Experimental 2600+ Firmware and Dumper

[John Stamos Mullet]

18 minutes ago, Fred_M said:

This discussion is not in anyway about implementing extra filters in the 2600+ firmware. It is just 2 people bickering. Forget it 😂

 

What I am reading is this. Thomas states that people asked for extra filters in Stella and John is stating that none of the 2600+ users are asking for extra filters. So both people are talking about 2 different topics and do not want to give in.

This topic is about the 2600+. This is the 2600+ subforum. This is not the Stella forum.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

4 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

You claimed “enough people” were asking for options to add Jailbars and Rf interference, in this thread. 
 

I asked you “who wants this on the 2600+.”?

Nice try of backing out.

 

You said "nobody" wants these filters.

Quote

...but rather are nuisance factors of RF television reception at the time - nobody wants those in their signal, it's signal noise.

There was none of the two limitations in your statement which you are making up just now. I answered your statement as posted. And I never said "in this thread" or "for the 2600+" nor was I implying that. Yet you are calling me a liar. Reported.

 

BTW: I am sure there are some 2600+ users who would like to have these (and other) options.

[+Fred_M]

I think you guys should start your own discussion topic 😉

[John Stamos Mullet]

[John Stamos Mullet]

Just now, Fred_M said:

I think you guys should start your own discussion topic 😉

I think Thomas should take his discussion of all things not related to the 2600+ to another forum.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

22 minutes ago, Fred_M said:

This discussion is not in anyway about implementing extra filters in the 2600+ firmware. It is just 2 people bickering. Forget it 😂

 

What I am reading is this. Thomas states that people asked for extra filters in Stella and John is stating that none of the 2600+ users are asking for extra filters. So both people are talking about 2 different topics and both are right but don't see that.

He never stated that but called me a liar instead.  And now he is adding two limitations to get away with that. Without a single sign of regret. 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

3 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I think Thomas should take his discussion of all things not related to the 2600+ to another forum.

You are trying to police people again. 

 

And you are trying to make me look guilty because I posted in the "wrong" forum. How cheap can you be? 

 

-> Ignored

Edited October 6 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 minutes ago, Fred_M said:

I think you guys should start your own discussion topic 😉

Not necessary, I am done. Sorry for interrupting, but I after he called me a liar I had to react. I hope you can understand.

[Electric-Dreams]

1 hour ago, Ben from Plaion said:

Thanks as always Chris, always the voice of reason. 

 

I would leave 1.7 as is and release it if you are ready.

 

I'm not a fan, as people know of any display filters, but in the case of bilinear and phosphor I believe that this may enhance IQ for some people's TVs on particular games due to the flickery nature of 2600 games. And as its a hidden menu it's not intrusive to someone like me that just wants to play games in a raw unadulterated fashion.

 

All the other modes could be considered to be added at a later date but for me we have more interesting/pressing things to look into like cdfj and controllers compatibility for 2600+. 

 

Thanks Ben

 

 

Hi Ben !

Indeed, I fully understand the desire not to overwhelm the average user with a flood of options they neither need nor understand.

However, having a streamlined menu for basic users shouldn't prevent advanced users from accessing all the features.

This kind of issue is nothing new; it arises with all PC games. The solution is always the same: on the options screen, display the 2 or 3 main settings (in this case 50Hz, filtering, and phosphor), and group all the other settings (or some of them) in a 'advanced *dangerous* settings' submenu.

All these advanced settings and options exist; they were coded into Stella by developers who took the time and effort to implement them, and it would be unfortunate to hide them permanently.

 

Finally, this is just my humble opinion, and I am aware that I am part of a small (and rather quiet) minority.

 

In any case, thank you for all the work you've already done here at Plaion.

[Ben from Plaion]

6 minutes ago, Electric-Dreams said:

Hi Ben !

Indeed, I fully understand the desire not to overwhelm the average user with a flood of options they neither need nor understand.

However, having a streamlined menu for basic users shouldn't prevent advanced users from accessing all the features.

