Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Looks to me like scaling effects. If the vertical resolution of the image created by the emulator (e.g. 480p) is different than the output resolution (e.g. 720p), then the image has to be scaled by the emulator/GPU. And if the output resolution is different than the display resolution (e.g. 1080p), the image has to be scaled by the TV again. The last step could be avoided if the image is scaled to 1080p output directly. At least for FHD TVs, maybe for 4K TVs too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 2 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Looks to me like scaling effects. If the vertical resolution of the image created by the emulator (e.g. 480p) is different than the output resolution (e.g. 720p), then the image has to be scaled by the emulator/GPU. And if the output resolution is different than the display resolution (e.g. 1080p), the image has to be scaled by the TV again. The last step could be avoided if the image is scaled to 1080p output directly. At least for FHD TVs, maybe for 4K TVs too. I agree. 1080p output was tried on a test load but had issues. But if it can be fixed, maybe it gets implemented in the future? This would help for certain games. So far this effects Midnight Mutants and Commando (only the secret rooms, the rest is not perfect but good enough). Need to test more 7800 vertical scrolling games and look at the details. However Xevious with similar resolution does not flicker on the 2600+, only the color palette is wrong. It did flicker a lot on real HW. Anyway, for 7800 games the V1.1 was a bug step forwarrd🤗 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Just something I noticed on V1.1 about 2600 PAL 60 games: The TV switches to 50p right after start, so they run on 50Hz? The colors are of course still wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 6 minutes ago, DEANJIMMY said: Just something I noticed on V1.1 about 2600 PAL 60 games: The TV switches to 50p right after start, so they run on 50Hz? Are you sure? Then NTSC games would switch to 50Hz too. Edited January 10 by Thomas Jentzsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Are you sure? Then NTSC games would switch to 50Hz too. No they didn't BUT I was still on the debug load with the Popeye 7800 fix... Reverting back to official V1.1 PAL60 games start again with 60p and wrong colors, everything is fine, false positive, sorry! Edited January 10 by DEANJIMMY 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dionoid Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 17 hours ago, RevEng said: I do see it enabled in the retroarch.cfg in the beta1.1 image I also see that retroarch.cfg file, but I wonder how Stella-specific parameters like audio.preset are passed from RetroArch to Stella. Or maybe the Stella-specific parameters are compiled into the stella_libretro.so core itself? I couldn't find a specific config file for Stella inside the image. Edited January 10 by Dionoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 On 1/9/2024 at 2:29 PM, Ben from Plaion said: update-0104-pacman强制60hz.img 68.85 MB · 7 downloads does this build have z26 palette? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 10 minutes ago, AtariYMás009 said: does this build have z26 palette? I presume so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said: I presume so. all the rest of the games have the same issue with disappearing graphics, just pacman was fixed, but pacman is again standard palette Edited January 10 by AtariYMás009 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 2 minutes ago, AtariYMás009 said: I've just tested it, no it hasn't, standard palette again, same color issues as before: black track on pole position, black floor on space invaders, etc Dont worry about it, it didnt fix what I wanted anyway. Throw it in the trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 23 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said: Sounds like two seperate isssues then, as that build gets rid of missing sprites in pac-man. i can confirm from what I tested that are not separated issues, because this build only fixes pac-man, the rest of the games (including circus convoy presumibly) continue with disappearing sprites issues, so they have the same problem, both pacman and circus convoy Edited January 10 by AtariYMás009 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari_Warlord Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 16 hours ago, Dionoid said: It seems that when a lot of things are happening on the screen plus music is playing, that's when the CPU/GPU currently is not able to keep up. E.g. the intro screen of EPYX California Games on the 2600+ is slower than on original hardware. I'm also keeping my fingers crossed for the audio preset changes to have a positive effect on performance... This may explain what is happening with Journey Escape and Music Machine also. They both have slower music while the screen is busy. Hopefully the audio change will fix these too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TornadoTJ Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 10 hours ago, DEANJIMMY said: TB is not supported on prosystem (7800 mode of 2600+), same with paddles. I hope that will change in the near future! Thanks, that will keep me from chasing my tail on this. I'll sit back and wait. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 6 hours ago, Dionoid said: I also see that retroarch.cfg file, but I wonder how Stella-specific parameters like audio.preset are passed from RetroArch to Stella. Or maybe the Stella-specific parameters are compiled into the stella_libretro.so core itself? I couldn't find a specific config file for Stella inside the image. I have no idea too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dionoid Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 When testing out the 7800 PAL games on the 1.1 firmware, I noticed my 2600+ has troubles keeping up with the emulation. For example in the game Galaga, when I move my ship left and right while the enemies fly into formation, the movement is stuttering and never smooth as on my original 7800. My HDMI TV is displaying at 50Hz, so it should be really smooth, but it isn't. Also I'm having issues with performance of some 2600 games (e.g. EPYX California Games) which other testers don't have. I get the feeling something is wrong with my 2600+ unit. Maybe the CPU/GPU in my machine doesn't have enough power to run the emulated games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 i think that the problem with disappearing sprites is that the console is displaying at less than 50FPS. when I was tersting 1.1 with activision´s grand prix the movement of the edges of the track was even more jittery than the 1.0 version, I think that is omitting some frames or is going at less frames than 50FPS in PAL games. Do you @Ben from Plaionknow if the atari 2600+ is displaying at less than 50FPS? this maybe is the cause of the problem, but i'm obviously not an expert haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 43 minutes ago, Dionoid said: When testing out the 7800 PAL games on the 1.1 firmware, I noticed my 2600+ has troubles keeping up with the emulation. For example in the game Galaga, when I move my ship left and right while the enemies fly into formation, the movement is stuttering and never smooth as on my original 7800. My HDMI TV is displaying at 50Hz, so it should be really smooth, but it isn't. Also I'm having issues with performance of some 2600 games (e.g. EPYX California Games) which other testers don't have. Do you have another HDMI set and/or cable to test with? I'm told that some TV sets aren't always faithful to the mode they're displaying, esp. with regard to 50Hz. Also, what mode is the TV showing the 50Hz display at? 7 hours ago, Dionoid said: I also see that retroarch.cfg file, but I wonder how Stella-specific parameters like audio.preset are passed from RetroArch to Stella. Or maybe the Stella-specific parameters are compiled into the stella_libretro.so core itself? I couldn't find a specific config file for Stella inside the image. No idea here either. I only see/access the prosystem core and dumper. RA is a black box to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Dionoid said: When testing out the 7800 PAL games on the 1.1 firmware, I noticed my 2600+ has troubles keeping up with the emulation. For example in the game Galaga, when I move my ship left and right while the enemies fly into formation, the movement is stuttering and never smooth as on my original 7800. My HDMI TV is displaying at 50Hz, so it should be really smooth, but it isn't. Also I'm having issues with performance of some 2600 games (e.g. EPYX California Games) which other testers don't have. I get the feeling something is wrong with my 2600+ unit. Maybe the CPU/GPU in my machine doesn't have enough power to run the emulated games? I just played PAL Gallaga 7800 until stage 10 on V1.1 and did not see any problems moving my ship🤙 The little flicker when scrolling I see in few PAL 7800 games seems to be a common scaling issue (480p -> 720p -> 1080p) which might disappear if output will be 1080p some day🤔 The only real bad thing I noticed on V1.1 is related to 50Hz 2600 games. Objects jitter while scrolling in River Raid, disappearing shots Solar storm, etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blinky Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Dionoid said: in the game Galaga, when I move my ship left and right while the enemies fly into formation, the movement is stuttering and never smooth as on my original 7800 I loaded the Galaga 7800 PAL rom onto my 2600+ 1.1 and the stuttering I experience is the same issue as with 2600 PAL games. I killed all but one alien so I could just fool around with the ship moving left and right and watch the animations. Animation is smooth for a while and then stutters for several seconds and returns to normal for a while and repeats. I wonder if it's a GPU (rendering) issue especially since I discovered I can configure my PC's graphic card for 50HZ and play PAL 50 Games smooth on my TV using PC Stella. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Karl G Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Another question: I understand that physical AtariVoxes and SaveKeys don't work on this device, and apparently there are issues with Stella's emulation of the save capabilities of these devices on the 2600+. Has this been addressed in an update, or is it planned to be addressed? I realized that it may be a moot point if Penult works if there is no way to save the game. I'm asking because I want to know if I can recommend the 2600+ as a viable way for people without a real Atari to play my game. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 55 minutes ago, DEANJIMMY said: The only real bad thing I noticed on V1.1 is related to 50Hz 2600 games. Objects jitter while scrolling in River Raid, disappearing shots Solar storm, etc.. i think it can be a sort of frameskip or lesser framerate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dionoid Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, RevEng said: Do you have another HDMI set and/or cable to test with? I'm told that some TV sets aren't always faithful to the mode they're displaying, esp. with regard to 50Hz. Also, what mode is the TV showing the 50Hz display at? Yes, I have tested with two HDMI TVs and two cables. Same result for both. The TVs is displaying at 1280x720 p50 and the other one 720p PAL. I guess that's both the same. It's skipping frames almost constantly. Is there a way to force a 7800 PAL game into 60Hz in firmware 1.1? Maybe that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dionoid Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 7 minutes ago, Dionoid said: Is there a way to force a 7800 PAL game into 60Hz in firmware 1.1? Maybe that helps. I just reverted my 2600+ back to firmware 1.0 and my Galaga 7800 PAL is playing much smoother at 60Hz. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 15 minutes ago, Dionoid said: Is there a way to force a 7800 PAL game into 60Hz in firmware 1.1? Maybe that helps. I don't think so. I believe the HDMI mode switching is done in the RA core. 4 minutes ago, Dionoid said: I just reverted my 2600+ back to firmware 1.0 and my Galaga 7800 PAL is playing much smoother at 60Hz. In 1.0 Galaga PAL was mistakenly flagged as NTSC in the dump, so you're running 60fps at 60hz. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben from Plaion Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, Dionoid said: Yes, I have tested with two HDMI TVs and two cables. Same result for both. The TVs is displaying at 1280x720 p50 and the other one 720p PAL. I guess that's both the same. It's skipping frames almost constantly. Is there a way to force a 7800 PAL game into 60Hz in firmware 1.1? Maybe that helps. You know I greatly appreciate all the feedback we've been receiving on 1.1 beta and its all been collected and talked about here internally. I think any more public talk about 50hz PAL should restart once we release a new build here on AA. If its not resolved in a build I get hopefully tomorrow, then I'll ask for a 1.1 beta locked to 60hz so at least PAL 2600 guys can enjoy all the new features without intermittant missing sprites. Its like the level of feedback from you guys outstrips my ability to respond in realtime with development changes and I'm very concerned about this. Lets see what the next couple of weeks brings. I'll be posting any news here on AA first. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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