Porch Pirates

[reifsnyderb]

On 5/15/2024 at 2:16 AM, Overange said:

I have heard there are avenues for contesting PayPal's decision in a dispute.

PayPal usually provides a process for appealing their decision, such as submitting additional evidence or requesting a review of the case by a higher authority within PayPal's dispute resolution team.

When contesting a decision, it's important to carefully follow PayPal's instructions and provide any relevant information or documentation that supports your case.

This could include additional proof of delivery, communication with the buyer, or any other evidence that sheds light on the situation.

While there's no guarantee of success in contesting a decision, it's worth pursuing if you believe that PayPal's initial ruling was unjust or inaccurate.

Be sure to review PayPal's policies and procedures for disputes to understand the specific steps and requirements for appealing a decision.

I haven't found a way to appeal this.

[reifsnyderb]

On 5/15/2024 at 2:09 PM, Geister said:

Always gotta be somebody ruining it for the rest of us.  

 

I gotta be honest, I never saw the need for paypal in the first place.  Just another asshole inserting themselves in between us and our money.  What purpose do they provide?

At one time, credits cards had serious initial setup and merchant fees.  I think PayPal was a resolution to that issue.

[reifsnyderb]

On 5/15/2024 at 3:13 PM, jhd said:

 

Is limiting yourself to the local market an option, i.e. only deal with customers who are willing to meet you in-person and pay cash? This completely avoids shipping, PayPal, and all that nonsense. 

 

There used to be a retro hardware repair facility located in a city where I previously lived. After a few years in business, the proprietor made the decision to completely cease doing any work by mail. Thereafter, all transactions occurred at his workshop. 

Limiting to a local market isn't an option.  People aren't going to travel thousands of miles to buy an upgrade card or other device.

[CPUWIZ]

@Victims of porch pirates:  Frequently put Amazon boxes, nicely sealed up, filled with garbage on your porch.  

[reifsnyderb]

I've been rather quiet because I've been really p*ssed off.

 

Admittedly, around 99% of all people I've conducted business with are honest.  But there is always one asshole in the bunch.  Always.

 

If this guy wouldn't have known it was stolen or USPS had lost the item, that would have been different.

 

If the board was a completed board and didn't work, I would have fixed it.  Sometimes a board tests out fine for me, then fails for the customer.  When I get it back it isn't working, either.  But it worked before it left.  It's crazy.  I fix those or provide replacements.  I think there was only one time whereby I couldn't find a problem with the board but it didn't work for the customer.  We eventually figured it was his computer.

 

I really don't have too many other examples as most of the time things go well.  For example, I once had a guy file a dispute against me because his country charged him a tariff on a 3d print head I sold him.  After a few crazy e-mails, I refunded his order and told him I was never going to do business with him again.  He never tried to buy anything from me again, so it wasn't a problem.  But at that time, I was making over 100 3d print heads a week and selling them both in quantities and individually.  So, the loss of a few didn't matter so much.

 

The total machining time for a 3d print head was around 30 minutes and around 1/2 of this was via CNC.

 

In the case of an entire system board, it takes a week just to do a lot of modifications on an existing design.  Then, for the 800XL remake boards it was around 5 hours to assemble the board so as to test it.  So, I have a considerable amount of investment involved on my end. 

 

Now, I discover I am still responsible if the item was stolen off of the guy's porch and I don't get anything for my time, parts, anything?

 

For payment, there really aren't many options.  Sending cash is risky.  PayPal will support the buyer in most cases.  Credit cards can have charge backs.  Checks can be cancelled up to 6 months after the purchase.  There really isn't any protection for a seller.

 

If I were to be selling these boards by the hundreds, the loss of $123.00 would almost be lost in the noise.  I think I sold 14 of them.  While $123.00 isn't the end of the world, once you factor in design time, it is still a hit.

 

As a result of all of this, I am thinking the best option here may be to "self insure".  USPS won't pay anything as long as they can prove it's been delivered.  (They certainly didn't pay here because it was delivered.)  PayPal will bend the seller over in a heartbeat. 

 

My thought is to raise the shipping rates so as to send everything so that it requires a signature.  I think it's an extra $4 or $5 each.  I don't need a return receipt.....just some proof that it wasn't left somewhere to be stolen.  (The problem here is that people aren't always home and may have to go to the Post Office to pick it up.)  This could be coupled with an extra few dollars as self insurance. 

 

Yes, this would be an increase.  But also consider that each board is hand assembled.  Testing can take minutes to hours.  With some boards, I literally do let them run something like Prince of Persia for an hour to make sure that the board is working fine.  I really don't like it when somebody receives a board that has problems.  (I know they don't like it, either.)  Another example is a set with the 1090XL main board and cards.  The total time to assemble was 4 to 5 hours for 4 boards and the 50 pin cable.  If the memory card, for example, had some problems, it's easy to add an extra hour to find and fix a bad connection or two.  (It's not uncommon to have to troubleshoot a bad connection on a hand assembled board.)

 

Finding out that I am responsible for somebody stealing a package off of a customer's porch is a real kick in the teeth.

 

 

Edited May 16 by reifsnyderb

[Geister]

As we found out, requiring a signature is no guarantee that the delivery person will bother to get one.  Shipping is just a big scam industry these days.  Insurance as a business has always be a scam.  I don't know how you can ensure that something can be delivered safely and inexpensively.  

 

Perhaps one of the Amazon Locker systems would help?

[reifsnyderb]

6 minutes ago, Geister said:

As we found out, requiring a signature is no guarantee that the delivery person will bother to get one.  Shipping is just a big scam industry these days.  Insurance as a business has always be a scam.  I don't know how you can ensure that something can be delivered safely and inexpensively.  

 

Perhaps one of the Amazon Locker systems would help?

I had tracking but wasn't requiring a signature at that time.  One issue is that if a signature is always required, it may inconvenience the customer.

 

I don't know anything about the Amazon Locker systems.  Going through Amazon probably means more paperwork issues and rules to follow.

 

On the other hand, USPS keeps signature confirmation tracking for 1 year.  Since PayPal allows up to 180 days to file a dispute, at least the tracking information would still be available.  Though whether PayPal would honor that tracking would be another issue, of course.

 

See the bottom of this page:

https://faq.usps.com/s/article/USPS-Tracking-The-Basics

 

 

Edited May 17 by reifsnyderb

[+GoldLeader]

When I've sent important documents through the mail,  I just went Certified Mail (Requiring a signature in other words);  Never had an issue.  IMHO, It's the way to go.

 

BTW Really sorry this happened to you but by and large this is a rare occurrence.  Try not to lose hope;  I'm sure the vast majority of the people you've dealt with are good people who appreciate your work.  At least I hope so.

[Overange]

 

Believe it or not, the best delivery service I've found is eBay's international shipping service.

As long as I send my packages to the depot with tracking, they are fully tracked from start to finish.

I once had a parcel go missing in transit within the U.S. The tracking showed it bouncing from state to state for nearly two weeks before it stopped completely.

The buyer informed me about the issue, and I reported it to eBay.

A week later, eBay admitted fault, the buyer was refunded, and I kept my payment.

Here's the best part: a week after the case was closed by eBay, the buyer received the item and was thrilled to get a freebie.

The only downside is that eBay's international shipping is expensive, making it impractical for low-value hobby items.

[_The Doctor__]

The purchaser can opt out of signature if they agree to full responsibility for delivery. That doesn't negate insurance etc. I still can't fathom why insurance doesn't cover theft, but that's the $y$tem these days.

[reifsnyderb]

3 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

The purchaser can opt out of signature if they agree to full responsibility for delivery. That doesn't negate insurance etc. I still can't fathom why insurance doesn't cover theft, but that's the $y$tem these days.

The primary job of any insurance company is not to pay out.

 

Given the evidence I provided, I have no faith that PayPal would be concerned if somebody opts out of a signature then files a dispute.

 

I posted a question about this situation in PayPal's own forums.  So far, there's no response.

Edited May 17 by reifsnyderb

[Overange]

You could always ask in Reddit, some one there will always has an answer  

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I have always required signature required on the stuff I send back if they live in Apartments. There have been some exceptions in that if the buyer knows that packages to their complex have some security with them then I won't. The reason I don't do this by default is because it is and has been explained to me how much of a pain this is for many of my clients. Most of them aren't home when items are delivered and so they have to go to the Post Office to pick up the item. Some of my clients have told me that it can be very difficult for them to go to the PO for similar reasons listed in this thread. Times they are open that conflict with my client's work schedules etc... 

 

So another option in possibly situations like this, is to require them to provide a business address that you can ship the item to or another relative that is home to receive shipped items.

 

[reifsnyderb]

19 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I have always required signature required on the stuff I send back if they live in Apartments. There have been some exceptions in that if the buyer knows that packages to their complex have some security with them then I won't. The reason I don't do this by default is because it is and has been explained to me how much of a pain this is for many of my clients. Most of them aren't home when items are delivered and so they have to go to the Post Office to pick up the item. Some of my clients have told me that it can be very difficult for them to go to the PO for similar reasons listed in this thread. Times they are open that conflict with my client's work schedules etc... 

 

So another option in possibly situations like this, is to require them to provide a business address that you can ship the item to or another relative that is home to receive shipped items.

 

All good points.  Your explanation is the same reason I don't normally require a signature.  It's a royal pain for the customer to deal with.

 

[_The Doctor__]

23 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

another option in possibly situations like this, is to require them to provide a business address that you can ship the item to or another relative that is home to receive shipped items.

I do this, both sending and receiving. Or as mentioned 3rd party to handle it.

[Geister]

Sounds like a business opportunity.  Receiving centers for shipping.  Yes, both Fedex and UPS used to do this, but many have backed away from it.  UPS is outgoing packages only, and Fedex is usually buried in some industrial park.

With the plague of porch pirates, perhaps it's time to revisit this.

[Overange]

5 minutes ago, Geister said:

Sounds like a business opportunity.  Receiving centers for shipping.  Yes, both Fedex and UPS used to do this, but many have backed away from it.  UPS is outgoing packages only, and Fedex is usually buried in some industrial park.

With the plague of porch pirates, perhaps it's time to revisit this.

Here in the UK you have the option to get it sent to your local Gas Station or Local Convenience Store, you get a message with the pick code and off you go to collect it.

[Havok69]

So now we have two thieves...

[Asaki]

On 5/16/2024 at 3:55 PM, reifsnyderb said:

I haven't found a way to appeal this.

When I got ripped off, I had to keep calling Paypal on the phone. It sucked.
Took quite a bit of back and forth to finally get my money back.

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 5/16/2024 at 3:06 PM, CPUWIZ said:

@Victims of porch pirates:  Frequently put Amazon boxes, nicely sealed up, filled with garbage on your porch.  

 

Litterbox contents are useful in this regard.

 

19 hours ago, Geister said:

Sounds like a business opportunity.  Receiving centers for shipping.

 

Amazon was doing this locally at one time under the Amazon Hub name; they handled both dropoff (for returns) and pickup items.

 

Honestly...  It sucked.  No 24-hour access, which meant that if you couldn't make it there during their business hours, you risked having your items sent back after 72 hours.  That was on top of the 10-mile drive to get to it since we didn't have one that was local to us.

 

The biggest problem was when they started doing all of their returns through it with no option to drop off items elsewhere.  On the occasions where I went there, only one person was working the entire location, and that person was split between receiving packages, scanning them in, placing them in the equivalent of P.O. boxes, taking in returns, and having to provide instruction on how all of this worked because Amazon had apparently assumed that people would have been born with an innate understanding of what their processes were to drop off or pick up a package.  Oh, and they didn't issue any sort of physical receipt for dropoffs, because everything was tied to your account.

 

Granted, that's an Amazon problem, and isn't necessarily a flaw with the business model.  However, that location only lasted about 90 days before it was permanently closed and their services returned to being handled by Kohl's and The UPS Store, who do a much better job overall.

 

19 hours ago, Overange said:

Here in the UK you have the option to get it sent to your local Gas Station or Local Convenience Store, you get a message with the pick code and off you go to collect it.

 

We have those as well.  Thing is, thieves have been targetting them for opportunistic robbery when people collect their items.

[_The Doctor__]

7 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

Litterbox contents are useful in this regard.

with a spinner spreader!

[+x=usr(1536)]

7 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

with a spinner spreader!

 

We could market it as brown glitter!  Cats, you're getting an extra can tonight!

[reifsnyderb]

In light of this incident, I've put a stop to my hardware development projects.  I'll continue to sell what's already been developed but am going to dedicate my creative time to another non-computer related project.

Edited May 21 by reifsnyderb

[Overange]

9 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

In light of this incident, I've put a stop to my hardware development projects.  I'll continue to sell what's already been developed but am going to dedicate my creative time to another non-computer related project.

I think I speak for many other members here and we will understand your decision to shift your focus after this incident. 
It's disheartening how a few negative experiences or individuals can really knock you down, especially when they don't realise the immense amount of time and effort that goes into these kinds of projects. 
Your dedication and hard work deserve recognition, and we admire your resilience in choosing to pursue a new creative path. 
Best of luck with your new project, and I hope it brings you as much fulfilment and success as your hardware projects have.

[_The Doctor__]

Hard to hear but understandable. Sorry we could not make the connection during our stay in Harrisburg. Glad to see you are going to pick something else up to do in place of this. Sad it means the end of development. It's always tough when life smacks what we are doing down.

Keep us up to date on your new endeavors, you have my best hopes and wishes in that.