The new Atari 2600+ w/HDMI out and 2600/7800 support

[Thomas Jentzsch]

1 hour ago, Dionoid said:

However I assume these new cartridges (Berzerk Enhanced and Mr. Run and Jump) are NTSC, so colors won't display correctly when playing on a original Atari 2600 PAL machine. But still playable, of course.

 

They could do PAL-60 versions easily. But then you have to tell Stella that it is a PAL game. And the question is: how?

[mactari]

On 8/22/2023 at 1:08 PM, 5-11under said:

I don't think there's any protection with Kickstarter.

Just those that have “if we don’t get enough preorders that we end up canceling this thing, you don’t get charged.”

 

Unrelated: I still don’t get how ARM carts work.  

 

Edit: Now I get it. Just had to read Alex’ post following yours. It’s not so much the ARM but coding up an emulator to know what to do with an ARMless ROM, so to speak. It’s “yet another bankswitching (or whatever) convention”.

 

A real 2600 would be fine, but that’s why ROM dumper inherently === less compatibility. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by mactari

[Atariboy]

On 8/31/2023 at 10:32 AM, zzip said:

If there's one USB port that's used for power, how is it going to be used for upgrades at the same time?   Hubs take power from the host device, not feed power to it,   Unless there''s some USB-C magic that I'm not aware of?

You use an OTG cable.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Atariboy

[+Defender_2600]

6 hours ago, Dionoid said:

The product details section shows this:

However I assume these new cartridges (Berzerk Enhanced and Mr. Run and Jump) are NTSC, so colors won't display correctly when playing on a original Atari 2600 PAL machine. But still playable, of course.

 

 

4 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

They could do PAL-60 versions easily. But then you have to tell Stella that it is a PAL game. And the question is: how?

 

I was wondering the same things. So this brings us to several important questions about the new cartridges (Berzerk Enhanced and Mr. Run and Jump) and Atari 2600+ consoles for sale in Europe.

 

- Will the new cartridges sold in Europe be PAL50, PAL60 or NTSC? Or will these new cartridges be region free (as for example the cartridges manufactured by Retro-bit for the NES, SNES and Genesis)?

- And, will the Atari 2600+ consoles sold in Europe be compatible with PAL50, PAL60 and NTSC cartridges? Or will European consoles only support PAL50 cartridges (which would be a disappointment)?

 

In Europe many of us, in addition to PAL50 and PAL60 cartridges, also own a NTSC console and NTSC cartridges, and it is expected that the Atari 2600+ can operate in both PAL50/60 and NTSC modes (as for example the THEC64 console does).

 

I think it's important to get some official answers to these relevant questions. Thank you.

[alex_79]

6 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

I was wondering the same things. So this brings us to several important questions about the new cartridges (Berzerk Enhanced and Mr. Run and Jump) and Atari 2600+ consoles for sale in Europe.

 

- Will the new cartridges sold in Europe be PAL50, PAL60 or NTSC? Or will these new cartridges be region free (as for example the cartridges manufactured by Retro-bit for the NES, SNES and Genesis)?

They are all definitely NTSC only so far. They work fine on the 2600+ but they will display in PAL60 with wrong colors (or no colors, if the scanline count is odd/unstable) on a real PAL 2600 console.

I'd be extremely surprised if Atari would release PAL cartridges, honestly. And multiregion Atari 2600 games cannot exist. The max you can do is to have a game that is switchable between PAL and NTSC using, for example, a console switch(*), but that is to be handled by the game code. Hacking existing/classic games is difficult and requires skills and it's easy to introduce bugs in the process. Another way is just to make every cartridge a "2in1" multicart with both versions selectable by an external switch. Easier to do, but it's not gonna happen (and it would be a cheap solution), IMO.

6 hours ago, Defender_2600 said:

- And, will the Atari 2600+ consoles sold in Europe be compatible with PAL50, PAL60 and NTSC cartridges? Or will European consoles only support PAL50 cartridges (which would be a disappointment)?

