer line.  I am also not saying Atari computers were not used, because all computers were used somewhere. It also has nothing to do about 'liking it or not', its just what actually happened.  What I am saying is, regardless of how the Atari line would have been expanded or upgraded, its death was still going to be about the same time.  Atari computers did not have the market share, dealer support, company support, money , acceptance, or killer app that made it good enough to continue.   Same thing happened in home video games.  In the early 90's a few companies released consoles that had both good and bad points.  In the end, those companies could not compete with the huge juggernauts of Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo.  The advertising budgets alone of those big companies is HUGE.  That is why all those smaller video game consoles died.  Not because a console deck has 2 or 4 meg of ram, or if it has a single speed or double speed cdrom. A product doesn't survive on the merits of the product alone, but the company that can afford to support it.

 

Or to put it another way:

 

Apple was everywhere due to early release and school programs that had that product in front of kids and adults. Apple really was able to stick their product in front of kids until they went to college.  This was a huge deal at the time.  I don't know what it cost them, but it definitely was the best advertising a company could do with their product.

 

IBM was everywhere because companies are not interested in playing star raiders, they want to buy 'real computers' from big companies not mom and pop independent stores.  Never did I see multiple stores (big or small) selling Atari computers in business districts.  Yes, I could go to Sears in the mall and look at Atari product, but I don't think that is where company IT guys were buying inventory and payroll computer systems from.

 

Commodore 64 was everywhere because Jack Tramiel truly understood that price is everything with the product he was selling to his customers. He saw the mark up that the other companies were doing and knew that he had an open area of the market to exploit. 

 

The rest of the computers at the time were out there, but they were not 'everywhere' .  They were minor players compared to the 'big three'.  

 

Oh and to get this thread back on topic.  Yes, sometimes the keyboard mylar needs to be replaced.  😁😁

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

Apple computers died as well, it was the iPOD and laters Phones that helped the Apple computer portion continue to exist, the VCS800 is a computer as well, if we were to go by that logic.