This kind of issue is nothing new; it arises with all PC games. The solution is always the same: on the options screen, display the 2 or 3 main settings (in this case 50Hz, filtering, and phosphor), and group all the other settings (or some of them) in a 'advanced *dangerous* settings' submenu.

All these advanced settings and options exist; they were coded into Stella by developers who took the time and effort to implement them, and it would be unfortunate to hide them permanently.

 

Finally, this is just my humble opinion, and I am aware that I am part of a small (and rather quiet) minority.

 

In any case, thank you for all the work you've already done here at Plaion.

Yeah I don't worry about little skirmishes like this, in the UK we have a saying "it just tomorrows fish and chips papers" as in it's just drama quickly forgotten about.

 

Key thing is to stay on course and keep providing positive progressive discourse generally about the + line.

 

Take a step back and look at the Atari Age 2600+ forum, engaged users providing feedback that has had a huge impact on the + project....we just sailed past 1 million views on this very forum. That says a lot.

[John Stamos Mullet]

58 minutes ago, Electric-Dreams said:

Hi Ben !

Indeed, I fully understand the desire not to overwhelm the average user with a flood of options they neither need nor understand.

However, having a streamlined menu for basic users shouldn't prevent advanced users from accessing all the features.

This kind of issue is nothing new; it arises with all PC games. The solution is always the same: on the options screen, display the 2 or 3 main settings (in this case 50Hz, filtering, and phosphor), and group all the other settings (or some of them) in a 'advanced *dangerous* settings' submenu.

All these advanced settings and options exist; they were coded into Stella by developers who took the time and effort to implement them, and it would be unfortunate to hide them permanently.

 

Finally, this is just my humble opinion, and I am aware that I am part of a small (and rather quiet) minority.

 

In any case, thank you for all the work you've already done here at Plaion.

While I have not had the possibility to test those other more advanced options on a real 2600+, I do know that the more features and options you enable, the more CPU horsepower you will need. 

 

There’s a very good chance that some of those more advanced options would degrade the performance and potentially cause unwanted lag, stuttering, and slowdowns to occur. Those advanced features run great on a Windows PC with gaming specs, but not necessarily on the Rockchip ARM board in this console. So limiting the options to only those that keep the console running well is key. 

[Electric-Dreams]

2 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

While I have not had the possibility to test those other more advanced options on a real 2600+, I do know that the more features and options you enable, the more CPU horsepower you will need. 

 

There’s a very good chance that some of those more advanced options would degrade the performance and potentially cause unwanted lag, stuttering, and slowdowns to occur. Those advanced features run great on a Windows PC with gaming specs, but not necessarily on the Rockchip ARM board in this console. So limiting the options to only those that keep the console running well is key. 

Don't make me say what I didn't say either. I'm not talking about a PC in the sense of 'AMD Threadripper with 64 cores and a GeForce 4090.' Instead, imagine a PC from 1997 running Quake 1, much less powerful than today's ARM SoCs, but whose games already had this kind of menu for graphics options. Actually, I was mainly trying to highlight the idea of being able to separate graphics options for the average user from those for advanced users. Now, if you want to ask whether a particular option will consume too much CPU, the only way to know is to try. Have we tried?

Edited October 7 by Electric-Dreams

[Dionoid]

5 hours ago, Fred_M said:

What I am reading is this. Thomas states that people asked for extra filters in Stella and John is stating that none of the 2600+ users are asking for extra filters. So both people are talking about 2 different topics and do not want to give in both are right but don't see that.

This is about John's tendency to rile up people with unfounded claims and policing these threads, while Thomas refuses to tolerate that.

[Dionoid]

6 hours ago, Ben from Plaion said:

All the other modes could be considered to be added at a later date but for me we have more interesting/pressing things to look into like cdfj and controllers compatibility for 2600+.

Happy to hear that the focus is on CDFJ and additional controller compatibility for the 2600+

 

I also wonder about Boulder Dash 2600 compatibility, as support for its type of bankswitching seems doable. But maybe I don’t have all the technical info here. @raz0red Maybe you know more about this?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

4 hours ago, Electric-Dreams said:

Now, if you want to ask whether a particular option will consume too much CPU, the only way to know is to try. Have we tried?

