800XL startup RAM test fail options

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:02 AM, TZJB said:

Additionally I have taken to installing a 5.6V 1W zener diode directly across J7 to provide some sort of cheap over-voltage protection.

@TZJB I might add the zener you mentioned over the weekend: are you just connecting across the two most exposed/innermost pins (6 & 7) above the joints? Cathode/stripe side pointing at pin 6(+5V)?

Have you had any issues/concerns w/that since you've done them? Thanks

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

I'm trying to figure out my options for external keyboard support (this Stackpole "type 4" iirc, is punishing), and have found just a couple or few solutions, such as TK/TKII that bring PS/2 - and they (sometimes? always?) seem to rely on another mod, and/or are no longer made? Can someone maybe explain those? There doesn't seem to be *a* thread of what's currently or ever available.

Ideal would be USB-based wireless KB (bluetooth implementation seems unlikely re: the threads), and if not then just USB, and finally, PS/2 if that's the only option. I have multiple keyboards that cover the common protocols and connectors. Wireless would also allow me to use the Atari at my desk (w/a bit of reorg). I'm loathe to try the keyboard lotto via ebay (I don't need another machine, and of course don't wanna pay those prices just to harvest the KB). Any help or direction much appreciated.

 

PS: I did find that $300 new KB replacement project, but it's not for me (not the price nor the choice in switches etc).

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

I'm trying to figure out my options for external keyboard support (this Stackpole "type 4" iirc, is punishing), and have found just a couple or few solutions, such as TK/TKII that bring PS/2 - and they (sometimes? always?) seem to rely on another mod, and/or are no longer made? Can someone maybe explain those? There doesn't seem to be *a* thread of what's currently or ever available.

Ideal would be USB-based wireless KB (bluetooth implementation seems unlikely re: the threads), and if not then just USB, and finally, PS/2 if that's the only option. I have multiple keyboards that cover the common protocols and connectors. Wireless would also allow me to use the Atari at my desk (w/a bit of reorg). I'm loathe to try the keyboard lotto via ebay (I don't need another machine, and of course don't wanna pay those prices just to harvest the KB). Any help or direction much appreciated.

 

PS: I did find that $300 new KB replacement project, but it's not for me (not the price nor the choice in switches etc).

There is the AKI USB keyboard adapter, which has been available for a number of years, although frustratingly a small number of symbol keys aren't mapped. 

 

See here:https://retrolemon.co.uk/atari-8bit-upgrades/130-aki-usb-keyboard-interface.html

 

I have one. Used a wireless dongle with it and a wireless keyboard. Some issues with ntsc with pokeymax if I recall. Google flashjazzcat and have a look at his vids as a recent one goes into it. 

 

AKI plugs into the pokey socket and the latter piggy backs it Iirc. Then a few wires internally to hook up to console keys. 

Edited May 22 by Beeblebrox

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

19 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

There is the AKI USB keyboard adapter, which has been available for a number of years, although frustratingly a small number of symbol keys aren't mapped. 

 

See here:https://retrolemon.co.uk/atari-8bit-upgrades/130-aki-usb-keyboard-interface.html

 

I have one. Used a wireless dongle with it and a wireless keyboard. Some issues with ntsc with pokeymax if I recall. Google flashjazzcat and have a look at his vids as a recent one goes into it. 

 

AKI plugs into the pokey socket and the latter piggy backs it Iirc. Then a few wires internally to hook up to console keys. 

Watching the Feb 25th FJC vid ("..upgrades part 2:.."): he's got... a lot going on w/that machine..the Break key currently sends multiple IRQ's/lines and he mentions some (unspecified?) keys that seem to be omitted through the latest FW/SW. I'm not too offput by that, prob willing to risk it short term to have a mostly working wireless KB.

 

Did you run your connector out an existing hole or make one in the chassis? In FJC's client's board seems to have the USB connector coming out the RF channel switch - maybe a least offensive option if there's no way to route it using existing holes (or connector adapter, which I assume is not possible).

 

FJC's latest vid on this consignment machine was I think the first Atari one I'd watched (just after getting this machine) and this one is as educational and hilarious as that was (the control key part was hilarious). Always leads (requires..) me having to research 4+ new add-ons for these Ataris, just to get the gist of what's going on. I'm mildly surprised there's no rubric that breaks down *all* the most popular mods: their crossover, interference/compatibility, etc. (I've seen threads/pages on mods w/related functionality but not one that covers the gamut - maybe I've missed it but it would seem obviously very helpful to new folks).

