Atari 2600+ Beta Update 1.1

[DEANJIMMY]

1 hour ago, Blinky said:

I loaded the Galaga 7800 PAL rom onto my 2600+ 1.1 and the stuttering I experience is the same issue as with 2600 PAL games. I killed all but one alien so I could just fool around with the ship moving left and right and watch the animations. Animation is smooth for a while and then stutters for several seconds and returns to normal for a while and repeats. I wonder if it's a GPU (rendering) issue especially since I discovered I can configure my PC's graphic card for 50HZ and play PAL 50 Games smooth on my TV using PC Stella.

Ok, if in Galaga 7800 PAL you just leave one enemy left, you can closely watch your ship...

 

Yeah, sometimes when moving the ship full distance left/right you see two ships very close to each other, sometimes the movement gets slower for very short time.

 

I tried to take a video capture but failed to capture the effect....

 

If I look at the ship, it reminds me on streaming football (soccer) when the output was not 50fps and some motion stuff kicked in to give you faked 200Hz... and a long pass showed a disappearing or jumping ball...

 

Well, the TV runs in gaming mode🤔

 

I read it was smoother when running on 60p on V1.0 but that was due to wrong detection.

 

Maybe I gonna give Cenipede PAL 7800 a try on V1.1🤔

[AtariYMás009]

32 minutes ago, Ben from Plaion said:

If its not resolved in a build I get hopefully tomorrow, then I'll ask for a 1.1 beta locked to 60hz so at least PAL 2600 guys can enjoy all the new features without intermittant missing sprites.

I have no prblem playing my PAL games at 60Hz (obviously a future build with well implemented 50Hz would be wonderful), but my complain is the about the colors, how would you get the Z26 palette working with PAL games only if they are in 60Hz too?

[Ben from Plaion]

23 minutes ago, AtariYMás009 said:

I have no prblem playing my PAL games at 60Hz (obviously a future build with well implemented 50Hz would be wonderful), but my complain is the about the colors, how would you get the Z26 palette working with PAL games only if they are in 60Hz too?

Yes thats one thing that needs to be ensured. I would hope that the cart inserted would play at the correct FPS just with 60hz final display, elements like z26 for PAL games should remain as thats a positive part of the 1.1 beta update, I mean who wants to play Enduro with a black road.

[DEANJIMMY]

1 hour ago, Ben from Plaion said:

You know I greatly appreciate all the feedback we've been receiving on 1.1 beta and its all been collected and talked about here internally. I think any more public talk about 50hz PAL should restart once we release a new build here on AA.

 

If its not resolved in a build I get hopefully tomorrow, then I'll ask for a 1.1 beta locked to 60hz so at least PAL 2600 guys can enjoy all the new features without intermittant missing sprites.

 

Its like the level of feedback from you guys outstrips my ability to respond in realtime with development changes and I'm very concerned about this. Lets see what the next couple of weeks brings. I'll be posting any news here on AA first.

I just tested Galaga and Centipede 7800 PAL on V1.1 and when moving fast left/right the sprites sometimes stutter.

 

I tested with V1.0 and a debug load from @raz0red to fix Popeye both games.

My TV showed 60p and Centipede moved smoother left/right. In that game the effect is more visible. So for 7800 PAL games a 60Hz output could be a good step!

 

Said before, paddle game Kaboom 2600 PAL worked better with 50Hz (smoother left/right move) but others not.

 

Looking forward to the new load but maybe 60Hz output might be a good choice at least for Prosystem PAL.

[Giles N]

@Ben from Plaion

 

Hi there,

Just wanted to throw out a thought, - since production and release decisions may take time and ‘greenlighting’.

 
The 2600+ upon release got the reviews it got. You may have a better overview on the total average score and actual impact than me.

 

My impression is the reception was mixed. Some loved its retro-feel and thats what they were in it for, others wanted broad compatibility, and these were often a disappointed or a bit ‘meh’.

 

I don’t say this to drag things down, but an idea to address that, could be to set a date for celebrating a complete line-up of the fixed issues: a release of a official firmware update 1.1 + 7800 pad, with a release of some really solid 7800 title, - either a 7800 cart with 10-in-1, or a top title or even this together with yet another 10-in-1 or top-title for the 2600.

 

All the stuff mentioned above - when everything is released (the firmware-update with link, really —> asap, as isolated thing, mind you) should be packed in new sets and sent to reviewers on YouTube and press: new updated 2600+ with euro-pad and new game releases, for review of the ‘first update total’.

 

This may help get more attention on the 2600+, and get the initially dissatisfied folks to come back onboard and perhaps find it much more what they wanted.

 

It would also draw out (in time) the attention the 2600+ will get, and any attention is sort of important to accumulate and keep building interest.

 

What this (the 2600+) have that the NES mini and Genesis/MD mini etc don’t have, is the potential for expanding and expanding the library, while it bypasses the issues of old tv and console regions.

Many have complained it didn’t have inbuilt games, - only a 10-in-1 cart. Providing a 10-in-1  7800 cart, would - in future re-packagings - make it a retro console coming with 20 games for 2 systems.

 

Just wanted to share my thoughts on this as I wait for the (first) update, the concept being that as the first release may have gotten mixed reviews some places, the first update and additional releases can be used to try to re-boost the interest in the entire thing on every area, 2600-compatibility, 7800-compatibility, 7800 pad, more games… and the full set of updates and additions shouldn’t go unnoticed. A little fireworks when every major update and addition is out there, may get the gaming-worlds impressions really reignited. 

[DirtyHairy]

17 hours ago, Atari_Warlord said:

This may explain what is happening with Journey Escape and Music Machine also.  They both have slower music while the screen is busy.  Hopefully the audio change will fix these too.

Audio on plain Stella will start to stutter when the CPU cannot keep up, and if the GPU is too slow you would see dropped frames, but audio and overall speed would not be affected, and you would see an uneven flicker on flickered sprites and slight "jump" in movement. However, I have no idea how RetroArch enters the equation here. It is possible that it dynamically resamples to avoid skipping if the host cannot keep up, and I've no idea whether it uses Stella's scheduler (or something similar) which renders and emulates on two different threads (which is why Stella only skips frames when the GPU is tool slow).

 

All in all, the presence of RA in the equation complicates things and makes it very hard to draw any conclusions from these observations, at least for us Stella developers (the RA driver is not maintained by us).

[H.Fraenkel]

I can confirm that Joust PAL works after the update. Yippee!

[DirtyHairy]

What I can say is that issues with GPU and CPU performance on some games are definitely possible. I encountered and dealt with these on the R77, which has a very similarly specced CPU with a similar Mali GPU. I got around those only by playing tricks with texture swapping and by enabling PGO in the build. However, on the R77 these issues only affected DPC+/CDF games and very few other games that do peculiar tricks (like elaborate versions of the starfield effect) that cause the TIA to execute costly code paths on every line. The activity on screen is not a good indicator for CPU usage. The only way to find out would be to get a serial terminal and keep top running while the emulator runs.

[mastic_man]

While still waiting for Champ Games Gorf Arcade & Scramble to arrive from the last chance sale i decided to do some tinkering.

I have burned the test rom of Gorf arcade on to an epprom and put it on home brew test board so the dumper will recognise as a standard cart. 
With the 2600+ being an emulator it ran the rom straight away without any issues. 

I have also since tested 
Mappy demo - works
Scramble demo - works
Super cobra demo - works
Gorf arcade full rom - works

Working with controller issues. 
Zoo keeper and Qyx full rom load but controllers won’t work on either.
Wizard of Wor demo loads but again controller doesn’t work.

I have been in contact with John and he says the controller issues may be down do the quadtari code which could be altered to support the 2600+
He is sending some more games over to test so will update this post when I have tried the rest of them. 

So now we know Champ games can be made to work on the 2600+ 
 

 

[Happytoe]

I'm personally hoping to see a flood of new 7800 games designed specifically to work well on 2600+ could be very exciting to see this platform not be considered as just retro.  

[+swlovinist]

11 minutes ago, Happytoe said:

I'm personally hoping to see a flood of new 7800 games designed specifically to work well on 2600+ could be very exciting to see this platform not be considered as just retro.  

I for one am excited that the 2600+ can play 7800 games utilizing YM sound.   @darryl1970 has programmed a wonderful version of Blockem Sockem that I will try to get out before the end of the year.   

[+sramirez2008]

5 minutes ago, swlovinist said:

I for one am excited that the 2600+ can play 7800 games utilizing YM sound.   @darryl1970 has programmed a wonderful version of Blockem Sockem that I will try to get out before the end of the year.   

Looking forward to 7800 Blockem Sockem.

Yep. I was surprised to see/hear it running YM with Pac-Man Collection 40th Anniversary Edition.

