Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 5 hours ago, DEANJIMMY said: "If you've ever seen little black lines appear at the left edge of the screen while you're playing a VCS game, those are bits of the game's code where the program is taking too much time doing other calculations, and it can't draw on the screen, leaving it blank" This is totally wrong. The black lines are coming from mid screen object repositioning. So that you can use the same object (player, missile or ball) more than once. They are also called "HMOVE-Blanks". 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 26 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: This is totally wrong. The black lines are coming from mid screen object repositioning. So that you can use the same object (player, missile or ball) more than once. They are also called "HMOVE-Blanks". Obi Wan has spoken! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2LTIME6100 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 On 7/6/2024 at 12:55 PM, JetmanUK said: If you have updated to r3 successfully then I would say keep going, get it on the latest one. Most disappearing sprite issues have been noted as issues with peoples TV's trying to do some anti flicker filtering, but yeah, you aren't on the latest firmware... so update and tell us what you find... but check those TV settings too! Share your findings on here when you have done the above, as feedback helps the devs out. I have now updated to FW r6 and Dumper x.03. The issues IMG_0849.mov with Frogger and Joust PAL remain unchanged, flickering and disappearing sprites, tested on various TVs in game mode. I was able to record a short video of Joust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) 8 minutes ago, 2LTIME6100 said: I have now updated to FW r6 and Dumper x.03. The issues IMG_0849.mov 9.68 MB · 0 downloads with Frogger and Joust PAL remain unchanged, flickering and disappearing sprites, tested on various TVs in game mode. I was able to record a short video of Joust. I just loaded up PAL Frogger and Joust on Stella on my laptop and both games suffer from flicker. I assume this is just mirroring how the games looked on original hardware, then on top of that your TVs are handling the flicker in a way that makes it slightly worse. Edited July 16 by JetmanUK 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) 12 minutes ago, 2LTIME6100 said: I have now updated to FW r6 and Dumper x.03. The issues IMG_0849.mov 9.68 MB · 0 downloads with Frogger and Joust PAL remain unchanged, flickering and disappearing sprites, tested on various TVs in game mode. I was able to record a short video of Joust. I have the exact same issue, doesn't Matter which TV I use, the problem persists, even when enabling Game mode and dissablig aditional settings. I talked about this with @raz0redand a possible sollution could be enabling phosphor efect in a future build Edited July 16 by AtariYMás009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2LTIME6100 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) Flickering in some games is certainly normal. Asteroids, for example, flickers a lot on the 2600+, but you hardly notice it on the 2600jr. In Joust and Frogger (you can see in my Joust Video) entire sprites disappear from time to time, which didn't happen on the original hardware. Edited July 16 by 2LTIME6100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) Ok, I have both a PAL and NTSC Joust, I've just tried the PAL copy, ans yes, there is some flicker, more than I just saw when I played it on Stella on my laptop. I'm afraid I don't have a PAL Frogger to try, but yeah, PAL Joust seems a little flickery. Next was NTSC Joust... Also looks flickery! In both cases I didn't notice a full disappearance. Those two aside I threw in River Raid. Now I would usually play the superior NTSC version but I thought I should check out the PAL version. The scrolling seemed really juddery, how is PAL River Raid for everyone yone else? EDIT: I was hot swapping carts when I saw the juddery River Raid issue. A power off and back on and it was much better. Edited July 16 by JetmanUK 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad_from_the_80s Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 I only got NTSC Joust yesterday. There is some very slight/rapid flickering of the player sprite, but not really to a degree I think I would even notice or think abnormal. Certainly nothing disappearing from the screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 1 hour ago, AtariYMás009 said: I talked about this with @raz0redand a possible sollution could be enabling phosphor efect in a future build I believe that enabling this for problematic games, and also enabling bilinear filtering for vertically scrolling games to remove the "shimmering" effect of the uneven lines of display would go a long way to removing these kinds of issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2LTIME6100 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 38 minutes ago, JetmanUK said: Ok, I have both a PAL and NTSC Joust, I've just tried the PAL copy, ans yes, there is some flicker, more than I just saw when I played it on Stella on my laptop. I'm afraid I don't have a PAL Frogger to try, but yeah, PAL Joust seems a little flickery. Next was NTSC Joust... Also looks flickery! In both cases I didn't notice a full disappearance. Those two aside I threw in River Raid. Now I would usually play the superior NTSC version but I thought I should check out the PAL version. The scrolling seemed really juddery, how is PAL River Raid for everyone yone else? EDIT: I was hot swapping carts when I saw the juddery River Raid issue. A power off and back on and it was much better. I just tested River Raid PAL. Vertical scrolling is smooth, the horizontally moving helicopters and ships jerk minimally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Fred_M Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) I just checked Joust PAL and Frogger PAL on my systems. Flickering is present for both games on real PAL hardware and the 2600+, but not as bad as in @2LTIME6100's video. The characters are not dissappearing at all. The sprites are flickering "normally", because of the duplication of the sprites. I am using the latest firmware and used the 2600+ and the old 2600 on the same (very cheap) TV. I also made a video, but (I think) because of the diference in framerate (camera vs TV) the flickering is hardly visible. 1st part of the video: Joust on real hardware analog (RF) 2nd part of the video: Joust on the 2600+ 3rd part of the video: Frogger on real hardware analog (RF) 4th part of the video: Frogger on the 2600+ My apologies for the bad video quality 🙂 00008.mp4 Edit: @2LTIME6100 What kind of TV are you using? Modern TVs have all kinds of picture improvements (smooth movements and so on). If you can tell us the brand and model of your TV we can try to find out what enhancements your TV has and how to turn them off. Edited July 16 by Fred_M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrChickenz Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 27 minutes ago, Brad_from_the_80s said: I only got NTSC Joust yesterday. There is some very slight/rapid flickering of the player sprite, but not really to a degree I think I would even notice or think abnormal. Certainly nothing disappearing from the screen. I just tried Joust, I barely noticed on mine it’s not constant it may have flickered three times while playing a round. I really had to stare to see it. I also plugged it in to my Retron 77 even less noticeable I saw a slight flicker once. Mine probably needs a cleaning I’m going to try that to see if it makes any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2LTIME6100 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 I have a 2 year old Phillips TV and a 15 year old Panasonic TV. I have tried different modes on both devices, and I also have two 2600+ consoles. In all combinations, the problems described occur with Frogger and Joust. The flickering in various games when several sprites are at the same height is normal and also constant. The disappearing sprites and the strong flickering in Frogger do not always happen and usually only after you have been playing for a while. Perhaps the problem will be solved with one of the next updates or I will simply buy the NTSC versions at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 I saw that many of you are talking about flicker, which is totaly normal in some games. But the issue that @2LTIME6100and I Talk about is that the sprites sometimes disappear (even with Game mode). The most common examples are venture, frogger, Joust, dark chambers, pac-man, and many others. What I talked about with @raz0red is using the Stella function that activates the phosphor effect only in certain games (Venture being one of them, a game which is the one that has given me the most problems) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DhaemonX Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 4 hours ago, JetmanUK said: DhaemonX: I see some black lines. Ben Kenobi: You don’t need to see the black lines. Stormtrooper: We don’t need to see the black lines. Ben Kenobi: These aren’t the lines you’re looking for. Stormtrooper: These aren’t the lines we’re looking for. Ben Kenobi: He can go about his business, play some Atari. Stormtrooper: You can go about your business, play some Atari. Ben Kenobi: Move along, go play River Raid. Stormtrooper: Move along. Move along, go play River Raid. DhaemonX: But what about those black lines!? Oh, River Raid doesn't have them. (All good natured fun, fellow Atarians) Wow I totally forgot about the issue with that game. I haven't touched an Atari system since like 87 lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 2 minutes ago, 2LTIME6100 said: The flickering in various games when several sprites are at the same height is normal and also constant. The disappearing sprites and the strong flickering in Frogger do not always happen and usually only after you have been playing for a while. that's exactly what happens to me, the sprites start disappearing after playing for a long time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 2 hours ago, 2LTIME6100 said: I have now updated to FW r6 and Dumper x.03. The issues IMG_0849.mov 9.68 MB · 5 downloads with Frogger and Joust PAL remain unchanged, flickering and disappearing sprites, tested on various TVs in game mode. I was able to record a short video of Joust. My Frogger PAL is fine too. I once had the disappearing frog on the street and on the long trunk but it is fine now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Fred_M Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 26 minutes ago, 2LTIME6100 said: I have a 2 year old Phillips TV Can you give me the model number? I would like to take a look at the manual of your TV to see what enhancements your TV has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrChickenz Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 Holy Crap! I didn’t realize my cartridge could be that dirty. I always clean my carts with isopropyl alcohol. But this time i used a tad of Brasso then isopropyl alcohol! So I barely see a flicker with Joust it’s definitely not a constant flicker. And again I really have to look for it. Of course since Brad form the 80s brought it to my attention now I can’t unsee it. 😆 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) It seems that the game being played for a long period of time has been mentioned, how long are we talking here? We could all see if the disappearing sprites happen when we play for the approximate time. Like I've said previously I definitely see flicker, but I've not noticed any disappearing yet. Edited July 16 by JetmanUK 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrChickenz Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 I’m trying a marathon tonight! What game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 1 minute ago, MrChickenz said: I’m trying a marathon tonight! What game? It seems to be Joust and Frogger. Not sure if it applies to NTSC, perhaps just a PAL issue for some users. I have PAL Joust so I'll try to play a bit longer than I usually would, it's not a game I love tbh. 🤣 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrChickenz Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 4 minutes ago, JetmanUK said: It seems to be Joust and Frogger. Not sure if it applies to NTSC, perhaps just a PAL issue for some users. I have PAL Joust so I'll try to play a bit longer than I usually would, it's not a game I love tbh. 🤣 Ok, I just tried another round of Joust. I was getting into this game so this time I never saw a flicker and mine is NTSC. I haven’t played this in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Fred_M Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 (edited) 57 minutes ago, MrChickenz said: Holy Crap! I didn’t realize my cartridge could be that dirty. I always clean my carts with isopropyl alcohol. But this time i used a tad of Brasso then isopropyl alcohol! So I barely see a flicker with Joust it’s definitely not a constant flicker. And again I really have to look for it. Of course since Brad form the 80s brought it to my attention now I can’t unsee it. 😆 Just to be sure and I don't want to patronize you, but you do know that a dirty cartridge can not cause flickering? The data on a cartridge is digital, it can be read or it can not be read. Edited July 16 by Fred_M 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 15 minutes ago, Fred_M said: Just to be sure and I don't want to patronize you, but you do know that a dirty cartridge can not cause fickering? The data on a cartridge is digital, it can be read or it can not be read. Hang on, that's not right, I would swear that my car always drives better when I've just washed it! 😋 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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