 

I consider a couple of other add-ons (U1MB for one) and wonder if there are any that interfere or make this redundant.

[Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

I'm mildly surprised there's no rubric that breaks down *all* the most popular mods: their crossover, interference/compatibility, etc. (I've seen threads/pages on mods w/related functionality but not one that covers the gamut - maybe I've missed it but it would seem obviously very helpful to new folks).

 

I consider a couple of other add-ons (U1MB for one) and wonder if there are any that interfere or make this redundant.

Whilst I agree in many aspects of Atari hardware/software and firmware it would be great to have comprehensive and regularly updated threads which compile and cross reference all of these things, etc etc, (and indeed for some things we do), the main thing here to consider is simply the following. This is a public forum for Atari enthusiasts....not a public service.  (I am not meaning to be rude here or condescending either).  

 

Many people share there expertise, etc, here on AA, but simply don't have the time or inclination to do/maintain such things.

 

To have really comprehensive threads covering what you mention  - even as a general overview for core hardwares and upgrades for example - given the many different original A8 models, new modern A8 variants, all modern hardware upgrades, all compatiblity issues/how they intereact with each other (or don't), plus firmware considerations, etc, and all this over decades - is just too tricky to maintain imho. 

 

A lot of people do provide up to date info, and the newbie pinned thread is a good example. As are dedicated threads about particular devices, (for example Fujinet). Those like the latter are threads just dedicated to single devices. 

 

A lot of the time the threads are here in one form or another, and most things about most established upgrades have been discussed many times. It's just the nature of these forums that it's sometimes not easy to find. Ce la vie.  For me the very nature of retro computing means that - inevitably, there is a lot of reading, and learning you need to do. It can be a steep learning curve.

 

For U1MB there are/have been many discussions on AA. And the creator and maintainer of among other firmwares, the U1MB firmware, (Jon aka Flashjazzcat), has his own website page on U1MB, discord channel, and dedicated threads (like this one) about the U1MB firmware, etc etc. 

 

Anyways, it can be frustrating but also most forum members (myself included) will always try to help where we can.

 

I've learnt so much from everyone over the last few years just being on here, reading, posting, tinkering and asking questions. The collective knowledge, expertise and at times genius of some of the hardware, software/firmware creators, coders and also game coders on the Atari 8-bit scene is mindblowing!

 

Agian, not meaning to lecture or anything  

 

Edited May 23 by Beeblebrox

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

35 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

Whilst I agree in many aspects of Atari hardware/software and firmware it would be great to have comprehensive and regularly updated threads which compile and cross reference all of these things, etc etc, (and indeed for some things we do), the main thing here to consider is simply the following. This is a public forum for Atari enthusiasts....not a public service.  (I am not meaning to be rude here or condescending either).  

 

Many people share there expertise, etc, here on AA, but simply don't have the time or inclination to do/maintain such things.

 

To have really comprehensive threads covering what you mention  - even as a general overview for core hardwares and upgrades for example - given the many different original A8 models, new modern A8 variants, all modern hardware upgrades, all compatiblity issues/how they intereact with each other (or don't), plus firmware considerations, etc, and all this over decades - is just too tricky to maintain imho. 

 

A lot of people do provide up to date info, and the newbie pinned thread is a good example. As are dedicated threads about particular devices, (for example Fujinet). Those like the latter are threads just dedicated to single devices. 

 

A lot of the time the threads are here in one form or another, and most things about most established upgrades have been discussed many times. It's just the nature of these forums that it's sometimes not easy to find. Ce la vie.  For me the very nature of retro computing means that - inevitably, there is a lot of reading, and learning you need to do. It can be a steep learning curve.

 

For U1MB there are/have been many discussions on AA. And the creator and maintainer of among other firmwares, the U1MB firmware, (Jon aka Flashjazzcat), has his own website page on U1MB, discord channel, and dedicated threads (like this one) about the U1MB firmware, etc etc. 

 

Anyways, it can be frustrating but also most forum members (myself included) will always try to help where we can.

 

I've learnt so much from everyone over the last few years just being on here, reading, posting, tinkering and asking questions. The collective knowledge, expertise and at times genius of some of the hardware, software/firmware coders and game coders on the Atari 8-bit scene is mindblowing!

