3D in jagstudio

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, Ericde45 said:

yes, it uses the object processor, clearly designed to make fast 2D objects

it runs at high priority to ensure that.

 

For what purpose are GPU and Blitter designed then? 

The fact is, you contradict the Designers and coders of Jaguar and what they have said. Attacking me personally and arrogantly Speaks Volumes about the "Quality" of your arguments. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by agradeneu

[Ericde45]

not for 3D, that's sure

jthat is an example of a 3D design : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_technical_specifications

 

 

[agradeneu]

6 minutes ago, Ericde45 said:

not for 3D, that's sure

jthat is an example of a 3D design : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_technical_specifications

 

 

Because in your twisted world, you will need 26 MIPS and gouraud shading for 2D sprites.

[Ericde45]

i was talking about 3D no ?

end of discussion on my side, you are a troll everytime i read something from you. either here or on the discord.

[agradeneu]

4 minutes ago, Ericde45 said:

i was talking about 3D no ?

end of discussion on my side, you are a troll everytime i read something from you. either here or on the discord.

I expected better from you. So weak. 

[agradeneu]

"The Graphics Processor and Blitter provide a tightly coupled pair of processors for performing a much wider range of animation effects. A design goal of this system was to provide a fast throughput when rendering 3D polygons. The Graphics Processor therefore has a fast instruction throughput, and a powerful ALU with a parallel multiplier, a barrel-shifter, and a divide unit, in addition to the normal arithmetic functions. The Graphics Processor has four kilobytes of fast internal RAM, which is used for local program and data space. This allows it to execute programs in parallel with the other processing units. The Blitter is capable of performing a range of blitting operation 64 bits at a time, allowing fast block move and fill operations, and it can generate strips of pixels for Gouraud shaded Z-buffered polygons 64 bits at a time. It is also capable of rotating bit-maps, line-drawing, character-painting, and a range of other effects."

 

Jaguar tech manual, page 5

 

Don't confront opiniated people with facts, they will go mad, right? 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by agradeneu

[Ericde45]

they also wrote in the same documentation about dma which are not in the console....

don't talk technical stuff, go back to filling pixels

[agradeneu]

9 minutes ago, Ericde45 said:

they also wrote in the same documentation about dma which are not in the console....

don't talk technical stuff, go back to filling pixels

Ok, Idiot

 

Here is something fitting for you:

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by agradeneu

[42bs]

11 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

a divide unit, i

Which is crap! Divide takes up to 16 cycles. And one needs a lot of divides in texture mapping. Or for rotation.

It is very hard to fill this gap of 16 cycles with something usefull.

 

The "tech doc" is more a "wish list".

[42bs]

20 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

as four kilobytes of fast internal RAM, which is used for local program and data space

Which are the only 4K RAM where the GPU can run with descent speed.

The Jaguar chip set needed another debugging/fixing round but either Atari ran out of money or they saw the upcoming PS1 and hoped to get some pieces of the game market before Sony enters the playfield.

 

All in all, I love the machine for what it is easy to code and has a decent speed. But it is not the 3D machine it was advertised. No matter how often 3D appears in the manual.

[agradeneu]

4 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Which is crap! Divide takes up to 16 cycles. And one needs a lot of divides in texture mapping. Or for rotation.

It is very hard to fill this gap of 16 cycles with something usefull.

 

The "tech doc" is more a "wish list".

Well, is this another attempt at "Korinthenkacken" Bastian?

 

It does not matter what you think, it matters what the designers thought when they designed the Jaguar and what hardware was on the market that time.

 

Telling people the Jaguar was not designed for 3D is a BLATANT LIE, I repeat, a BLATANT LIE!

 

Again, time travel back to 1992 and go whine to John Mathieson. You guys are so full of yourselfes, incredible!

[42bs]

Yes, parts of it where designed for 3D. But they stopped half way. And no, I am not complaining. Just saying, that Atari's doc and advertising does not reflect the actual machine they did build and sell.

Hey, they even claimed, they have hardware morphing.

 

[+selgus]

20 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Which is crap! Divide takes up to 16 cycles. And one needs a lot of divides in texture mapping. Or for rotation.

It is very hard to fill this gap of 16 cycles with something usefull.

 

The "tech doc" is more a "wish list".

Most of the consoles I've worked on which had divide units in hardware, had semi-large number of cycles latency before you could utilize the result. When doing perspective correction during texturing, etc., I would normally pipeline at least two vertices/texture coordinates/whatever, and be able to fill most, if not all, the divide latency. I do agree it can quite tricky at times and a PITA when you need to modify and/or optimize.