The effects work well on R77 which has a very similar CPU.

 

And e.g. the ARM emulation for CDFJ is much more CPU demanding. But it still (just) works on R77.

Edited October 7 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Thomas Jentzsch]

3 hours ago, Dionoid said:

Happy to hear that the focus is on CDFJ and additional controller compatibility for the 2600+

 

I also wonder about Boulder Dash 2600 compatibility, as support for its type of bankswitching seems doable. But maybe I don’t have all the technical info here. @raz0red Maybe you know more about this?

IMO adding Boulder Dash should be no problem. There is nothing special about the bankswitching type, except that Boulder Dash is the only game using it

[SJD69]

1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

The effects work well on R77 which has a very similar CPU.

 

And e.g. the ARM emulation for CDFJ is much more CPU demanding. But it still (just) works on R77.

Hear, hear! Would love scanlines / shadow mask.

[Jstick]

12 hours ago, raz0red said:

The equivalent filters also exist on NES and SNES emulators. However, the SNES and NES mini devices did not expose them.

Actually, they did

 

[Jstick]

double post

 

Edited October 7 by Jstick

[+Nathan Strum]

20 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

-> Ignored

Just as an aside, in case Al is following this, it would be nice if when you put someone on "ignore" it would also hide any quoted comments attributed to them in other peoples' posts. Ignoring doesn't really work, when people keep quoting those who are ignored.  

 

To the topic at hand - I rarely use TV filters/effects when I'm running emulators. But that's because I primarily use them for developing in-game graphics, and pixel accuracy is more important to me than mimicking the appearance of real hardware. When I do need to see an accurate representation of what a game will look like on real hardware, I test it on real hardware and a CRT. However, I appreciate having the options there to use if I choose to. For certain games, it helps with video capture for YouTube.

[Albert]

10 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said:

Just as an aside, in case Al is following this, it would be nice if when you put someone on "ignore" it would also hide any quoted comments attributed to them in other peoples' posts. Ignoring doesn't really work, when people keep quoting those who are ignored.  

I am following, and I agree that would be Really Nice for the forum software to do this.  Invision is working on a major update (and oh boy, the index is quite a bit different), and if they haven't implemented such a feature (I'll take a look), I will suggest it.  I really wish the ignore feature worked more like blocking someone on Facebook.

 

https://preview.invisionalpha5.com/

 

 ..Al

[+sramirez2008]

21 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

BTW: I am sure there are some 2600+ users who would like to have these (and other) options.

I would.

[+Nathan Strum]

13 minutes ago, Albert said:

I am following, and I agree that would be Really Nice for the forum software to do this.  Invision is working on a major update (and oh boy, the index is quite a bit different), and if they haven't implemented such a feature (I'll take a look), I will suggest it.  I really wish the ignore feature worked more like blocking someone on Facebook.

Much appreciated. Hopefully they'll also add a usable Search feature to Messages.

[Albert]

3 minutes ago, Nathan Strum said:

Much appreciated. Hopefully they'll also add a usable Search feature to Messages.

I know, that is a complete disaster, and I have quite a few messages. I'm definitely going to implore them to fix this.

 

 ..Al

[MikeM_]

While I would love to see as many features as possible added for those who want them,

 

the main concern I have is with spending the limited dev time available on features when there are still performance and compatibility issues that need resolving. 
 

Once all the compatibility and performance issues have been addressed, I have no qualms with adding whatever quality of life features the community is interested in, but until those primary issues are resolved, I think that distracting away from the main objectives will just muddy the water and turn us against each other (as we are already seeing). 
 

Does the community want scanlines or improved paddle performance? Jailbars, or keypad compatibility? More complete game compatibility, or more screen customizations?
 

I’m not saying it has to be either / or. But it can’t happen all at once. 
 

Let the team hit the main goals. Then we can return to feature requests. That’s all I’m saying.