 

Agian, not meaning to lecture or anything  

 

I think you might have thought I meant/wrote something else - I certainly didn't imply anything like what you replied about? It was a simple observation (and I really don't think a strange one). It sounds like you're talking to someone else, someone who needs reminding of how a forum work? Idk. Anyway, again thanks for your help. 

 

 

[Beeblebrox]

5 hours ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

I think you might have thought I meant/wrote something else - I certainly didn't imply anything like what you replied about? It was a simple observation (and I really don't think a strange one). It sounds like you're talking to someone else, someone who needs reminding of how a forum work? Idk. Anyway, again thanks for your help. 

 

 

No worries then.

[TZJB]

On 5/22/2024 at 9:56 PM, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

@TZJB I might add the zener you mentioned over the weekend: are you just connecting across the two most exposed/innermost pins (6 & 7) above the joints? Cathode/stripe side pointing at pin 6(+5V)?

Have you had any issues/concerns w/that since you've done them? Thanks

 

A 5W 1N5339B 5V6 zener diode is a simple device. When soldered straight across the incoming supply on J7 pins 6 & 7, (cathode to +5V) it does not conduct at voltages below 5.6V, so is invisible to the supply voltage of 5-5.3V from a standard Atari PSU. If the voltage increases beyond 5.6V the zener diode should limit the voltage to 5.6V and blow the supply fuse before any damage is done. It has a surge rating of 180W/13A so should take the heat away from the onboard components as it were.

 

Modern equivalent 5V power supplies are said to be over-voltage and short circuit proof, however the zener diode will also help protect against reverse polarity.

 

I have not tried the over-volt test so operation is theoretical. However I did solder the zener the wrong way round once and the modern power supply I was using shut down without damage so that part worked.

 

There are no downsides or after-effects to fitting one. Incidentally I have used 1mm rubber insulation sleeving as it does not easily melt when fitting or during stress. However the sleeving is made by RS and is easily as old as the Atari...

                                  

Here is one I prepared earlier in a 256KB upgraded 800XL:-

 

 

[+kheller2]

would this work if someone plugged in a C64 supply?

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

2 hours ago, TZJB said:

 

A 5W 1N5339B 5V6 zener diode is a simple device. When soldered straight across the incoming supply on J7 pins 6 & 7, (cathode to +5V) it does not conduct at voltages below 5.6V, so is invisible to the supply voltage of 5-5.3V from a standard Atari PSU. If the voltage increases beyond 5.6V the zener diode should limit the voltage to 5.6V and blow the supply fuse before any damage is done. It has a surge rating of 180W/13A so should take the heat away from the onboard components as it were.

 

Modern equivalent 5V power supplies are said to be over-voltage and short circuit proof, however the zener diode will also help protect against reverse polarity.

 

I have not tried the over-volt test so operation is theoretical. However I did solder the zener the wrong way round once and the modern power supply I was using shut down without damage so that part worked.

 

There are no downsides or after-effects to fitting one. Incidentally I have used 1mm rubber insulation sleeving as it does not easily melt when fitting or during stress. However the sleeving is made by RS and is easily as old as the Atari...

                                  

Here is one I prepared earlier in a 256KB upgraded 800XL:-

 

 

Thanks for the pic - I like how you brought it up away from the board, I think I'll follow that. I think all I have (new) is a 1W (1N4734A). I have some heat shrink but I'll see if I have any silicone tube/sheath.

This reminds me I need to find a second PS for another machine that's missing it (I'll check the threads and see what people are recommending).

Thanks once again for the assistance!

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

46 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

would this work if someone plugged in a C64 supply?

A C64 into an 800XL? Or a zener across pin 6/7 on an C64?

Either is a no bc C64 has dual voltage and different pinout, correct?

[TZJB]

21 minutes ago, kheller2 said:

would this work if someone plugged in a C64 supply?

 

I think it probably would work as intended to protect the Atari. It would blow the 9VAC fuse. Here is the diagram for a C64 PSU:-

 

 

It has the same plug as an Atari-8 bit computer.

 

The 5V fuse would instantly blow as J7 pin 2&5 are both tied to GND in the Atari, together with pins 3&7.

 

The 9V AC supply fed across J7 6&7 should fail as the 2A fuse should blow as soon as the zener diode becomes forward biased when 5.6V is exceeded and the forward current exceeds the breaking current of the fuse, normally 4-5A or so. The only caveat being that the reverse voltage of 0.7V would be applied to the Atari for an instant, but with all of the filter inductors and capacitors within the Atari itself I don't think damage would occur. Has anyone tried it? I am not brave enough.

 

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

2 hours ago, TZJB said:

 

I think it probably would work as intended to protect the Atari. It would blow the 9VAC fuse. Here is the diagram for a C64 PSU:-

 

 

It has the same plug as an Atari-8 bit computer.

 

The 5V fuse would instantly blow as J7 pin 2&5 are both tied to GND in the Atari, together with pins 3&7.

 

The 9V AC supply fed across J7 6&7 should fail as the 2A fuse should blow as soon as the zener diode becomes forward biased when 5.6V is exceeded and the forward current exceeds the breaking current of the fuse, normally 4-5A or so. The only caveat being that the reverse voltage of 0.7V would be applied to the Atari for an instant, but with all of the filter inductors and capacitors within the Atari itself I don't think damage would occur. Has anyone tried it? I am not brave enough.

 

And the pinout:  https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Power_Supply_Connector

 

[+kheller2]

Correct.  I was wondering if this would protect XL/XEs from someone plugging the wrong power supply into the computer.

 

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

On 5/22/2024 at 5:43 PM, Beeblebrox said:

There is the AKI USB keyboard adapter, which has been available for a number of years, although frustratingly a small number of symbol keys aren't mapped. 

 

See here:https://retrolemon.co.uk/atari-8bit-upgrades/130-aki-usb-keyboard-interface.html

 

I have one. Used a wireless dongle with it and a wireless keyboard. Some issues with ntsc with pokeymax if I recall. Google flashjazzcat and have a look at his vids as a recent one goes into it. 

 

AKI plugs into the pokey socket and the latter piggy backs it Iirc. Then a few wires internally to hook up to console keys. 

AKI USB version purchased and should be dispatched soon. I'll add the zener when installing this, and while there I thought I'd bring the USB connector up to the RF box area: where did you cut the case for yours? FJK seemed to have added a USB port (up at the RF box) via the mainboard (it was hard to tell). I'm happy to just extend the AKI USB connector wires up to the RF area, but if you have any suggestions or considerations, would appreciate it. 

[Beeblebrox]

15 hours ago, WOPRpwJOSHUA said:

AKI USB version purchased and should be dispatched soon. I'll add the zener when installing this, and while there I thought I'd bring the USB connector up to the RF box area: where did you cut the case for yours? FJK seemed to have added a USB port (up at the RF box) via the mainboard (it was hard to tell). I'm happy to just extend the AKI USB connector wires up to the RF area, but if you have any suggestions or considerations, would appreciate it. 

I'd had AKI in both an XE and also 600xl. I sold them a while back, but with one (xl) I just had the usb port hanging out the back via the pbi slot. Another (XE)  I had cut a slot near the SIO port between SIO and PBI Iirc. 

 

If you plan to have a wireless dongle, then just keep it all internally, (and just make sure it's insulated inside and taped in place so it doesn't move around and short anything. Wrap it with electricians tape.)

Edited May 29 by Beeblebrox

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

11 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

I'd had AKI in both an XE and also 600xl. I sold them a while back, but with one (xl) I just had the usb port hanging out the back via the pbi slot. Another (XE)  I had cut a slot near the SIO port between SIO and PBI Iirc. 

 

If you plan to have a wireless dongle, then just keep it all internally, (and just make sure it's insulated inside and taped in place so it doesn't move around and short anything. Wrap it with electricians tape.)

Got it, good idea leaving it inside, though I'll probably want to be able to change the keyboard (wireless usb dongle) without having to remove the case, I'll give it a think. Thanks

[WOPRpwJOSHUA]

On 5/29/2024 at 1:17 AM, Beeblebrox said:

I'd had AKI in both an XE and also 600xl. I sold them a while back, but with one (xl) I just had the usb port hanging out the back via the pbi slot. Another (XE)  I had cut a slot near the SIO port between SIO and PBI Iirc. 

 

If you plan to have a wireless dongle, then just keep it all internally, (and just make sure it's insulated inside and taped in place so it doesn't move around and short anything. Wrap it with electricians tape.)

Added the AKI and the Zener this evening. Took your suggestion to leave the USB + wireless dongle inside and it worked out great. Thanks again!: