Experimental 2600+ Firmware and Dumper

[JetmanUK]

1 hour ago, JetmanUK said:

This does bring the whole palette discussion up again. Perhaps the standard 2600 NTSC palette needs to be used, I wonder what prompted the change?

 

@Trebor made some good points yesterday when discussing PAL 7800 Fatal Run's wonky colours and how we shouldn't mess with palette settings to accomoodate one game, that would of course be madness, I would never want that. Why was the 2600 NTSC palette changed?

 

And that brings us back to 2600 PAL, that was changed due to Pole Position having a dodgy road colour, but should we have changed that too? For one game? I remember @Thomas Jentzsch being against it at the time, stating that there was another path to take. I do also recall that many pushed for PAL Z26 colours (including me), in hindsight I think that may have been an error. @Ben from Plaion

 

EDIT

Looking at Stella on my laptop again with it set to the standard palette Pole Postion is fine, sure the road is dark, but its not a problem. I think many early users of the 2600 Plus had their brightness too low or some funky filter setting on. The PAL palette should be reverted to the standard one in IMO. I can post screenshots. We shoudld revisit this issue please @RevEng 

2600 Pole Position

 

Standard PAL Palette (more accurate emulation and as the developer intended!)

Perfectly visable

 

 

 

PAL Z26 Palette (yeah it makes it look more like the NTSC game, but this is the PAL game and we don't change the palette for one game as this makes all other games less accurate!)

 

 

Both NTSC & PAL palettes should be the standard one, I feel, lets discuss! @RevEng @raz0red @Ben from Plaion

Edited Tuesday at 05:31 PM by JetmanUK

[Thomas Jentzsch]

28 minutes ago, JetmanUK said:

I remember @Thomas Jentzsch being against it at the time, stating that there was another path to take.

Yes I did, but had no success.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

1 hour ago, MrChickenz said:

I was under the impression it was just PAL games that needed adjusting. Or is it one and the same? If PAL is adjusted does it affect NTSC also or were adjustments made to NTSC?

No, they have separate palettes. But when you default to z26, then both PAL and NTSC default to z26 palettes.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

On 6/23/2024 at 6:43 PM, mmmmbeh said:

Thank you so much for getting Smurf to work on this new revision!

Did your cart not work previously?

 

@Ben from Plaion How did you get it (WF8) detected for Stella? There is no working auto detection yet.

[JetmanUK]

14 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Yes I did, but had no success.

You were right Thomas. We were wrong. 

[JetmanUK]

12 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

No, they have separate palettes. But when you default to z26, then both PAL and NTSC default to z26 palettes.

I think they should both be standard. You Stella guys made the palette standard for a reason. 👍🏻

 

[RevEng]

23 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Did your cart not work previously?

 

@Ben from Plaion How did you get it (WF8) detected for Stella? There is no working auto detection yet.

We're not auto-detecting the wf8 format. We're specifically looking for the smurf cart md5.

[JetmanUK]

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

No, they have separate palettes. But when you default to z26, then both PAL and NTSC default to z26 palettes.

So we break the NTSC palette by using the wrong PAL palette (z26)...

Hmmm, this is the best argument to set the emulation to standard colours for everything!

(And the issue that PAL z26 is wrong too!)

Edited Tuesday at 05:55 PM by JetmanUK

[Thomas Jentzsch]

12 minutes ago, RevEng said:

We're not auto-detecting the wf8 format. We're specifically looking for the smurf cart md5.

In Stella? Or how do you make Stella aware?

[RevEng]

17 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

In Stella? Or how do you make Stella aware?

We didn't update stella to the latest version with WF8 support. We just patch the game from wF8 to F8, which is trivial.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

20 minutes ago, RevEng said:

We didn't update stella to the latest version with WF8 support. We just patch the game from wF8 to F8, which is trivial.

Smart! 👍 

[DEANJIMMY]

2 hours ago, JetmanUK said:

2600 Pole Position

 

Standard PAL Palette (more accurate emulation and as the developer intended!)

Perfectly visable

 

 

 

PAL Z26 Palette (yeah it makes it look more like the NTSC game, but this is the PAL game and we don't change the palette for one game as this makes all other games less accurate!)

 

 

Both NTSC & PAL palettes should be the standard one, I feel, lets discuss! @RevEng @raz0red @Ben from Plaion

Well, the pic above is from Stella on a laptop, right?

 

Pole Position PAL with the palette from 1.0 was unplayable on the 2600+

HERO PAL had a level which was almost black in black and Battlezone PAL looked very bad (even worse than on original HW).

So z26 for PAL games was a good choice!

 

We had z26 for PAL very long time and it was a necessary change and worked fine.

From the 1st page of this thread I guess the NTSC palette got changed in x3? Why?

So you could have z26 for PAL and anything else for NTSC as on x2 and earlier?

 

If I compare Pitfall! I have brown tree spines on PAL and dark brown/black on NTSC.

I didn't notice until now but the problems with Pole Position, HERO,  Battlezone, etc. were hard to not notice.

 

Reverting PAL to standard is no option. You can't compare the Stella PC output with the 2600+ output for some reason.

 

 

[shane857]

23 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Maybe, but there is no technical reason and I am not aware of any other.

Secret Quest PAL plays fine, and also the colour/BW switch works as it should on 1.1 r4 to bring up the items menu. 

[JetmanUK]

17 minutes ago, DEANJIMMY said:

Well, the pic above is from Stella on a laptop, right?

 

Pole Position PAL with the palette from 1.0 was unplayable on the 2600+

HERO PAL had a level which was almost black in black and Battlezone PAL looked very bad (even worse than on original HW).

So z26 for PAL games was a good choice!

 

We had z26 for PAL very long time and it was a necessary change and worked fine.

From the 1st page of this thread I guess the NTSC palette got changed in x3? Why?

So you could have z26 for PAL and anything else for NTSC as on x2 and earlier?

 

If I compare Pitfall! I have brown tree spines on PAL and dark brown/black on NTSC.

I didn't notice until now but the problems with Pole Position, HERO,  Battlezone, etc. were hard to not notice.

 

Reverting PAL to standard is no option. You can't compare the Stella PC output with the 2600+ output for some reason.

 

 

Yes it's from my laptop, a screen grab btw and not a photo of the screen, so that's what it looks like. If anyone looking at it can't see the road (I'm not saying you said that) then it's their display. 

 

However, as this is how Stella displays it then it would be a good idea to look at the pic and check their 2600 Plus against it, to calibrate their TV. Of course we can't do that right now as we have the z26 palette. 

 

Why would the Plus display it any different from my laptop? They are both Stella. Remember what I posted is not a photo of my laptops screen, that is key, it was a screen grab.

 

EDIT:

It could have just been a bug previously, the driver has been re written. I think the standard palette issue was a red herring. Also people with incorrectly calibrated TVs. 

Edited Tuesday at 07:08 PM by JetmanUK

[DEANJIMMY]

6 minutes ago, JetmanUK said:

Yes it's from my laptop, a screen grab btw and not a photo of the screen, so that's what it looks like. If anyone looking at it can't see the road (I'm not saying you said that) then it's their display. 

 

However, as this is how Stella displays it then it would be a good idea to look at the pic and check their 2600 Plus against it, to calibrate their TV. Or course we can't do that right now as we have the z26 palette. 

 

Why would the Plus display it any different from my laptop? They are both Stella. Remember what I posted is not a photo of my laptops screen, that is key, it was a screen grab.

I guess you don't get an aceptable picture with the 2600+ hdmi output on the majority of TVs.

On my Samsung I could not see the tires,  what ever I switched off. In game mode you still can disable/enable some contrast and blackness stuff.

 

How ever, I can not understand why we can't have different palettes for PAL/NTSC?