[Ben from Plaion]

17 hours ago, Giles N said:

@Ben from Plaion

 

Hi there,

Just wanted to throw out a thought, - since production and release decisions may take time and ‘greenlighting’.

 
The 2600+ upon release got the reviews it got. You may have a better overview on the total average score and actual impact than me.

 

My impression is the reception was mixed. Some loved its retro-feel and thats what they were in it for, others wanted broad compatibility, and these were often a disappointed or a bit ‘meh’.

 

I don’t say this to drag things down, but an idea to address that, could be to set a date for celebrating a complete line-up of the fixed issues: a release of a official firmware update 1.1 + 7800 pad, with a release of some really solid 7800 title, - either a 7800 cart with 10-in-1, or a top title or even this together with yet another 10-in-1 or top-title for the 2600.

 

All the stuff mentioned above - when everything is released (the firmware-update with link, really —> asap, as isolated thing, mind you) should be packed in new sets and sent to reviewers on YouTube and press: new updated 2600+ with euro-pad and new game releases, for review of the ‘first update total’.

 

This may help get more attention on the 2600+, and get the initially dissatisfied folks to come back onboard and perhaps find it much more what they wanted.

 

It would also draw out (in time) the attention the 2600+ will get, and any attention is sort of important to accumulate and keep building interest.

 

What this (the 2600+) have that the NES mini and Genesis/MD mini etc don’t have, is the potential for expanding and expanding the library, while it bypasses the issues of old tv and console regions.

Many have complained it didn’t have inbuilt games, - only a 10-in-1 cart. Providing a 10-in-1  7800 cart, would - in future re-packagings - make it a retro console coming with 20 games for 2 systems.

 

Just wanted to share my thoughts on this as I wait for the (first) update, the concept being that as the first release may have gotten mixed reviews some places, the first update and additional releases can be used to try to re-boost the interest in the entire thing on every area, 2600-compatibility, 7800-compatibility, 7800 pad, more games… and the full set of updates and additions shouldn’t go unnoticed. A little fireworks when every major update and addition is out there, may get the gaming-worlds impressions really reignited. 

Its had a good start, certainly had a bigger then expected positive response from mainstream press and influencers. The hardcore are a bit more hard to please (understandably). We just need to get the software upto best in class, which you can see we are moving to then its all about the games.

 

I know what needs to be done, its just doing it. 😀

[tradyblix]

You can make a fantastic, great TV show, and there will still be 10-100 youtube "influencer" channels chasing.... (not sure what. clout ? money ? no cap as the kids say) by making negative videos. This was NOT a thing 10 years ago and is just another sad part of our society. So now people's opinons on youtube I trust much less as a result. 

 

This is also the same for new products, anything that gets attention, every tom, dick and harry wants to get up and act like they're an expert, telling you their opinion because they have a camera and an editor. It's whatever. 

Edited January 11 by tradyblix

[tradyblix]

1 hour ago, sramirez2008 said:

Looking forward to 7800 Blockem Sockem.

Yep. I was surprised to see/hear it running YM with Pac-Man Collection 40th Anniversary Edition.

I'm looking for this cart (Pac Man collection, the one that works on 2600+) if anyone wants to sell me one

Edited January 11 by tradyblix

[+D Train]

1 hour ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Its had a good start,

are you going to release sales figs, or are those going to be in annual reports?  or is that proprietary info?

 

as always, it's interesting to see how the perception compares to the actual numbers.

 

but I understand if no one wants to release that info publicly.

[Ben from Plaion]

42 minutes ago, D Train said:

are you going to release sales figs, or are those going to be in annual reports?  or is that proprietary info?

 

as always, it's interesting to see how the perception compares to the actual numbers.

 

but I understand if no one wants to release that info publicly.

Ha that question is for above my pay grade. 

[Mi1ez]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:55 PM, LS650 said:

My impression (and it's only my impression) is that Atari are working mightily to get a satisfactory firmware update that is not merely beta.  The easiest way to get updates to the most users is with Windows.  I'm sure they're aware that there is a desire for updates to be able to non-Windows users, but that imposes a whole new level of complexity.  

For a firmware update?  What kind of complexity?  What would make serial communications over USB any more complex across platforms?  Windows being the weirdest one of the bunch with its need for a special driver for that chipset is something most other platforms like Linux and Macintosh don't need.  Automated builds targeting a couple of other architectures isn't hard (that's actually my primary job).  I've worked with firmware updates for projects I've worked on myself so I find that that's a really bizarre statement.  It would have been even better if they'd supported a flash drive update so that you didn't even need a host to flash it but now THAT is understandably adding complexity (but would make life universally so much better for 100% of the customers).

Edited January 12 by Mi1ez

[Thomas Jentzsch]

On 1/5/2024 at 4:55 AM, LS650 said:

My impression (and it's only my impression) is that Atari are working mightily to get a satisfactory firmware update that is not merely beta.  The easiest way to get updates to the most users is with Windows.  I'm sure they're aware that there is a desire for updates to be able to non-Windows users, but that imposes a whole new level of complexity.  

One could write the software platform independent. E.g. Stella and the Harmony Programming Tool are written for Window, Linux and MacOS.

[Blinky]

I wonder if people realize that the 2600+ hardware is (mainly) developed by chinese companies and it must be developed fast and costs must be kept low so  they use their knowledge and tools they have available to do so. When a manufacturer of some chinese MCU only offers Windows tools they'll just have to use those.

 

Being able to update the 2600+ is a feature of the chips used in the 2600+ and they rely on the tools supplied by the Manufacturers.  There is no luxury of creating new tools for other OSes for a niche product because it would cost too much. One thing they could do though is to open more up and make use of communities expertise. There are all kinds of experts here (not saying I'm an expert).

 

Edited January 12 by Blinky

[DirtyHairy]

7 hours ago, Mi1ez said:

It would have been even better if they'd supported a flash drive update so that you didn't even need a host to flash it but now THAT is understandably adding complexity

Imo that would be the best way to distribute FW updates in absence of a SD slot, and it wouldn't be an unsurmountable obstacle: check for a thumb drive on boot, mount it, check for a signed firmware update, flash it. All very doable.

[DirtyHairy]

5 minutes ago, Blinky said:

I wonder if people realize that the 2600+ hardware is (mainly) developed by chinese companies and it must be developed fast and costs must be kept low so  they use their knowledge and tools they have available to do so. When a manufacturer of some chinese MCU only offers Windows tools they'll just have to use those.

 

Being able to update the 2600+ is a feature of the chips used in the 2600+ and they rely on the tools supplied by the Manufacturers. There is no luxury of creating new tools for other OSes for a niche product because it would cost too much. Once thing they could do though is to open more up and make use of communities expertise. There are all kinds of experts here (not saying I'm an expert).

 

You can always flash from the embedded linux system, without depending on any firmware upload protocol specific to the SOC. There is readymade tooling (i.e. rauc) for doing that, including signature validation, and you can even implement rollback mechanisms in case the update fails to boot if you spend a bit of extra flash.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

16 minutes ago, DirtyHairy said:

Imo that would be the best way to distribute FW updates in absence of a SD slot, and it wouldn't be an unsurmountable obstacle: check for a thumb drive on boot, mount it, check for a signed firmware update, flash it. All very doable.

But how would you attach a thumb drive now? Via an OTG cable? Is that even supported by the OS used?

[DirtyHairy]

29 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

But how would you attach a thumb drive now? Via an OTG cable? Is that even supported by the OS used?

Afaik the OTG port of the rk3128 is exposed on the 2600+ USB port (the one used to connect the power brick), this is how the firmware is updated. I have not tried (nor do I want to try 😏), but I am pretty sure that the OTG controller is supported by linux --- should be only a matter of kernel config, and then you can attach a thumb drive with a Y cable.

Edited January 12 by DirtyHairy

[+darryl1970]

19 hours ago, swlovinist said:

I for one am excited that the 2600+ can play 7800 games utilizing YM sound.   @darryl1970 has programmed a wonderful version of Blockem Sockem that I will try to get out before the end of the year.   

I am not aware of any physical 7800 cart boards that can handle Yamaha sound at this time. The great thing about this is that, while the Block'Em cart will not include any extra on-board sound chips, the 2600+ allow the game to utilize the game's Yamaha sound capabilities from that cartridge. Very nice!

 

On a side note:

I have an early TIA Pac-Man Collection cart. Were the earliest PMC (Not 40th!!) carts TIA only? I assume that POKEY sound was a later enhancement. I also assume that later carts auto-detected whether POKEY was on the cart and adapted to the hardware. Maybe @PacManPlus would be able to answer this best.

 

I do not have a 2600+, but I am wondering how it would handle my cart.