When will there be a scheduled firmware update for the 2600+?

[tradyblix]

4 minutes ago, fdr4prez said:

Nobody was contracted to develop or make the Harmony cart. 

 

As most things around here, they are a labor of love by fans in the community. 

 

So if the developer of it can find a workaround then we will all cheer him mightily at that achievement. 

I don't think that is an apples to apples comparison. Harmony cart wasn't an official Atari product, it was built for the express purpose of selling it by an enthusiast. 

 

While I'm sure we may see hardware hacks (I mean every other devices has gotten them). I personally only care about official firmware, unless it gets to the point that unofficial firmware is the way to go. 

 

At least with the updates we have gotten so far, enabling Harmony multi-cart support isn't even on the list yet. 

 

Note: I am not against it. I have a harmony cart. I also don't really need it at this point. I mainly only used it to test out rom prototypes if carts weren't available.

Edited December 5, 2023 by tradyblix
spelling!

[John Stamos Mullet]

47 minutes ago, tradyblix said:

Work that nobody has been contracted or agreed to do, to be fair. I would not hold my breath it will happen soon. 

batari is the guy who made the Harmony/Concerto. He is working on it currently.

[scifidude79]

On 12/3/2023 at 8:32 PM, Warboss Gegguz said:

If you bought this specifically to play carts you already own when you already have a functional Atari... you need to reevaluate your life.

I have a fully functional SNES, but I bought an HDMI clone console years ago to play my old cartridges. Not any of those expensive and quickly selling out analogue devices, but a Hyperkin SNES clone. This was due to not having (or wanting) a CRT television anymore. Not only are they old and, if one breaks, then you have to pay out the butt to get it fixed, but living in a 1 bedroom apartment limits your space. And, a SNES on a HDTV looks horrid, as does anything running through composite video. The HDMI clone allows me to play my SNES carts on my HDTV and they look great. You can apply that same logic to people who bought an Atari 2600+ that already have a 2600. Maybe they don't use the original because it won't look that nice on a HDTV, but the 2600+ looks great on there.

[scifidude79]

Accidental double post.

Edited December 6, 2023 by scifidude79

[Warboss Gegguz]

5 hours ago, scifidude79 said:

I have a fully functional SNES, but I bought an HDMI clone console years ago to play my old cartridges. Not any of those expensive and quickly selling out analogue devices, but a Hyperkin SNES clone. This was due to not having (or wanting) a CRT television anymore. Not only are they old and, if one breaks, then you have to pay out the butt to get it fixed, but living in a 1 bedroom apartment limits your space. And, a SNES on a HDTV looks horrid, as does anything running through composite video. The HDMI clone allows me to play my SNES carts on my HDTV and they look great. You can apply that same logic to people who bought an Atari 2600+ that already have a 2600. Maybe they don't use the original because it won't look that nice on a HDTV, but the 2600+ looks great on there.

I apologized, I was just kind of in a shit mood when I posted that. I'm aware getting old consoles to work on modern TVs takes a ton of work arounds.

As an aside, I will say the 2600+ is still WAY better than any flashback consoles or the NES/SNES Mini in terms of emulation quality... not that that's a high bar.

[tradyblix]

20 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

batari is the guy who made the Harmony/Concerto. He is working on it currently.

I was talking about about supporting firmware development on the 2600+ over a long period of time, my understanding was dumper code needed to be updated on the chips on the 2600+ for multi-cart to work, based on something I heard on the site. This may not be the case. 

 

Sorry if it apparently confused people. I was speculating on support only because they were sharing hours estimates and concerns about cart costs which made me think, if Atari doesn't want to produce carts because of costs that are sub 100,000 USD for a popular title, are they going to want to pay salaries of dedicated engineers over a multi-year time period to work on firmware changes to support new features and capabilities? The history of shipped products isn't exactly stellar (no pun intended) on this front.

 

Also because I am a developer and I think about things in terms of engineering cost (paying someone 50 hours to work a feature, for example). 

 

I probably should have just kept my mouth shut as I don't actually know what their plans are. If Harmony is going to be fixed independently of 2600+ changes, then that changes everything. 

 

At the end of the day, the proof will be in the pudding. the firmware updates will arrive and features will be added or they won't. I'm still at the stage of running around town trying to find a mini usb cable that will work with USB C correctly lol

Edited December 6, 2023 by tradyblix
spelling, corrections, clarifications

[Warboss Gegguz]

34 minutes ago, tradyblix said:

I was talking about about supporting firmware development on the 2600+ over a long period of time, my understanding was dumper code needed to be updated on the chips on the 2600+ for multi-cart to work, based on something I heard on the site. This may not be the case. 

 

Also because I am a developer and I think about things in terms of engineering cost (paying someone 50 hours to work a feature, for example). 

 

I probably should have just kept my mouth shut as I don't actually know what their plans are. If Harmony is going to be fixed independently of 2600+ changes, then that changes everything. 

Don't worry, I get it. But also, the core company isn't up to much in terms of development atm. They basically just have this and the VCS going on outside of typical corporate management.

Actual game development is all 3rd parties or acquired studios. Or in other words, if they have the resources to produce and put this thing out, it would be logical to allocate those same resources to SUPPORTING the platform going forward.

 

If I may put on my business and marketing cap on again, I feel like this most likely will sell far more than the VCS if it hasn't already. Ironically the issues this is facing (and why we're talking about this) is because this appeals more to the casual market than the VCS did, despite this being more geared towards established enthusiasts atm with the lack of flash support. I mean, my case is a perfect example of that. 

 

Devices like the retron or Analog's output that are ironically better suited for a casual market usually sell mostly to enthusiasts that already know about emulation and the like, while things like the Megadrive Mini, NES/SNES Minii, etc. appeal more to casual market even though taking full advantage of them requires more work (not that you'd want to with the NES/SNES Minis, lol). So, in other words, I'd say the core market that bought this was expecting this kind of thing to be supported out of the box.

 

And lastly, to be pretty blunt, it's not like this would need THAT much support for how simple it is on a technical level. According to teardowns is basically just libretros running in a minimal Linux environment. So the emulation software to support complex stuff is all there. It's just that the hardware isn't utilizing it atm.

If they can afford to make brand new carts with some bells and whistles and to buy 3 new studios, they can probably afford a firmware update for a rom dumper. lol. Will they? It would be a pretty shit look to do otherwise...

[John Stamos Mullet]

5 hours ago, Warboss Gegguz said:

 

If they can afford to make brand new carts with some bells and whistles and to buy 3 new studios, they can probably afford a firmware update for a rom dumper. lol. Will they? It would be a pretty shit look to do otherwise...

It’s not a “Shit look” at all. 

They are a for-profit business, and their goal is to make money and be a profitable company. If their long range plan is to continue releasing new and re-released games, then making it easier for people to use a legally questionable device that directly undercuts their plans is a monumentally stupid idea from a business management perspective. 
 

getting rom/sd carts working is not something Atari needs to focus on. They need to fix all the existing issues/incompatibilities with existing legit carts first. 
 

Chances are, Batair will get the harmony working on the 2600+ to a large extent, without any need for Atari to change their plans, and that’s just fine. 
 

but expecting Atari to undercut their own business to make it easier for people to cheat them out of profits is not by any stretch of the imagination a “shit look”.

[Sean_1970]

40 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

getting rom/sd carts working is not something Atari needs to focus on. They need to fix all the existing issues/incompatibilities with existing legit carts first. 

Yeah all I need from this is to be able to play Star Raiders, Omega Race and Robot Tank really. Sorting PAL 7800 carts would make it easier for me to get the couple of games from that catalogue I’d like, but homebrew is a nice to have, really.

[Warboss Gegguz]

1 hour ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

It’s not a “Shit look” at all. 

We were talking about updates in general. And yes, dropping a console and totally abandoning it is a bit of a shit look.

Also, what business? 99.99% of carts and titles people want to buy they either haven't reissued or don't even own.

That what I don't get about this argument. It's like, yeah, they make cash off of their reissues... but that's like maybe 1/5 of the entire console's library, and over 1/2 of those were licensed. And ATM every single cart outside of the standard editions of Mr. Run & Jump and Berzerk are sold out and have been for months.

So if they're looking to make money off of carts, they're doing a VERY poor job of it.

 

Like, Atari isn't poor, but they aren't THAT rich. If Ben is regularly telling people to curtail their expectations because of HOW MUCH COST goes into carts, it'd be a really odd way to make money. Meanwhile, the profit margins for the console itself are much higher.

 

I get the logic of this train of thought, but it doesn't reflect reality. Atari isn't REALLY a console manufacturer, they can't really lean on the razor and blade model when they have so few IPs and a niche audience of casual gamer old men (no offense to the 50+s here) and retro weirdos like me. Because if I want only titles by activision or the titles they licensed from other arcade companies, they have NOTHING to offer me. And sorting out licensing contracts is gonna be WAY more expensive let alone then manufacturing carts.

Making the 2600+ flash compatible would move WAY more inventory and turn a WAY higher profit than the comparably TINY audience that would buy every single reissue they make.

 

It's like how Analog "magically" has their FPGA cores leak on Github shortly after they launch a console... and then demand for it skyrockets.

I don't know how many ways I can explain the basic concept "having this accept roms/flash carts would sell more a shitload more 2600+s and make way more money than just reissuing carts" at this point. Review outlets biggest criticism of this device has been the lack of flash/rom support, which is gonna lose a lot more money than having people use the roms they already have instead of limited issue carts would. It's not like this is their only revenue source. In fact, it's arguably one of the lesser ones. The shit put out by their subsidiaries and their casual titles like the Recharged games are gonna earn more money and sales than ANYTHING to do with the 2600+.

Like, I think a few more people are gonna buy System Shock and Turok 3 Remastered than Berzerk Enhanced reissues. The likelihood they profit significantly off of reissues is pretty low.

 

People are talking like Atari is the same scale and power as they did in the 80s console market, and that's laughable. They like JUST left bankruptcy not even 10 years ago. I love retro consoles, but they aren't a profitable venture. The reissues are cool, but they've openly said the costs are huge.

 

And I HATE coming off all "AKSHULLY" with this and writing essays, but I legit don't know how else to explain this at this point.

 

But TL;DR How can you say "they wanna sell carts!" seriously when they currently have TWO GAMES available for purchase excluding the pack-ins with the paddle controllers and the 2600+ itself? Unless they're putting "Sold Out" next to everything other than Mr Run and Jump and Berzerk to drum up hype, they don't seem to be in a position to do that, financially or logistically.

Not doing this, PR aside, is just bleeding sales to the Retron and other clone systems, all of which ALSO undercut the 2600+ in price. The build quality is lower, and they're ugly AF, but who cares? 

I keep trying to explain why FROM A BUSINESS PERSPECTIVE this is a better idea, but everyone is coping that atari can somehow recoup costs more by reissuing carts despite them OPENLY STATING that doing so is expensive AF which is why they're so limited. And I would feel the same way whether or not I bought this. I just did and happen to be here as a result. Whether or not I would have benefited, I can say not supporting anything other than OG carts and reissues is a terrible idea if they want this to sell anywhere beyond a subset of a subset of the retro games fandom. and the reissues would be sold to an even SMALLER population of that.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Warboss Gegguz

[tradyblix]

I'm just thinking about, if you drop a new platform FOR cart play then you should want to setup conditions so that you can 1.) sell new carts and 2.) help continue the homebrew scene for people that have the 2600+. Otherwise... what's the point. We can all just play this stuff on a Miyoo Mini. But I found, yes, there is some value in collecting carts and playing on my living room, so just hoping they'll support it as more than just a pump and dump going forward. 

 

I mean to be FAIR - it's already pretty damn good. I'm not expecting miracles. But it would be nice. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by tradyblix

[Warboss Gegguz]

3 hours ago, tradyblix said:

I'm just thinking about, if you drop a new platform FOR cart play then you should want to setup conditions so that you can 1.) sell new carts and 2.) help continue the homebrew scene for people that have the 2600+. Otherwise... what's the point. We can all just play this stuff on a Miyoo Mini. But I found, yes, there is some value in collecting carts and playing on my living room, so just hoping they'll support it as more than just a pump and dump going forward. 