They are different anyway. On 1.0 both were standard, the PAL z26 and NTSC standard.

The NTSC pallette got changed in X3, why?

Keep z26 for PAL and adjust only NTSC.

Guess, I did not understand the root cause of the discussion yet. Maybe I scroll back and read again...

[JetmanUK]

18 minutes ago, DEANJIMMY said:

Well, the pic above is from Stella on a laptop, right?

 

Pole Position PAL with the palette from 1.0 was unplayable on the 2600+

HERO PAL had a level which was almost black in black and Battlezone PAL looked very bad (even worse than on original HW).

So z26 for PAL games was a good choice!

 

We had z26 for PAL very long time and it was a necessary change and worked fine.

From the 1st page of this thread I guess the NTSC palette got changed in x3? Why?

So you could have z26 for PAL and anything else for NTSC as on x2 and earlier?

 

If I compare Pitfall! I have brown tree spines on PAL and dark brown/black on NTSC.

I didn't notice until now but the problems with Pole Position, HERO,  Battlezone, etc. were hard to not notice.

 

Reverting PAL to standard is no option. You can't compare the Stella PC output with the 2600+ output for some reason.

 

 

Do you own PAL 7800 Fatal Run? It so can you please play the level that was causing another user an issue whereby they could not see the road? If you can't see the road then perhaps your display is not correctly calibrated/has a weird setting on. Is it a Samsung TV? I believe it was a Samsung setting. 

[JetmanUK]

Just now, DEANJIMMY said:

I guess you don't get an aceptable picture with the 2600+ hdmi output on the majority of TVs.

On my Samsung I could not see the tires,  what ever I switched off. In game mode you still can disable/enable some contrast and blackness stuff.

 

How ever, I can not understand why we can't have different palettes for PAL/NTSC?

They are different anyway. On 1.0 both were standard, the PAL z26 and NTSC standard.

The NTSC pallette got changed in X3, why?

Keep z26 for PAL and adjust only NTSC.

Guess, I did not understand the root cause of the discussion yet. Maybe I scroll back and read again...

I guess no one noted the issue until @MrChickenz brought it to our attention. 

[JetmanUK]

@Ben from Plaion @raz0red @RevEng

 

I'd be willing to test a version of the latest experimental firmware but with the colours set to standard palette, I would share my findings here for both PAL and NTSC games without bias, no changes to my display settings, just as I run it now. I don't have an agenda here, I just want this machine to be the best it can and I want to help. 😊

 

[DEANJIMMY]

3 minutes ago, JetmanUK said:

Do you own PAL 7800 Fatal Run? It so can you please play the level that was causing another user an issue whereby they could not see the road? If you can't see the road then perhaps your display is not correctly calibrated/has a weird setting on. Is it a Samsung TV? I believe it was a Samsung setting. 

The settings which caused the 7800 trouble are off on my Samsung.

So I did not have s solution.

 

Anyway, @MrChickenz says NTSC was fine on x2 and got changed on x3.

 

So keep z26 for PAL and fix NTSC or just revert it back, depending on the reason to do it.

 

Since we have z26 for PAL, the games look more similar to my Jr.

 

PAL people were happy with z26 for months, so the x3 change for NTSC is what should be looked after.

[JetmanUK]

For comparison here is PAL Pole Position on my light sixer. 

 

 

Looks similar to my laptop screen grab doesn't it?

I think the standard palette with worse case some other slight software tweak is required.

 

Remember, there has been a lot of other changes since 1.0 firmware, it could have been a different issue, it's worth investigating. 

 

EDIT This is running through a Retrotink. It has a slight blue tint, I think perhaps I need to adjust my settings, I was messing with that input for moviecart yesterday, perhaps I left it that way. Either way you can see the road is dark.

 

 

EDIT OF THE EDIT

This is a photo with my TV set to how I use the light sixer for games. I had left it on my MovieCart settings. Doh! 

