Porch Pirates

[reifsnyderb]

Well, this is Atari-related in that I just found out that one of the 2023 Atari 800XL system boards was swiped by a porch pirate.

 

Looking through what I can find online, it appears the seller takes responsibility and sends a replacement.  Is this really the case?  (I live in an rather rural area where we don't have that problem as dealing with an irate homeowner would be a really bad experience.)

 

I am asking because if this is really the case as this will really affect how I handle shipping in the future.  Spending weeks developing something, hours assembling and testing, and shipping it only to have to replace it for free?  Maybe that works fine for a product that is made by the millions but it doesn't work too well for something that is made by the tens. 

 

Thanks!

[Goochman]

You should be able to file a claim with the shipper is my guess - bummer, whoever stole it will have no idea what to do with it

[reifsnyderb]

12 minutes ago, Goochman said:

You should be able to file a claim with the shipper is my guess - bummer, whoever stole it will have no idea what to do with it

Shipped via USPS w/tracking and delivered to customer's porch.  My belief is that USPS will not pay anything as they delivered it.  Customer even has porch pirate on video.

 

Yeah, that thought occurred to me right away:  The jacka** who stole it will be clueless as to what it is and what to do with it.

Edited December 22, 2023 by reifsnyderb

[chevymad]

Porch pirates are thick in this area. The delivery services aren't very reliable either for that matter. Always someone local posting that their stuff was delivered to the wrong address. A nice pic of it on someone else's porch.  Hopefully you insured the shipment? 

[reifsnyderb]

Just now, chevymad said:

Porch pirates are thick in this area. The delivery services aren't very reliable either for that matter. Always someone local posting that their stuff was delivered to the wrong address. A nice pic of it on someone else's porch.  Hopefully you insured the shipment? 

I checked and it was insured in that it would be delivered.  It was delivered.  The buyer even has a video of some a**hole taking it.  I don't think USPS will pay for it.  There seems to be an expectation, at least from what I've seen online, that the seller pay.  Like I said:  This will change how I ship in the future.

[ACML]

This is a tough situation, but my opinion is that it was delivered to the address, so the shipper's obligation is over.  It's now the buyer's responsibility to ensure a delivered package is not stolen on their property.  Just the other day I was notified that an eBay shipment was delivered and I was on the computer looking out the window at my mailbox when it was supposedly delivered.  No delivery was made.  It turned out that the USPS driver delivered it to my neighbor's mailbox.  It ended well, but when I thought foul play was at hand, I originaly took the stance that the seller owes me a new replacement item.  Your situation is more cut and dry as the buyer has video of the porch pirate stealing it off his porch.  Again, in this case, you should not be liable to send a replacement.  You met your end of the bargin.

 

I'd contest the replacement demand.  The buyer will be upset, but it should not be at you.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by ACML

[reifsnyderb]

1 minute ago, ACML said:

Your situation is more cut and dry as the buyer has video of the porch pirate stealing it off his porch.  Again, in this case, you should not be liable to send a replacement.  You met your end of the bargin.

This is my thought.  I got it done.  Why should I be liable?

[reifsnyderb]

9 minutes ago, ACML said:

I'd contest the replacement demand.  The buyer will be upset, but it should not be at you.

I am still working with the buyer to see what's possible.  I am not sure if he'll try to get a replacement at a cheaper price or how this is going to work out.  Right now, I am rather upset because my experience has been that it's a lot harder to deal with, as a seller, if the buyer files a PayPal claim.  When I was making hot-ends by the hundreds, I had enough in the pipeline that I could easily replace the occasional one lost.  (Usually an international shipment, too.)  This is a different scenario.

Edited December 22, 2023 by reifsnyderb

[ACML]

Some neighborhoods are just going to be more prone to this kind of crime and if this happens on a regular basis in your area, maybe as a buyer, you need to just tell the Post Office to hold delivery and that you'll pick up all packages at the Post Office.

Edited December 22, 2023 by ACML

[reifsnyderb]

2 minutes ago, ACML said:

Some neighborhoods are just going to be more prone to this kind of crime and if this happens on a regular basis in your area, maybe as a buyer, you need to just tell the Post Office to hold delivery and that you'll pick up all packages at the Post Office.

I wish I knew that this was a big risk as I would have sent the package with a restricted delivery.  While not the buyer's fault, it would be nice if the buyer would have told me that this was a problem in his area.

[pcrow]

Did the buyer's payment method include any sort of insurance?  Some credit cards would cover this.

[reifsnyderb]

6 minutes ago, pcrow said:

Did the buyer's payment method include any sort of insurance?  Some credit cards would cover this.

It was PayPal.  I don't know if he used a credit card via PayPal.

[chevymad]

I sure wouldn't think you're responsible. I mean it made it to their house.  Sucks for both of you, but at this point I think it's their issue. Claim it on their home owners or rental insurance. It was a theft from their property. 

 

[CapitanClassic]

Not official, but links to PayPal official TOS, says that you need to provide proof of delivery. Once delivered, it isn’t your issue, it is the security on the buyer’s property.

 

[Atari8guy]

Different Country, but in Canada it's the buyers loss once it's been delivered.  As I found out the hard way.... hope that jerk (who I also have video of) enjoys the 3 kids books that cost 9 bucks total and are aimed at 4 year olds!!

[reifsnyderb]

24 minutes ago, chevymad said:

I sure wouldn't think you're responsible. I mean it made it to their house.  Sucks for both of you, but at this point I think it's their issue. Claim it on their home owners or rental insurance. It was a theft from their property. 

 

That's my opinion, too.

[reifsnyderb]

18 minutes ago, CapitanClassic said:

Not official, but links to PayPal official TOS, says that you need to provide proof of delivery. Once delivered, it isn’t your issue, it is the security on the buyer’s property.

 

I am concerned he could file a complaint w/PayPal.  So, I just added the tracking information to the PayPal transaction.  I think then it's up to him to prove he never got it.  Otherwise, my experience has been the proof has been on the seller.

[Havok69]

The whole situation sucks, but that is the buyer's problem. If it happened to me I'd be pissed, but wouldn't bother you at all except to order another one and perhaps ask to have it sent with signature required.

[+MrFish]

Utilize a P.O. box for such things is a possibility. They're not expensive at all. I had a P.O. box for many years before, and received many Ebay orders for Atari equipment through it.

 

 

 

[chevymad]

Not sure what you consider not expensive. But our PO box is $183 a year.  Also handy when they decide to hold a package for you. Their hours are 9-5 daily, closed from noon to 1pm. Not open saturday.  So you have to take off work to go sign for something. 

[jhd]

6 hours ago, ACML said:

 if this happens on a regular basis in your area, maybe as a buyer, you need to just tell the Post Office to hold delivery and that you'll pick up all packages at the Post Office.

 

This! Parcels will be stolen from the lobby of my apartment building. Surveillance video and an attentive building manager has not really helped.

 

If it is larger than a letter, I have it delivered directly to the post office just down the street. A few places will not ship there; in those cases, I just find an alternative source. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by jhd

[kenames99]

fedex can usually deliver to a fedex store where it can then be picked up. same with ups and a lot of locations that act as a pickup place, CVS is a big one but there are many. just check the website ups.com .

 

Ken

 

[bfollowell]

6 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

I checked and it was insured in that it would be delivered.  It was delivered.  The buyer even has a video of some a**hole taking it.  I don't think USPS will pay for it.  There seems to be an expectation, at least from what I've seen online, that the seller pay.  Like I said:  This will change how I ship in the future.

 

Well, there's the rub. You paid to have an item delivered to a buyer's home, not delivered right into their waiting hands. If someone living in a crime ridden area of south Chicago ordered something, you had proof it was delivered, and they had proof that it was delivered, then later stolen, I don't see how you would be responsible. It would have more to do with whether you wanted to go over and above the call of duty or not. I guess it also depends on if you sold it through ebay or some other similar service and what their rules are. Heck, if you send them another one, what's to stop it from being stolen as well? Are you supposed to keep sending them at your cost? Where does it end? Heck, maybe the buyer is telling his buddy to come grab them off the porch and then reporting them stolen and he'll wind up with 37 of them on your dime.

 

I agree, this whole porch pirate thing has been out of hand for a long time. They're the worst of the bottom feeders.

 

 

[+MrFish]

2 hours ago, chevymad said:

Not sure what you consider not expensive. But our PO box is $183 a year.

$183 per year translates to $15.25 a month. In my opinion not expensive, for rental of a fixed piece of real estate within a post office. I haven't had a P.O. for some years now; so I wasn't paying quite that much -- maybe $120 or so per year in 2014. If you order a lot of things online and live where people are thieving from porches, it's not much to insure you get your stuff.

 

My post office only required payment for 3 months at a time (about $30 per month, back in 2014; $45 per month at the price you gave).

 

2 hours ago, chevymad said:

Also handy when they decide to hold a package for you. Their hours are 9-5 daily, closed from noon to 1pm. Not open saturday.  So you have to take off work to go sign for something. 

My post office was open during lunch hours and Saturday. So, I had no such problem.

 

[reifsnyderb]

45 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

 

Well, there's the rub. You paid to have an item delivered to a buyer's home, not delivered right into their waiting hands. If someone living in a crime ridden area of south Chicago ordered something, you had proof it was delivered, and they had proof that it was delivered, then later stolen, I don't see how you would be responsible. It would have more to do with whether you wanted to go over and above the call of duty or not. I guess it also depends on if you sold it through ebay or some other similar service and what their rules are. Heck, if you send them another one, what's to stop it from being stolen as well? Are you supposed to keep sending them at your cost? Where does it end? Heck, maybe the buyer is telling his buddy to come grab them off the porch and then reporting them stolen and he'll wind up with 37 of them on your dime.

 

I agree, this whole porch pirate thing has been out of hand for a long time. They're the worst of the bottom feeders.

 

 

I've already told him I have an issue with sending another one as I cannot be sure he'll get it. 

 

You are right, these porch pirates are serious bottom feeders.  They don't know if they are stealing kids clothes or a package from shitsenders.com .  Either way, they will happily steal it.