Stella supports NTSC, PAL and PAL60 (and SECAM😄), and the HDMI output works with all region TVs. So there doesn't need to be a specific European version of the 2600+. And I bet there isn't.

 

Stella autodetects the format of the game by looking at the framerate (which on a 2600 is coded in the game itself, as the vertical synchronization is under software control) and defaults to NTSC if the game is 60Hz and to PAL if it's 50Hz.
So NTSC and PAL cartridges will work fine on a 2600+. (if they can be dumped, that is)

 

The problem is with PAL60.
PAL60 cannot be autodetected reliably and Stella will default to NTSC (So you'll play the game with wrong colors, because of the different palette between PAL and NTSC TIAs).

 

On the PC version of Stella, for existing games there are properties in the internal database.

 

For new games it is possible to
- include a property file with the rom itself (they can be in a zip archive together with the rom and you don't need to unpack it to play the game)
- Include the string "PAL60", "PAL-60" and variants in the rom filename.

In case the above fails, after starting the game you just hit "TAB", change the format to PAL60 yourself, and the emulator will remember that settings every time you play that game.

On the 2600+, the hash of the game might change in some cases (if the cartridge has ram, for example), which will prevent from recognizing the (existing) game in the internal database.

And by dumping the cart, assuming that the dump succeed, you don't get a filename (nor a property file, of course).

So you need a way to access the emulator settings, and it doesn't seem that they included a button to bring up a menu on the console (it would ruin the illusion 😉)

 

For the 7800 side, I guess you also need a way to tell the emulator that you want to emulate a PAL machine in order to play PAL 7800 cartridges. So, again, you'd need a way to access the settings. Or maybe there's a way to tell if a cart is PAL or NTSC from the dump? (I have very limited knowledge/experience with the 7800).

 

 

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(*) By including a timer in the cartridge, you can measure the clock frequency of the console and tell if it's PAL and NTSC. This is done in some ARM games (the ARM has its own clock independent from the 2600 one) to automatically switch to the correct format. Of course that doesn't work with a dumper.

Edited September 2, 2023 by alex_79

[+Defender_2600]

1 hour ago, alex_79 said:

The max you can do is to have a game that is switchable between PAL and NTSC using, for example, a console switch(*), but that is to be handled by the game code.

 

1 hour ago, alex_79 said:

So you need a way to access the emulator settings, and it doesn't seem that they included a button to bring up a menu on the console (it would ruin the illusion 😉)

 

On the back of the Atari 2600+, in addition to the difficulty selectors, I see that they have added a third switch and I wonder what it's for, maybe just for selecting the 4:3 or 16:9 format or really for accessing the options menu.

 

Then there's the color/black-white switch but I guess it keeps the original function even if it could be used for something else, a useful function would be the ability to pause the game, in fact the pause button is available on the 7800 console.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

1 hour ago, Defender_2600 said:

On the back of the Atari 2600+, in addition to the difficulty selectors, I see that they have added a third switch and I wonder what it's for, maybe just for selecting the 4:3 or 16:9 format or really for accessing the options menu.

It is labelled 4:3 and 16:9.

[alex_79]

46 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

It is labelled 4:3 and 16:9.

Yup.

An option button would have been much more useful IMO. (the aspect ratio could have been just one of the options you could access...)

 

1 hour ago, Defender_2600 said:

Then there's the color/black-white switch but I guess it keeps the original function even if it could be used for something else, a useful function would be the ability to pause the game, in fact the pause button is available on the 7800 console.

 

The console switches are just generic inputs that can be read by the processor. It's the game that determines their function. And as time passed, and their original function wasn't needed anymore (on screen menus were used instead of difficulty and select switches, and B&W TVs were less common) they were often reused for other purposes, including pausing the game.

So they need to stay generic inputs that the emulated game can read. If they're removed or repurposed for something else, you'll break compatibility.

 

---------------------------

 

 

 

 

E.g.

When the Flashback 2 plug'n'play console was released, it had 5 big push buttons on the front panel (the retro gaming scene was much smaller back then, and the product had to also appeal kids too)

The TV Type switch wasn't one of them, as B&W TVs were a thing of the past, and customers would probably have just considered it weird. But Curt Vendel knew that the switch might have been needed (especially if the cartridge mod was performed), so he still included it on the back of the console.

 

 

With the Flashback 3 AtGames took over Curt Vendel's company to design the console and they switched to an emulator based device. They mostly copied the case design, including the big colored switches, but they had the brilliant idea to remove the TV Type switch ("who needs that?").

The result was that "Secret Quest", a game that was included in the Flashback 3 console was unplayable, as it requires the TV Type switch for gameplay (it's used to access the weapon selection screen and to display the code for the current level so that you don't have to start from the beginning each time).

Modifying the case and PCB is expensive, and in subsequent versions they just added a key-combo to simulate the TV-Type switch, which is less than ideal but at least allowed the game to be played.

 

 

With the Flashback X, after the success of retro-consoles like the NES classic, they finally redesigned the case to more faithfully mimic the original 2600 and....

WTF!

 

 

------------------------------

So, long story short (too late!), to get good compatibility you need all the console switches just like a real console, and a separate way to access the emulator settings.

 

If only there was a place where people who are interested about these old consoles reunite and discuss and share knowledge about them, and where companies could ask for advice and suggestions before putting these devices into production...🙄

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by alex_79

[Thomas Jentzsch]

2 hours ago, alex_79 said:

On the 2600+, the hash of the game might change in some cases (if the cartridge has ram, for example), which will prevent from recognizing the (existing) game in the internal database.

I have addressed the problem here. It is quite significant, IMO.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Thomas Jentzsch

[+Defender_2600]

51 minutes ago, alex_79 said:

The console switches are just generic inputs that can be read by the processor. It's the game that determines their function. And as time passed, and their original function wasn't needed anymore (on screen menus were used instead of difficulty and select switches, and B&W TVs were less common) they were often reused for other purposes, including pausing the game.

So they need to stay generic inputs that the emulated game can read. If they're removed or repurposed for something else, you'll break compatibility.

 

Thank you for remembering it and arguing it so well. I forgot this while distracted by the absence of the 7800's pause button, so at least for the 7800 it seems that the option to use the color/black-white switch as a pause button is still theoretically valid.

 

Although we still don't know which emulator is used for the 7800 and if the second joystick button is detected (otherwise some games would be unplayable).

 

[+Defender_2600]

4 hours ago, alex_79 said:

Stella supports NTSC, PAL and PAL60 (and SECAM😄), and the HDMI output works with all region TVs. So there doesn't need to be a specific European version of the 2600+. And I bet there isn't.

 

 I am also wondering if the 2600+, in addition to being capable of 1080p output, will also support 720p output, thinking not only of those who own small diagonal LCD TVs (or in any case of older construction) but also those who have some fantastic CRT TV capable of 720p input.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

30 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

 I am also wondering if the 2600+, in addition to being capable of 1080p output, will also support 720p output, thinking not only of those who own small diagonal LCD TVs (or in any case of older construction) but also those who have some fantastic CRT TV capable of 720p input.

I suppose it will simply use Stella's fullscreen mode. Which is whatever the display allows.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Jstick]

I'm curious whether they will enable any retro effects (scanlines, phosphor, composite video simulation, etc.). 

 

I guess it depends on who they are targeting; old timers might appreciate these, while younger folks will most likely prefer the sharp pixelated look.  Since there is presumably no menu, whatever is chosen will be the default for everyone, for better or worse.

[hizzy]

Does anyone know how it's doing the 7800? Stella doesn't do that.

[RevEng]

On 8/25/2023 at 1:11 PM, DanBoris said:

And if it is using Stella, I wonder what it is using for the 7800 emulation. Would like to know if any of my code is in there. 

2 hours ago, hizzy said:

Does anyone know how it's doing the 7800? Stella doesn't do that.

The choice of 7800 emulator is certainly make or break for the 7800 aspect of this device. If they go with a Prosystem emulator, homebrew compatibility will be poor and glitchy.

 

I'd rather see a7800 emulator used. It was forked from Dan's original Mame a7800 driver, and is nearly cycle accurate at this point, allows for mid-scanline graphical changes, has faithful pokey emulation in it's most exotic modes, ym2151 emulation, etc. But 2600+ doesn't seem to be concerned with homebrew, so I won't hold my breath.

[+Defender_2600]

3 hours ago, RevEng said:

(...)  But 2600+ doesn't seem to be concerned with homebrew, so I won't hold my breath.

 

This seems to be the scenario, in this case I think it's a shame and a missed opportunity. The 7800 homebrew scene is currently exploding with the offering of many excellent games that are completely "original" and/or "officially licensed", and the support of these new games could not only boost sales but represent the future of Atari 2600+ which, in addition to targeting the usual nostalgic audience, this time would also capture the attention of a wider audience who are interested in buying new 3rd generation games, including people who regularly buy NES homebrew games .

[Atari Dogs]

How much publicity would Atari get if they contacted Nintendo bought the right to Super Mario Bros and Donkey Kong and contacted the homebrewers and made an official release of Princess Rescue and Donkey Kong VCS?  That could double the sales of the 2600+.  Hell, call up Sega for Sonic too.

[+bent_pin]

20 minutes ago, Atari Dogs said:

How much publicity would Atari get if they contacted Nintendo bought the right to Super Mario Bros and Donkey Kong and contacted the homebrewers and made an official release of Princess Rescue and Donkey Kong VCS?  That could double the sales of the 2600+.  Hell, call up Sega for Sonic too.

Why would Nintendo agree to that though? It seems like they'd lose more from potential customers than they'd collect in license fees. In principle though, it's an awesome idea.

[Atari Dogs]

I meant rights to release on the 2600 not on everything.  I do not think Nintendo would lose any Switch console or game sales, and they have not had their NES mini or game watch in a long time.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Atari Dogs

[zzip]

16 hours ago, RevEng said:

 

I'd rather see a7800 emulator used. It was forked from Dan's original Mame a7800 driver, and is nearly cycle accurate at this point, allows for mid-scanline graphical changes, has faithful pokey emulation in it's most exotic modes, ym2151 emulation, etc. But 2600+ doesn't seem to be concerned with homebrew, so I won't hold my breath.

a7800 is used by Atari on the VCS,  I don't see why they'd switch to something else for 2600+, unless forced for technical reasons.

[RevEng]

2 hours ago, zzip said:

a7800 is used by Atari on the VCS,  I don't see why they'd switch to something else for 2600+, unless forced for technical reasons.

Ah, I did not know.

 

If they do the same here, the only nut to crack is cart format detection, since there's no a78 header in a real cart. It should be possible to actively probe for ram in-cart, probe pokey at the common addresses (assuming it's not a write-only pokey) and try some common bankswitch schemes.

[alfredtdk]

What is the best atari flashback that is closest to the original hardware and that does not use emulation, which is ideal for a mod with a cartridge slot? I'm thinking of purchasing one.

[famicommander]

12 minutes ago, alfredtdk said:

What is the best atari flashback that is closest to the original hardware and that does not use emulation, which is ideal for a mod with a cartridge slot? I'm thinking of purchasing one.

The Atari Flashback 2 series. The Flashback 1 was a piece of crap NES system on a chip and all the ones after the 2/2+ are awful emulation devices. 

[Tickled_Pink]

So, looking at this thread, the gatefold copy of Surround I bought years ago but never tested because I assume it's NTSC can finally be tested if I got a 2600+?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 minutes ago, Tickled_Pink said:

So, looking at this thread, the gatefold copy of Surround I bought years ago but never tested because I assume it's NTSC...

Why can't you test it because it is NTSC?