800XL startup RAM test fail options

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

@TZJB @Beeblebrox wonder if either of you could help w/a question about adapting sega joysticks to atari, or should I just open a specific thread? (I've read the many I could find about it, but can't get the 8bitdo retro BT dongle + (x 2) 8bitdo nor an Switch Pro controller(s) to work; they pair, but no stick nor button presses register. I'll post some picks of my adapter (for the dongle) and explain more if this is something you're interested in troubleshooting w/me. Thanks

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

@TZJB @Beeblebrox wonder if either of you could help w/a question about adapting sega joysticks to atari, or should I just open a specific thread? (I've read the many I could find about it, but can't get the 8bitdo retro BT dongle + (x 2) 8bitdo nor an Switch Pro controller(s) to work; they pair, but no stick nor button presses register. I'll post some picks of my adapter (for the dongle) and explain more if this is something you're interested in troubleshooting w/me. Thanks

Don't know much about Sega and adapters but you have to be mindful of the voltage pin(s) as different on the Atari, so things can get fried. 

 

There are existing threads on the subject if I recall. 

 

Personally I'd recommend the established SNACK adapter, which allows snes controllers to be used. See the link in my signature. 

Edited April 24 by Beeblebrox

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

14 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Don't know much about Sega and adapters but you have to be mindful of the voltage pin(s) as different on the Atari, so things can get fried. 

 

There are existing threads on the subject if I recall. 

 

Personally I'd recommend the established SNACK adapter, which allows snes controllers to be used. See the link in my signature. 

I was careful to connect pin7 (atari) to pin5 (8bitdo), and it did power and pair, but no action beyond that.

Does SNACK only work with SNES, and corded only? That might be interesting, but i already have these controllers (and a BlueRetro Core+cable on the way) and so I need to get this straightened out.

 

I've read many/most(all?) related threads here, but they include some contradictory info that I need some clarity on. Thanks

[Beeblebrox]

8 minutes ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

I was careful to connect pin7 (atari) to pin5 (8bitdo), and it did power and pair, but no action beyond that.

Does SNACK only work with SNES, and corded only? That might be interesting, but i already have these controllers (and a BlueRetro Core+cable on the way) and so I need to get this straightened out.

 

I've read many/most(all?) related threads here, but they include some contradictory info that I need some clarity on. Thanks

Sure. 

So SNACK is SNES only, corded. SNACK aso supports games that have been coded for it, with multi button functionality. Check out this proof of concept 128k ray casting engine, which supports most of the buttons on a snes controller. So you can cycling through weapons, call up maps, straf, run, fire, etc etc. 

 

Edited April 24 by Beeblebrox

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

9 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Sure. 

So SNACK is SNES only, corded. SNACK aso supports games that have been coded for it, with multi button functionality. Check out this proof of concept 128k ray casting engine, which supports most of the buttons on a snes controller. So you can cycling through weapons, call up maps, straf, run, fire, etc etc. 

 

That does look fantastic. Some of the community demo roms i've gotten are just incredible and is quite motivating.

Thanks, i'll put up a new thread and get it straightened.

[Beeblebrox]

22 minutes ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

That does look fantastic. Some of the community demo roms i've gotten are just incredible and is quite motivating.

Thanks, i'll put up a new thread and get it straightened.

Indeed. That particular demo is from Globe a few years back. Would be great to see it as that basis of a game, which may well be the case...who knows. (Globe also bought us the excellent fully fledged FPS game Final Assault) 

BTW here is the aforementioned 128k ray casting engine in motion, where this video doesn't show the run mode, which is fast and just shows you what the A8 is capable of in terms of 3d.

 

 

 

 

 

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

15 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Indeed. That particular demo is from Globe a few years back. Would be great to see it as that basis of a game, which may well be the case...who knows. (Globe also bought us the excellent fully fledged FPS game Final Assault) 

BTW here is the aforementioned 128k ray casting engine in motion, where this video doesn't show the run mode, which is fast and just shows you what the A8 is capable of in terms of 3d.

 

 

 

 

 

That's wild, just if I had a joystick to play it with...

[Beeblebrox]

5 minutes ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

That's wild, just if I had a joystick to play it with...

Iirc it runs on a standard joystick as well on 128k machines, but you'd have only fire and movement with your standard joystick. 

