+Fred_M Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Today I connected my 2600+ on a PC monitor (yes, I found one that supported 720p 50hz too 🙂) and Asteroids is running fine now. I have not tested Frogger yet, I did not want to wait for an hour 😉 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 23 hours ago, raz0red said: As discussed previously, I think the only solution that will satisfy all is to provide the option to disable 50hz, and the ability to enable/disable phosphor (independently). Will it be possible to enable/disable 50Hz for both 2600/7800 or separate? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariYMás009 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, DEANJIMMY said: Will it be possible to enable/disable 50Hz for both 2600/7800 or separate? The way you put it doesn't make much sense. Let's say as an example that you select 50Hz in this hypothetical menu, and then insert the cartridge, the normal thing would be for it to run at 50Hz regardless of the console to which the cartridge belongs. The option that would be exclusive to 2600 would be the phosphor one, since it is a unique feature of the stella emulator (if I'm not mistaken). And one thing I wanted to emphasize: If you don't access to the menu and don't change anything, the game should run at its native refresh rate, right? Edited July 21 by AtariYMás009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEANJIMMY Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 6 hours ago, AtariYMás009 said: The way you put it doesn't make much sense. Let's say as an example that you select 50Hz in this hypothetical menu, and then insert the cartridge, the normal thing would be for it to run at 50Hz regardless of the console to which the cartridge belongs. The option that would be exclusive to 2600 would be the phosphor one, since it is a unique feature of the stella emulator (if I'm not mistaken). And one thing I wanted to emphasize: If you don't access to the menu and don't change anything, the game should run at its native refresh rate, right? Well, it was just a question, I am not sure about the answer. I guess the missing objects can be seen only on certain TVs but also only for 2600 games. Maybe some still want to run 7800 games at native refresh rate if they never had a problem? I am not sure if 60Hz will have some benefit to 7800 PAL games, like the flicker in scrolling? I am not sure, therefore I asked that question and flexibility might be good but I rather wonder how complicate it will be to implement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dionoid Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) On 7/19/2024 at 2:20 AM, raz0red said: There are multiple issues related to 50hz support, which I listed in that previous post. Some televisions don’t support it at all. Others, may support it but due to their filters, modes, etc. may cause the disappearing sprites issue (to varying degrees). So, what I was proposing is the ability to enable/disable 50hz mode, and to enable/disable phosphor effects. These would be independent options. This approach should be able to satisfy all of the concerns (people who like it as it is now, people that want phosphor and 50hz, people who don’t want 50hz mode, etc.). Hope that makes sense, Chris. Hi Chris, AFAIK all HDMI-capable TVs and monitors support the EDID display information system, which also returns the refresh rates which a TV supports. So if you're inserting a PAL 50Hz cartridge into the 2600+ and use a TV that doesn't support 50Hz, the software driver could decide to switch to 60Hz instead. I think the RetroArch display driver supports this. I personally really like the automatic 50Hz support of the 2600+, which makes objects move smoothly across the screen for my PAL games. But I understand some people would be helped with forcing the TV to display on 60Hz, as a workaround to prevent flickering objects being hidden by a "smart" TV filter. Below you see the display of a PAL object flickering at 25Hz (the blue blocks) while displaying on a 60Hz TV (the red blocks). Because on a 60Hz display, each 200 milliseconds the flickering object is displayed for two consecutive frames, my guess is that the smart TV filter doesn't try to clean it. But it's not very good for a smooth display of moving objects. Edited July 22 by Dionoid 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 The real root of the problem here is that PAL display modes exist at all. There never really was any need for disparate display rates by country/continent, and the fact that the majority of films and TV shows made on film in Pal territories was upconverted to 25fps by speeding it up, making them inaccurate, and causing the voices to pitch higher due to being sped up is a travesty to the source material. /soapbox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 (edited) 19 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said: The real root of the problem here is that PAL display modes exist at all. There never really was any need for disparate display rates by country/continent, and the fact that the majority of films and TV shows made on film in Pal territories was upconverted to 25fps by speeding it up, making them inaccurate, and causing