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, Ericde45 said:

yes, it uses the object processor, clearly designed to make fast 2D objects

it runs at high priority to ensure that.

 

And the infamous 68K, just guessing?

 

3 hours ago, Cyprian said:

anyway,

GPU can handle 3D - e.g. Doom, Cybermorph or Iron Soldier

 

 

The 68K and OP coupled are enough for most 2D games.

 

Good luck running those just on 68K and OP!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cyprian]

3 hours ago, Ericde45 said:

at 60 fps like the PS1 ? ....

 

be serious. texturing is not native to Jaguar.

 

 

why 60?

 

Iron Soldier and Doom are playable at lower frame rate

[Ericde45]

game were playable on amstrad cpc also

 

 

[Cyprian]

Just now, Ericde45 said:

game were playable on amstrad cpc also

 

 

and?

 

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, Cyprian said:

why 60?

 

Iron Soldier and Doom are playable at lower frame rate

Don't expect a sincere or honest answer. Seriously.

Edited December 11, 2023 by agradeneu

[agradeneu]

2 minutes ago, Ericde45 said:

game were playable on amstrad cpc also

 

 

What a rubbish, do you have mirrors at home?!

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, 42bs said:

Which are the only 4K RAM where the GPU can run with descent speed.

The Jaguar chip set needed another debugging/fixing round but either Atari ran out of money or they saw the upcoming PS1 and hoped to get some pieces of the game market before Sony enters the playfield.

 

All in all, I love the machine for what it is easy to code and has a decent speed. But it is not the 3D machine it was advertised. No matter how often 3D appears in the manual.

 

 

For this discussion, it does not matter that better hardware came later. Because it always does, later hardware is mostly better than older, PS5 makes PS3 look bad. 

 

BTW Atari did not "saw" the PS1 - as there was none - actually Sony and Sega saw the Jaguar and made their upcoming hardware more powerful. 

 

In 1992, the Super FX Chip was a very sophisticated and radical reference design in console 3D gfx and the Jaguar outperformed it, which was the goal of the design. 

 

Coincidentally, one of the Flares key designers, Ben Cheese, was also involved in the development of the Super FX chip. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Cheese

 

  

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by agradeneu

[Ericde45]

50 minutes ago, Cyprian said:

and?

 

and 60 fps is better than 15, that's obvious

3D games running are 10 fps are very unattractive

 

but now you have a challenge, you must do Jumping at shadows without using the GPU. and if you don't manage to do it, just ask agraneuneu. he will explain you how to code better, as he does with me

[agradeneu]

4 minutes ago, Ericde45 said:

and 60 fps is better than 15, that's obvious

3D games running are 10 fps are very unattractive

 

but now you have a challenge, you must do Jumping at shadows without using the GPU. and if you don't manage to do it, just ask agraneuneu. he will explain you how to code better, as he does with me

Maybe you should learn to communicate with logic and reason before bragging about your coding skills, like most people are capable of,  hm?

 

Nothing you say makes any sense, other than feeding yourself with the childish superiority complex you show off since day one. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by agradeneu

[Cyprian]

2 hours ago, Ericde45 said:

and 60 fps is better than 15, that's obvious

3D games running are 10 fps are very unattractive

 

but now you have a challenge, you must do Jumping at shadows without using the GPU. and if you don't manage to do it, just ask agraneuneu. he will explain you how to code better, as he does with me

obviously 120fps is better than 60

 

but in retro computer world we have used to live with 25 and less fps.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Cyprian

[+CyranoJ]

JagStudio provides no access to 3D functionality, of whatever availability your given definition of it is.

The blitter is fully exposed and supported in JagStudio.

You can set up a framebuffer and roll your own routines.

[OVERRiDE]

4 hours ago, CyranoJ said:

JagStudio provides no access to 3D functionality, of whatever availability your given definition of it is.

The blitter is fully exposed and supported in JagStudio.

You can set up a framebuffer and roll your own routines.

I actually thought the programming manual states that there is no framebuffer on the Jag, with some B.S. reason that this made developers write more efficient code lol.

 

But in practice, I guess you could just allocate an address in RAM and write all of your rasterized triangles to that as a framebuffer, then display that framebuffer as 1 sprite using the OP?  If that is the case, how is the blitter used?  I imagine for faster writes of your rasterized triangle pixels to RAM?  Or is the blitter necessary to write back to RAM from the GPU?

 

I say this having experience writing 3D API's for other systems, but still trying to figure out how this was intended to work on the Jag.