 

I mean to be FAIR - it's already pretty damn good. I'm not expecting miracles. But it would be nice. 

The irony is that if I had the cash (and they were ever back in stock ever again) I absolutely would by physical editions/reissues of carts or wholly new games. Owning a physical copy of berzerk or Mr. Run and Jump would be sick... It's just that they would also be the only carts I would own outside of my harmony cart.

And hey, they could greatly cut manufacturing and shipping costs and get a higher ROI if they started selling the option to just get the ROM like Champ does on their site... or at least they could if we were to get flashcart compatibility.

 

I'm just say that having no support for SD inputs OR flash carts is bad from a business perspective because it basically makes this something exclusively for enthusiasts rather than general audiences. I mean, I know a lot of boomers who would love to play atari but also don't have a mountain of carts sitting at home (eg my Dad, who I bought this for) or retro enthusiasts who don't have money to burn after buying a console that's already >$100 (me). Again, I don't regret my purchase since at least for the time being I can just flash my harmony cart... but sure would be great if there were other options, especially if I were to recommend it to others.

 

THAT'S all I've wanted to say. I didn't mean to get on a business lecture or come off rude, but the topic of reissues being the prime motive keeps coming up, and I just can't rationalize those making any significant ROI. The console itself? Sure. But the carts effectively cost more to make than the consoles for Atari.

[Warboss Gegguz]

I'm really sorry if I came off as aggressive. I just sort of got on a train of thought and forgot I was talking to a person. 😓

[tradyblix]

18 minutes ago, Warboss Gegguz said:

I'm really sorry if I came off as aggressive. I just sort of got on a train of thought and forgot I was talking to a person. 😓

Doesn't bother me lol. I'm used to ranting on the internet 😇

[Pinballs]

Support for the 7800GD and Harmony Encore carts would be much appreciated.

[+LS650]

Just a comment on this topic: I've noticed a number of postings in places like Facebook, Reddit, or Youtube videos, claiming that there will be a firmware update "before Christmas".

 

When I've asked the posters where they had read this, they tend to give vague answers, and obviously are mis-remembering what they've read.

 

From what I've seen here, no such comment has been made by Ben or anyone else involved with Atari, only that there will be more information about an update in the next few weeks.

[Brad_from_the_80s]

4 minutes ago, ls650 said:

Just a comment on this topic: I've noticed a number of postings in places like Facebook, Reddit, or Youtube videos, claiming that there will be a firmware update "before Christmas".

 

When I've asked the posters where they had read this, they tend to give vague answers, and obviously are mis-remembering what they've read.

 

From what I've seen here, no such comment has been made by Ben or anyone else involved with Atari, only that there will be more information about an update in the next few weeks.

I've seen the same, including a YT video announcing such an update "before Christmas".  They claim this forum is the source of the info, but I don't know where they're getting that, and I don't expect one for Christmas.  I think probably we will have more info before then, but no idea when the actual firmware will be ready.  Jan-Feb seems more likely to me.

[+karri]

I rather have a working, well tested update in 2024 than an "almost working" update before Christmas. 

[Sean_1970]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:44 AM, Warboss Gegguz said:

The irony is that if I had the cash (and they were ever back in stock ever again) I absolutely would by physical editions/reissues of carts or wholly new games. Owning a physical copy of berzerk or Mr. Run and Jump would be sick... It's just that they would also be the only carts I would own outside of my harmony cart.

And hey, they could greatly cut manufacturing and shipping costs and get a higher ROI if they started selling the option to just get the ROM like Champ does on their site... or at least they could if we were to get flashcart compatibility.

 

I'm just say that having no support for SD inputs OR flash carts is bad from a business perspective because it basically makes this something exclusively for enthusiasts rather than general audiences. I mean, I know a lot of boomers who would love to play atari but also don't have a mountain of carts sitting at home (eg my Dad, who I bought this for) or retro enthusiasts who don't have money to burn after buying a console that's already >$100 (me). Again, I don't regret my purchase since at least for the time being I can just flash my harmony cart... but sure would be great if there were other options, especially if I were to recommend it to others.