the voices to pitch higher due to being sped up is a travesty to the source material. /soapbox 24Hz movies got speeded up, 60Hz movies had to be slowed down. The reason for 50Hz is the different frequency of the power. When color TVs got developed, the systems had to be based on these frequencies. Edited July 22 by Thomas Jentzsch 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz0red Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 6 hours ago, Dionoid said: Hi Chris, AFAIK all HDMI-capable TVs and monitors support the EDID display information system, which also returns the refresh rates which a TV supports. So if you're inserting a PAL 50Hz cartridge into the 2600+ and use a TV that doesn't support 50Hz, the software driver could decide to switch to 60Hz instead. I think the RetroArch display driver supports this. I personally really like the automatic 50Hz support of the 2600+, which makes objects move smoothly across the screen for my PAL games. But I understand some people would be helped with forcing the TV to display on 60Hz, as a workaround to prevent flickering objects being hidden by a "smart" TV filter. Below you see the display of a PAL object flickering at 25Hz (the blue blocks) while displaying on a 60Hz TV (the red blocks). Because on a 60Hz display, each 200 milliseconds the flickering object is displayed for two consecutive frames, my guess is that the smart TV filter doesn't try to clean it. But it's not very good for a smooth display of moving objects. Ok, thanks! That is great information and I will check it out. 50hz mode won't be going away, it will be the default. A simple menu will just provide the ability to disable it (even if the mode is supported). Thanks, Chris. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) @raz0red Summary - Two PAL60 carts which require their palette changing. My recent five game purchase from Atari Age and their palettes: Space Rocks - PAL60 Cart - Compatible. Confirmed incorect PAL colours by running it on my PAL light sixer and comparing. 2600 Plus 2600 Deepstone Catacomb - PAL60 Cart - Compatible. Confirmed incorect PAL colours by running it on my PAL light sixer and comparing. 2600 Plus 2600 Dungeon Stalker - PAL/PAL60/NTSC Cart??? - Compatible. I do not have a 7800 to compare it against. The AA store page states 'Dungeon Stalker supports both NTSC and PAL television standards'. Does it just detect which region 7800 it's running on and switch to that mode? If that is the case I guess it just runs in NTSC mode on the 2600 Plus? Seems to be the best option anyway. Boulder Dash - Switchable region cart - Currently not compatible, cannot test. As this game is switchable between PAL/PAL60/NTSC via the difficulty switches whilst in the main menu, I guess we would just have the 2600 Plus use NTSC mode, it wouldn't be able to switch palettes after the game has loaded would it? And why would we select anything but NTSC mode? I have it here ready to test when it works. Lode Runner PAL60 Cart - Currently not compatible, cannot test. I have this PAL60 copy ready to test when it works. Edited July 23 by JetmanUK 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 Autodetection of a PAL-60 cart is close too impossible. You somehow have to tell the emulator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Autodetection of a PAL-60 cart is close too impossible. You somehow have to tell the emulator. Thats what @raz0red is doing isn't he? Taking the debug info and adding it to the firmware that it must display this cart as PAL60? I am sure he's done that with other carts where the incorrect colours have been displayed in PAL60 versions. This: Edited July 23 by JetmanUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 4 hours ago, JetmanUK said: Dungeon Stalker - PAL/PAL60/NTSC Cart??? - Compatible. I do not have a 7800 to compare it against. The AA store page states 'Dungeon Stalker supports both NTSC and PAL television standards'. Does it just detect which region 7800 it's running on and switch to that mode? If that is the case I guess it just runs in NTSC mode on the 2600 Plus? Seems to be the best option anyway. It's running in ntsc. For a game that runs in both pal and ntsc, you'll want ntsc for the smoother frame rate. (in theory a 7800 game could use the extra scanlines when running under pal. I'm not aware of any games that do this in practice) 2 hours ago, JetmanUK said: Thats what @raz0red is doing isn't he? "autodetection" means there isn't code to handle a specific game, but rather some heuristic is used to figure out the correct category. Thomas is correct that there isn't a reliable heuristic to determine if a 2600 game is pal60 or ntsc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 18 minutes ago, RevEng said: It's running in ntsc. For a game that runs in both pal and ntsc, you'll want ntsc for the smoother frame rate. (in theory a 7800 game could use the extra scanlines when running under pal. I'm not aware of any games that do this in practice) "autodetection" means there isn't code to handle a specific game, but rather some heuristic is used to figure out the correct category. Thomas is correct that there isn't a reliable heuristic to determine if a 2600 game is pal60 or ntsc. Good, NTSC should be used. I just wasnt sure what this cart was doing. I get that Stella can't 'autodetect', I am saying that PAL60 cart detection has been added for numerous games so far*, so that when a PAL60 cart is inserted the 2600 Plus it applies the correct palette to the cart type. PAL60 games are otherwise treated as NTSC and are given the incorect palette. *See the first post in this thread, lots of PAL60 games have received a palette update, that is what I was trying to help with on Space Rocks and Deepstone Catacomb. I know you know this btw, you are one of the tech wizards! Edited July 23 by JetmanUK 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz0red Posted July 23 Author Share Posted July 23 16 minutes ago, JetmanUK said: Good, NTSC should be used. I just wasnt sure what this cart was doing. I get that Stella can't 'autodetect', I am saying that PAL60 cart detection has been added for numerous games so far*, so that when a PAL60 cart is inserted the 2600 Plus it applies the correct palette to the cart type. PAL60 games are otherwise treated as NTSC and are given the incorect palette. *See the first post in this thread, lots of PAL60 games have received a palette update, that is what I was trying to help with on Space Rocks and Deepstone Catacomb. I know you know this btw, you are one of the tech wizards! Yeah, I already added the hashes you provided for the next update (force PAL60). Thanks, Chris. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 The problem is, if the dumper doesn't get updated continously, there will be no way to play future PAL 60 carts with correct colors. Therefore, IMO it would be a good idea, to have the required information in a (text) file which can be easily maintained without having to build the dumper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 13 minutes ago, raz0red said: Yeah, I already added the hashes you provided for the next update (force PAL60). Thanks, Chris. Thank you Chris. Happy that I could help. 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetmanUK Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 7 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: The problem is, if the dumper doesn't get updated continously, there will be no way to play future PAL 60 carts with correct colors. Therefore, IMO it would be a good idea, to have the required information in a (text) file which can be easily maintained without having to build the dumper. That sounds like a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz0red Posted July 23 Author Share Posted July 23 Agreed. I created a tool a while ago that allows for injecting files and settings into the firmware. Once I have some time I can work on making it publicly available and facilitate these types of updates. Chris. 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 How many PAL 60 carts are there? can't be more than a handful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said: How many PAL 60 carts are there? can't be more than a handful. Are you trying to be funny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Are you trying to be funny? No, I'm asking, because I was under the impression that PAL-60 was something relatively recently developed for watching NTSC formatted DVDs on PAL TVs, invented well after the 2600 was no longer in production, so presumably the only Atari 2600 games using it are Homebrews, which is a relatively small number compared to original release games. Edited July 23 by John Stamos Mullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 minute ago, John Stamos Mullet said: No, I'm asking, because I was under the impression that PAL-60 was something relatively recently developed for watching NTSC formatted DVDs on PAL TVs, invented well after the 2600 was no longer in production, so presumably the only Atari 2600 games using it are Homebrews, which is a relatively small number compared to original release games. You are aware that there are 100s of 2600 homebrews, right? And from the current top 10 in the AA store, 6 are offered as PAL-60. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: You are aware that there are 100s of 2600 homebrews, right? And from the current top 10 in the AA store, 6 are offered as PAL-60. So, I was partially correct, it's really just homebrews - but a few more than a handful. Edited July 23 by John Stamos Mullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 7 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said: So, I was partially correct, it's really just homebrews - but a few more than a handful. The post of you which I was initially replying to was not partially correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stamos Mullet Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 5 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: The post of you which I was initially replying to was not partially correct. The one where I asked a legitimate question - "how many are there?" to which you replied like you were ready to punch me, instead of just saying "No, it's like a couple hundred." I asked the question because I didn't know the answer. You immediately jumped on the offensive ready to internet fight. Chill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.