Edited Tuesday at 07:37 PM by JetmanUK

[DEANJIMMY]

24 minutes ago, JetmanUK said:

@Ben from Plaion @raz0red @RevEng

 

I'd be willing to test a version of the latest experimental firmware but with the colours set to standard palette, I would share my findings here for both PAL and NTSC games without bias, no changes to my display settings, just as I run it now. I don't have an agenda here, I just want this machine to be the best it can and I want to help. 😊

 

@raz0red @RevEng

I don't see that 2600 PAL and NTSC palettes are linked?

 

You changed PAL 2600 months ago and people were happy.

 

NTSC 2600 was standard and @MrChickenz was happy until x2.

So, the change of NTSC in x3 caused the trouble for NTSC. 

 

if you change PAL back to standard, many will be unlucky, as I expect there are too many TV out there which can't display Pole Position and other games(!) correctly. It doesn't help if 70% could do with the right settings.

 

And there is no need to do this, as PAL and NTSC do not seem to be linked, right?

The please change NTSC again but don't touch PAL.

 

And the 7800 PAL palette is also seperate and not linked to aby 2600 palette, right?

Then please don't adjust it, it is fine!

Have not tried Fatal run yet but I am quite sure it will be fine on my TV, as I have mentioned settings off.

Edited Tuesday at 07:39 PM by DEANJIMMY

[JetmanUK]

1 minute ago, DEANJIMMY said:

@raz0red @RevEng

I don't see that 2600 PAL and NTSC palettes are linked?

 

You changed PAL 2600 months ago and people were happy.

 

NTSC 2600 was standard and @MrChickenz was happy until x2.

So, the change of NTSC in x3 caused the trouble for NTSC. 

 

if you change PAL back to standard, many will be unlucky, as I expect there are too many TV out there which can't display Pole Position and other games(!) correctly. It doesn't help if 70% could do with the right settings.

 

And there is no need to do this, as PAL and NTSC does not seem to be linked, right?

The please change NTSC again but don't touch PAL.

 

And the 7800 PAL palette is also seperate and not linked to aby 2600 palette, right?

Then please don't adjust it, it is fine!

Have not tried Fatal run yet but I am quite sure it will be fine on my TV, as I have mentioned settings off.

Please try Fatal Run 7800

 

Even if that works well for you the fact still remains that a lot has changed since 1.0. It's worth testing the latest firmware with the standard colours. 

[MrChickenz]

I do prefer the colors in 1.1x-r2. If this is where I have to stay then go on without me. No Pitfall II for me.

I guess I’ll just go play some Freeway with the switch set to BW and hope I don’t get run over! So long everyone!

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:59 PM by MrChickenz

[JetmanUK]

2 minutes ago, MrChickenz said:

Not to make things more complicated. Is it possible to have 1.1x-4 NTSC Firmware and 1.1x-4 PAL Firmware. They have this when downloading ROMs NTSC and PAL versions everyone understands the difference. 

I feel we should test to see if we can get one combined version to run in the standard palette for both first. 

 

If that didn't work out then yeah a version with standard (call it NTSC) and a version with z26 (call it PAL if you must).

 

I'd try the NTSC out then for sure and see if the standard palette worked fine for PAL. 👍🏻

 

You are right that we are used to different region versions. Good point! 🤟🏻

[DEANJIMMY]

1 minute ago, JetmanUK said:

Please try Fatal Run 7800

 

Even if that works well for you the fact still remains that a lot has changed since 1.0. It's worth testing the latest firmware with the standard colours. 

As they even fix now the colors of more and more PAL60 games, which is great, I want to move forward and not backwards.

 

But if I get an x5 with standard PAL and NTSC palette, I could do a quick test with Pole Position, HERO and Battlezone PAL on 3 TVs and compare Pitfall NTSC 😊

 

On the other hand, I was happy with z26 and don't want to test the other 200 games again😉

 

Therefore, I do not realy want to go backwards, and repeat all the tests...