Experimental 2600+ Firmware and Dumper

[raz0red]

3 minutes ago, JetmanUK said:

Thanks Chris. 

As I've said here, personally I've not had the disappearing sprite issue, but have noticed some flicker in PAL Joust, slightly more than it appears on Stella on my laptop. Perfectly tolerable though. 

 

How would we chose to switch between 50hz and 60Hz? Holding something down on boot?

I was thinking if you didn't have a cart in, you could use the reset switch to show the menu.

But, haven't really thought about it too much yet. 🙂

 

Chris.

[JetmanUK]

Just now, raz0red said:

I was thinking if you didn't have a cart in, you could use the reset switch to show the menu.

But, haven't really thought about it too much yet. 🙂

 

Chris.

Sounds good, I like that.  Also, that encourages hot swapping, which I like as it gets you in game quicker. 🤟🏻

[DEANJIMMY]

7 minutes ago, raz0red said:

So, the initial requirement was for it to display at 50hz for PAL content.

 

One of my televisions doesn't even support that mode. So, not sure it could ever just work on all televisions unless there was an option to disable 50hz.

 

50hz in general is not well supported consistently on modern televisions, especially when you consider the various filters and modes that televisions support. 2600 content where sprites come and go per frame further exacerbates the issue. With that said, my particular monitor doesn't exhibit any of the missing sprite issues at 50hz, even when left for days at a time.   

 

I think the best possible approach is to provide options for PAL-based content. Specifically, providing the option to disable 50hz mode, and another distinct option to enable phosphor effects for games that are likely to exhibit issues. This will take some time to implement as we will need a custom configuration screen, but it is likely the best approach to accommodate all variations.

 

Chris. 

 

Hello Chris,

sounds like a good approach to keep the 50Hz but give the possibility to switch it off.

For those people who suffer from the problem it would not be sufficient to switch it off after each start of the game by pressing multiple buttons at the same time, they might want to have it permanent.

Maybe we could get a possibility to change the usage of the 4:3 / 16:9 switch?

Enter a button sequence with no cart inserted to change it to select 50/60Hz for PAL games instead. I find this switch currently useless but of course others like the 16:9 stretch, so it must be selectable.

 

Retropie on a rasperry gives you always 60Hz hdmi output, which is for some (Amiga) PAL games not good. So in general it is a good idea to have PAL games running at 50Hz on the 2600+🤙

 

Many thanks for your reply!

 

[DEANJIMMY]

6 minutes ago, raz0red said:

I was thinking if you didn't have a cart in, you could use the reset switch to show the menu.

But, haven't really thought about it too much yet. 🙂

 

Chris.

Good idea,  I wrote my post before I saw this but in this menu maybe you can change the 4:3 / 16/9 switch behaviour for various things🤔

[Alex_813]

4 hours ago, tradyblix said:

Not how it works for me, just as another anecdotal point of interest. Works as expected here. The shot goes off even if I never release the button from the press. 

Are you using the booster grip?

[AtariYMás009]

Using combinations of buttons or levers sounds a bit complicated at least for me (and in my opinion the average consumer), I see it as more coherent to implement the phosphor effect in all PAL games (since there are games like frogger and many others that have this problem but stella does not apply the phosphor effect to them by default) and see if it is solved that way, especially so as not to have to sacrifice the 50Hz.

[raz0red]

8 minutes ago, AtariYMás009 said:

Using combinations of buttons or levers sounds a bit complicated at least for me (and in my opinion the average consumer), I see it as more coherent to implement the phosphor effect in all PAL games (since there are games like frogger and many others that have this problem but stella does not apply the phosphor effect to them by default) and see if it is solved that way, especially so as not to have to sacrifice the 50Hz.

See above, that doesn't fix the issue. My television doesn't even support 50hz (my monitor does).

 

Also, the phosphor effect is not something everyone will want. When it was enabled, people complained as it causes it to look a bit more blurry and causes ghosting. 

 

I think a simple menu that allows you to enable/disable these features (not per-game, globally) would be a good start. You press one switch, and can disable 50hz. You can also decide to enable the phosphor effect for those games that are known to be temperamental (these would be independent options).

 

Chris.

Edited July 18 by raz0red

[+Fred_M]

10 minutes ago, raz0red said:

I think a simple menu that allows you to enable/disable these features (not per-game, globally) would be a good start. You press one switch, and can disable 50hz.

 

Sounds perfect to me.

[tradyblix]

33 minutes ago, Alex_813 said:

Are you using the booster grip?

No, I'm using a 7800 controller. Not touching a CX30 with a 10 foot pole 

Edited July 18 by tradyblix

[AtariYMás009]

@raz0red

I don't understand why you say that enabling the phosphor effect would not be a possible solution. I have a small emulator machine that runs at 50Hz and has phosphor enabled by default (it uses stella 6.7 as core), and at no point did I have the sprites disappearing problem with that machine, it's just that the emulation there is very bad compared to the 2600+.

It would be better to test a build with phosphor enabled myself (since I'm one of the few who hold this position) and if I get good results you could also post it in this thread as a new revision of the experimental firmware or whatever you prefer.

[raz0red]

8 minutes ago, AtariYMás009 said:

@raz0red

I don't understand why you say that enabling the phosphor effect would not be a possible solution. I have a small emulator machine that runs at 50Hz and has phosphor enabled by default (it uses stella 6.7 as core), and at no point did I have the sprites disappearing problem with that machine, it's just that the emulation there is very bad compared to the 2600+.

It would be better to test a build with phosphor enabled myself (since I'm one of the few who hold this position) and if I get good results you could also post it in this thread as a new revision of the experimental firmware or whatever you prefer.

Where did I say that? Please read my entire post.
 

Chris.

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 hour ago, raz0red said:

See above, that doesn't fix the issue. My television doesn't even support 50hz (my monitor does).

 

Also, the phosphor effect is not something everyone will want. When it was enabled, people complained as it causes it to look a bit more blurry and causes ghosting. 

 

I think a simple menu that allows you to enable/disable these features (not per-game, globally) would be a good start. You press one switch, and can disable 50hz. You can also decide to enable the phosphor effect for those games that are known to be temperamental (these would be independent options).

 

Chris.

IF phosphor and linear filtering were available (but not forced) like this would be ideal.

[AtariYMás009]

1 hour ago, raz0red said:

See above, that doesn't fix the issue. My television doesn't even support 50hz (my monitor does).

What do you mean by this then? I'm probably misunderstanding it, I'm sorry.

[John Stamos Mullet]

1 hour ago, tradyblix said:

No, I'm using a 7800 controller. Not touching a CX30 with a 10 foot pole 

The CX30 is the paddles. 

Edited July 19 by John Stamos Mullet

[raz0red]

11 minutes ago, AtariYMás009 said:

What do you mean by this then? I'm probably misunderstanding it, I'm sorry.

There are multiple issues related to 50hz support, which I listed in that previous post.

 

Some televisions don’t support it at all. Others, may support it but due to their filters, modes, etc. may cause the disappearing sprites issue (to varying degrees).

 

So, what I was proposing is the ability to enable/disable 50hz mode, and to enable/disable phosphor effects. These would be independent options. 

 

This approach should be able to satisfy all of the concerns (people who like it as it is now, people that want phosphor and 50hz, people who don’t want 50hz mode, etc.).

 

Hope that makes sense,

Chris.

 

 

Edited July 19 by raz0red

[AtariYMás009]

19 minutes ago, raz0red said:

There are multiple issues related to 50hz support, which I listed in that previous post.

 

Some televisions don’t support it at all. Others, may support it but due to their filters, modes, etc. may cause the disappearing sprites issue (to varying degrees).

 

So, what I was proposing is the ability to enable/disable 50hz mode, and to enable/disable phosphor effects. These would be independent options. 

 

This approach should be able to satisfy all of the concerns (people who like it as it is now, people that want phosphor and 50hz, people who don’t want 50hz mode, etc.).

 

Hope that makes sense,

Chris.

 

 

Yeah, that make sense after I red it slowly, Sorry again for misunderstunding.

I think that accesing this menú by pressing reset in "no cartridge inserted" screen is a very afordable option

[Alex_813]

1 hour ago, tradyblix said:

No, I'm using a 7800 controller. Not touching a CX30 with a 10 foot pole 

Unfortunately,  I don't have a 7800 controller.

[+Fred_M]

3 hours ago, raz0red said:

50hz in general is not well supported consistently on modern televisions, especially when you consider the various filters and modes that televisions support.

 

In Europe every TV supports 50hz, because even todays European TV broadcasts are 50hz ones (480/720/1080/i/p at 50hz).

[raz0red]

19 minutes ago, Fred_M said:

In Europe every TV supports 50hz, because even todays European TV broadcasts are 50hz ones (480/720/1080/i/p at 50hz).

Understood, but the 2600+ works in all regions.

As I mentioned previously, one of my televisions (a Samsung) shows “unsupported mode” when attempting to display 50hz. Thus, I am unable to play PAL contents (on that television). Having an option to disable that mode would seem useful.

 

This is simply an option. Not sure why there is push back for an additional option that would only be accessible if you knew how to display the menu.

 

Chris.

Edited July 19 by raz0red

[+remowilliams]

8 minutes ago, raz0red said:

This is simply an option. Not sure why there is push back for an additional option that would only be accessible if you knew how to display the menu.

As I understand people who have already complained about such things, it's because simply knowing it's there will absolutely ruin their experience somehow.

[ForceInfinity]

3 hours ago, JetmanUK said:

Sounds good, I like that.  Also, that encourages hot swapping, which I like as it gets you in game quicker. 🤟🏻

 I wondered to myself if anyone had ever thought about designing a game that ran on multiple cartridges where the cartridges can be hot swapped on the real hardware (somehow get a routine running on the 128 bytes of memory to switch carts)  I know some will scoff at the idea, but my imagination runs wild sometimes.  Doubt it'd be practical though

[JetmanUK]

2 hours ago, raz0red said:

Understood, but the 2600+ works in all regions.

As I mentioned previously, one of my televisions (a Samsung) shows “unsupported mode” when attempting to display 50hz. Thus, I am unable to play PAL contents (on that television). Having an option to disable that mode would seem useful.

 

This is simply an option. Not sure why there is push back for an additional option that would only be accessible if you knew how to display the menu.

 

Chris.

I think this is a great idea Chris. 50hz on/off and other visual options as the firmware continues to evolve. Perhaps even a stereo sound on/off option too. 

[DEANJIMMY]

7 hours ago, AtariYMás009 said:

Using combinations of buttons or levers sounds a bit complicated at least for me (and in my opinion the average consumer), I see it as more coherent to implement the phosphor effect in all PAL games (since there are games like frogger and many others that have this problem but stella does not apply the phosphor effect to them by default) and see if it is solved that way, especially so as not to have to sacrifice the 50Hz.

The menu would be the best solution for these kind of problems.

 

Just one thought:

Did you try to select another input on your TV and then back to the hdmi with the 2600+ when the problem happens?

The Atari logo and the whole boot/loading process runs with 60 Hz and after the game starts, my TV swaps to 50Hz.

On my TV maybe this signal swap fails once in two years, so I didn't notice and care.

Not sure if it helps to change input forth and back in your case but on TVs running out of synch after an hour, it might help.

Just an idea but the menu will be the only good solution if TV Problems exist.

My 3 TVs seem to run fine. 

[JetmanUK]

17 minutes ago, DEANJIMMY said:

The menu would be the best solution for these kind of problems.

 

Just one thought:

Did you try to select another input on your TV and then back to the hdmi with the 2600+ when the problem happens?

The Atari logo and the whole boot/loading process runs with 60 Hz and after the game starts, my TV swaps to 50Hz.

On my TV maybe this signal swap fails once in two years, so I didn't notice and care.

Not sure if it helps to change input forth and back in your case but on TVs running out of synch after an hour, it might help.

Just an idea but the menu will be the only good solution if TV Problems exist.

My 3 TVs seem to run fine. 

Great idea! Anyone with issues should definitely try this. 

[AtariYMás009]

2 hours ago, DEANJIMMY said:

The menu would be the best solution for these kind of problems.

 

Just one thought:

Did you try to select another input on your TV and then back to the hdmi with the 2600+ when the problem happens?

The Atari logo and the whole boot/loading process runs with 60 Hz and after the game starts, my TV swaps to 50Hz.

On my TV maybe this signal swap fails once in two years, so I didn't notice and care.

Not sure if it helps to change input forth and back in your case but on TVs running out of synch after an hour, it might help.

Just an idea but the menu will be the only good solution if TV Problems exist.

My 3 TVs seem to run fine. 

As curious as it may seem, I did try to do that and also turn on the television once the game has loaded so that the television turns on directly at 50Hz but the problem is still there, I guess the menu idea will be the best for these problems that After all, they only affect certain players.