 

THAT'S all I've wanted to say. I didn't mean to get on a business lecture or come off rude, but the topic of reissues being the prime motive keeps coming up, and I just can't rationalize those making any significant ROI. The console itself? Sure. But the carts effectively cost more to make than the consoles for Atari.

I’m very much hoping they’ll do more multi game carts or enhanced along the lines of Berzerk with improved audio or music added, especially since (unlike the silver box stuff) they made the two new carts available internationally.

 

I think your idea of some kind of SD cart adapter isn’t bad, but navigating through finding the ROMs and putting them on a card (likely using some kind of adapter in the near future just to get them off your computer) doesn’t feel like “Joe public” stuff to me. I got a set of ROMs in a single zip file from somewhere and trying to curate hundreds of ROMs for stuff I like is incredibly tedious. I cannot imagine a casually nostalgic person trying to find some game they remember from 40+ years ago reading through a thousand filenames. If Atari was selling the SD card with pre-loaded ROMs on it with the adapter sure, but that wouldn’t cover off the games which would still have copyright issues. Having the (unadvertised) ability to swap SD cards for one of your own would address that for the people who can be bothered.

 

I guess it all depends on cart sales and profit margins and what they want to do with the 2600+, but an official SD adapter cart seems like something that’s not unlikely to me down the line.

[eCockpit89]

22 hours ago, Brad_from_the_80s said:

I've seen the same, including a YT video announcing such an update "before Christmas".  They claim this forum is the source of the info, but I don't know where they're getting that, and I don't expect one for Christmas.  I think probably we will have more info before then, but no idea when the actual firmware will be ready.  Jan-Feb seems more likely to me.

Yeah, Mid-Jan to Early Feb is my Ballpark estimate.  

[Microjak]

I wouldn't mind waiting until early next year for a robust update and also I think the guys working on it deserve a nice Christmas break.

[Voiceless Defender]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:10 AM, Ben from Plaion said:

No date, but like everyone else I want it asap - its all hands on deck on these main points as follows;

 

7800 emulation upgrade 

7800 dumper upgrade to fix reported PAL cart errors and enable homebrew

2600 PAL colour palette change to z26

2600 dumper upgrade to fix Realsports Boxing, Circus Convoy, CBS RAM Plus and M-Network games

2600 difficulty switch reversal

2600/7800 auto detect cart region for 50/60hz display

 

Maybe elements within these points we run into difficulties, maybe more fixes are added, at this moment in time I just need to become bit clearer on whats acheivable and in what timeframe.

 

I'll be posting in the main AA 2600+ thread with more details on these points and giving an indication of when a update will be available in the next few weeks.

 

Thank you for doing this, Tunnel Runner is my favorite game on the 2600, and seeing that it wasn't compatible was a little bit of a letdown. Can't wait!

[Sean_1970]

10 hours ago, Voiceless Defender said:

Thank you for doing this, Tunnel Runner is my favorite game on the 2600, and seeing that it wasn't compatible was a little bit of a letdown. Can't wait!

Please Video Touch Pad support too, but being able to play Robot Tank and Omega Race will also be groovy 😁

[Pinballs]

I'd like to play my 7800GD cart for 7800 and 2600 games, but as the 2600+ doesn't and likely won't support them I've boxed it up again. I'm now using an original 7800 with the 7800GD, connected to HDMI via RetroTINK 5X Pro. Also works via SCART with an RGC lead. I'm disappointed with the 2600+ frankly. It could have been so much better than this as the definitive way to play 7800 and 2600 games on original-ish hardware (not FPGA, but so be it). Sorry to be negative but this is my honest view, as an Atari fan. 

[Ben from Plaion]

7 hours ago, Sean_1970 said:

Please Video Touch Pad support too, but being able to play Robot Tank and Omega Race will also be groovy 😁

Omega Race is being worked on right now. I'll post any news on AA soon as its cracked.

 

Robot Tank I'm a bit confused on as my copy works fine, but other people seem to have issues.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Ben from Plaion