 

I also assume you know about the two Doom engines on A8? 

Edited April 24 by Beeblebrox

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

10 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Iirc it runs on a standard joystick as well on 128k machines, but you'd have only fire and movement with your standard joystick. 

 

I also assume you know about the two Doom engines on A8? 

Sure, but I've no controllers at all that work on it atm bc of the dongle issue. 

 

I didn't - I'll check them out. I've not gotten to dive into the software/game side yet, sorting out the controllers and the s-video. 

[Beeblebrox]

8 minutes ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

Sure, but I've no controllers at all that work on it atm bc of the dongle issue. 

 

I didn't - I'll check them out. I've not gotten to dive into the software/game side yet, sorting out the controllers and the s-video. 

So do you not have a standard joystick (DB9, Atari compatible)? Loads available on ebay of all shapes and sizes. 

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

37 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

So do you not have a standard joystick (DB9, Atari compatible)? Loads available on ebay of all shapes and sizes. 

I don't, I was gifted this machine, the first one since circa 1985. I had a Hyperkin Ranger that arrived w/something broken off inside and felt so cheap I returned it and got the 8bitdo dongle. Planned on getting one off ebay (Slik Stik maybe) or one at a store near me (Quickshot Pro, meh) but held off bc I had this dongle arriving. 

[chevymad]

Another bluetooth dongle that works is the Unijoysticle. I've been using it with an xbox one controller and even with the Atari VCS controllers. Neat thing is you can use one xbox controller as 2 joysticks.. so that playing Robotron is easy. There's a list of what wireless controllers will work with it. https://github.com/ricardoquesada/unijoysticle2/blob/main/docs/user_guide.md

 

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

8 minutes ago, chevymad said:

Another bluetooth dongle that works is the Unijoysticle. I've been using it with an xbox one controller and even with the Atari VCS controllers. Neat thing is you can use one xbox controller as 2 joysticks.. so that playing Robotron is easy. There's a list of what wireless controllers will work with it. https://github.com/ricardoquesada/unijoysticle2/blob/main/docs/user_guide.md

 

Excellent, i'll keep this in mind. 

[+scorpio_ny]

10 minutes ago, chevymad said:

Another bluetooth dongle that works is the Unijoysticle. I've been using it with an xbox one controller and even with the Atari VCS controllers. Neat thing is you can use one xbox controller as 2 joysticks.. so that playing Robotron is easy. There's a list of what wireless controllers will work with it. https://github.com/ricardoquesada/unijoysticle2/blob/main/docs/user_guide.md

 

I have the Unijoysticle too. I use it with my PS4 controllers. Really fun with Robotron and Space Dungeon!

Edited April 25 by scorpio_ny

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

On 4/11/2024 at 10:47 AM, TZJB said:

 

Lead bending to fit components is quite a common practice and will not affect anything electrically. The 5.6V zener diode is not essential, just a safety component and should be at least 1 Watt.

 

One other thing you can do while the soldering iron is hot is to remove the SIO capacitors C77 & C78 to improve high speed SIO.

 

They are the 5th & 6th capacitor down from the top of the right hand vertical row of horizontal capacitors near J5 the joystick port.

 

@TZJB @Beeblebrox did the chroma mod and the C78 + C77 cap lift yesterday. S-video looks great (and composite + luma looked nearly or as-good while waiting on a replacement for a faulty 5din to 4x RCA cable). I've not had occasion to check out the speed benefits of the cap lifts (will these be realized via emulation using an AVG/SubCart? What would be an interesting rom/software example to test?). 

Included are some images w/filenames indicated RF, monitor port: composite + luma, monitor port: S-video.

 

Without exploring the threads first, what would be the cause of these lines (see red SubCart menu images)

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

Jail bars,

Shielding issue of cables, they need to be shielded on each lead and then shielded as a group, then motherboard shielding.

Power to video circuit issue. When restricted can amplify another issue.

The other issue involve oscillator vs crystal and Freddie decoupling cap routing issues ( I add the cap when missing and complete part of the crystal circuit to clean it up)

Some power supplies introduce video issues as well.

Lastly make sure all of the system is plugged into same outlet or strip/power controller.

Edited April 27 by _The Doctor__

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

29 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

Jail bars,

Shielding issue of cables, they need to be shielded on each lead and then shielded as a group, then motherboard shielding.

Power to video circuit issue. When restricted can amplify another issue.

The other issue involve oscillator vs crystal and Freddie decoupling cap routing issues ( I add the cap when missing and complete part of the crystal circuit to clean it up)

Some power supplies introduce video issues as well.

Lastly make sure all of the system is plugged into same outlet or strip/power controller.

Shielding for sure - none of the cables I've found are gonna have individual shielding (and maybe not outer). Unfortunately I cannot find a single double shielded solution (at any price) other than sourcing for diy;

Where would I test video circuit power? What's a reasonable voltage there?

Oscillator v xtal & Freddie: is that specific to all boards or just w/Freddie? (mine's standard, though a late model);

Power supply is solid (tested/metered); 

Everything's on same circuit; 

 

Thanks for the tips! 

[_The Doctor__]

The cap mistake is only on Freddie equipped PCBs

The oscillator equipped PCBs have more pronounced jailbars and including some of the crystals section components help keep the noise off the video. It's outlined in the threads on the forums.

The are a number of video clean up threads and mods that explain the inductor to jump or bodge etc to help remove the starvation to the video section.

Blurring caps and other things also discussed in those threads.

 

[TZJB]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:50 PM, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

@TZJB @Beeblebrox did the chroma mod and the C78 + C77 cap lift yesterday. S-video looks great (and composite + luma looked nearly or as-good while waiting on a replacement for a faulty 5din to 4x RCA cable). I've not had occasion to check out the speed benefits of the cap lifts (will these be realized via emulation using an AVG/SubCart? What would be an interesting rom/software example to test?). 

Included are some images w/filenames indicated RF, monitor port: composite + luma, monitor port: S-video.

 

Without exploring the threads first, what would be the cause of these lines (see red SubCart menu images)

 

 

 

It's all looking pretty good to me.

 

You definitely do not have a FREDDIE chip to worry about and Y1 is a crystal.

 

SUBcart does support HSIO over the SIO interface but you will need an HSIO patch to the operating system such as the HiassofT Highspeed SIO patch https://www.horus.com/~hias/atari/ then everything loadable over the SIO will load at high speed.

 

If you don't want to patch the OS yourself there is one available here, and it also has a fast math pack and reversed OPTION key:-

 

 

It will involve a bit more work with the soldering iron as U5, the C061598B-01 operating system chip, needs to be replaced with a ROM containing the new code. Or maybe the SUBCart could load it? I don't actually know as it just occured to me and I haven't tried it.

 

[tmp]

4 minutes ago, TZJB said:

It will involve a bit more work with the soldering iron as U5, the C061598B-01 operating system chip, needs to be replaced with a ROM containing the new code. Or maybe the SUBCart could load it? I don't actually know as it just occured to me and I haven't tried it.

 

avg/subcart will automatically force hsio-patched option-inverted os when both sio and eci/pbi cables are present, hsio is enabled, os is set to auto and atr is being emulated

Edited April 29 by tmp

[TZJB]

2 minutes ago, tmp said:

avg/subcart will automatically force hsio-patched option-inverted os when both sio and eci/pbi cables are present, hsio is enabled, os is set to auto and atr is being emulated

 

Just to clarify, are you saying that the HSIO OS patches are built in to the AVG/SUBcart and implemented without an actual HSIO patched OS?

 

If so that's a lot easier 🙂!

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

39 minutes ago, TZJB said:

 

It's all looking pretty good to me.

 

You definitely do not have a FREDDIE chip to worry about and Y1 is a crystal.

 

SUBcart does support HSIO over the SIO interface but you will need an HSIO patch to the operating system such as the HiassofT Highspeed SIO patch https://www.horus.com/~hias/atari/ then everything loadable over the SIO will load at high speed.

 

If you don't want to patch the OS yourself there is one available here, and it also has a fast math pack and reversed OPTION key:-

 

 

It will involve a bit more work with the soldering iron as U5, the C061598B-01 operating system chip, needs to be replaced with a ROM containing the new code. Or maybe the SUBCart could load it? I don't actually know as it just occured to me and I haven't tried it.

 

@TZJB some of the other video-related mods mentioned like lifting C56 (absent on my board) &/or C54 - it does look like I have jailbars, does this help? 

Color has been fiddly to dial in (using the pot through the bottom hole). What should I expect afa color? Any tricks and/or other means of dialing it in? (I've swiped through the pot range to de-oxidize btw). Neither of these are terrible, only sometimes distracting. 

 

These lead me to another question - as I (now) start to ponder possibly maximizing image quality (and ease of doing so) w/the more permanent(-ish) mods like Sophia/UAV: as I ponder these, what considerations should I have in mind afa the minor video-related mods like these that ppl do? From the perspective of minimizing future work to facilitate a future bigger mod like Sophia (etc.) - are some of these (smaller) mods going to have to be undone for Sophia (etc) to work properly? I obviously need to read a lot more about those add ons...apologies. 

 

As for the SIO speed upgrade- I've just started to dig into the software side, so I'm not even sure what uses that (until now I've just used the default sampler from De Re AVGCART site and another one referenced there - these aren't organized usefully for me to know what software uses which peripheral emulation etc., so I'll start going through those/organizing (lots of PAL and others that won't run on my NTSC). I'll prob also look for other repository hosts to see what's out there. 

 

Any advice/tips/tricks of course very welcome, and thanks

[Beeblebrox]

Lifting c54 only helps when using an cable svideo on a modern lcd. It's needed for av composite. If using svideo then it's worth lifting it, and also getting a double shielded svideo cable. 

 

Sophia2 is a great route. Amazing output and loads of configurable outputs, including resolutions.

 

If gtia is socketed then it's dead easy. Sophia2 is a replacement for the gtia. Then, if you get a longer ribbon cable for it, you can 3d print a dvi mount (a couple are available including a PBI port mount which benefits from a longer ribbon cable) or hook up to, save, a savo board. It's all here on AA. 

 

Sophia2 just needs a separate audio out of you are hooking up to DVI. Again, you can wire an RCA audio jack. 

 

A few examples of 3d printed dvi mounts. 

 

https://www.printables.com/model/370182-sophia-pbi-port-dvi-mount-for-atari-800xl/remixes

 

 

 

https://www.printables.com/model/827760-atari-xl-sophia-2-stereo-enclosure

 

Edited April 29 by Beeblebrox

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

2 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

Lifting c54 only helps when using an cable svideo on a modern lcd. It's needed for av composite. If using svideo then it's worth lifting it, and also getting a double shielded svideo cable. 

 

Sophia2 is a great route. Amazing output and loads of configurable outputs, including resolutions.

 

If gtia is socketed then it's dead easy. Sophia2 is a replacement for the gtia. Then, if you get a longer ribbon cable for it, you can 3d print a dvi mount (a couple are available including a PBI port mount which benefits from a longer ribbon cable) or hook up to, save, a savo board. It's all here on AA. 

 

Sophia2 just needs a separate audio out of you are hooking up to DVI. Again, you can wire an RCA audio jack. 

 

A few examples of 3d printed dvi mounts. 

 

https://www.printables.com/model/370182-sophia-pbi-port-dvi-mount-for-atari-800xl/remixes

 

 

 

https://www.printables.com/model/827760-atari-xl-sophia-2-stereo-enclosure

 

I'll only be using S-video or digital so I've removed C54- I don't see an obvious difference, but I've mostly been using this on a plasma (no LCD's other than the kid's monitor - I'll maybe try it out on that this week). 

 

I can't find any readymade double shielded cables, I'll prob make one when I get around to sourcing cable. 

 

I will eventually have 2 of these 800XL NTSC's, thought I'd keep one generally stock and go nuts with the other - I think it might be this one. I've been leaning toward Sophia2 on this one for the digital out - those are pretty nice enclosures. I'd want to leave the PBI open (for the SubCart cables), so if I added an SAVO (for audio, was that the suggestion?) it would take the RF space (I am happy to remove the RF box to accommodate any of these)... any other way to get Sophia2/DVI out other than modding the case? I'd prefer not to mod either case (I'll try and be open to it with this one if either but still much prefer avoid that). 

 

 

[Beeblebrox]

It's only noticeable on lcd afaik, so perhaps not plasma screens.

 

One of the savo boards will allow you to avoid moddling the case. Have a look at the thread on savo. 

 

Also, this would allow you to avoid modding the case too: