How long until the FPGA fad runs out?

[JPF997]

Everywhere you go to discuss retro games these days you'll always find that one guy in the comments that swears up and down that FPGA is the future of retro gaming and that any retro/mini system that doesn't make use of this method of emulation  isn't worth owning, case in point Pat and Ian from the CU podcast have been shit talking the latest Atari mini consoles the 2600+ and the 400 mini for months now all because they cost over a 100 bucks and apparently it's inexcusable that a retro mini console in current year 2024 could  cost that amount without using FPGA, if it doesn't have FPGA built in it's automatically a rip off and nothing special ( aka atgames flashback tier garbage ). There was also the Polymega controversy a few years back when Playmaji made the decision to switch from FPGA to standard emulation in order to cut costs and focus on more important things for the project to succeed, almost immediately upon hearing the news many people completely changed their stance on the Polymega and started treating it like it was some piece of crap not worth paying attention to just because of that.

So what do you guys  think, do you agree with this sentiment that FPGA should become mandatory on any retro focused device, and if so why ?

[donjn]

13 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

Everywhere you go to discuss retro games these days you'll always find that one guy in the comments that swears up and down that FPGA is the future of retro gaming and that any retro/mini system that doesn't make use of this method of emulation  isn't worth owning, case in point Pat and Ian from the CU podcast have been shit talking the latest Atari mini consoles the 2600+ and the 400 mini for months now all because they cost over a 100 bucks and apparently it's inexcusable that a retro mini console in current year 2024 could  cost that amount without using FPGA, if it doesn't have FPGA built in it's automatically a rip off and nothing special ( aka atgames flashback tier garbage ). There was also the Polymega controversy a few years back when Playmaji made the decision to switch from FPGA to standard emulation in order to cut costs and focus on more important things for the project to succeed, almost immediately upon hearing the news many people completely changed their stance on the Polymega and started treating it like it was some piece of crap not worth paying attention to just because of that.

So what do you guys  think, do you agree with this sentiment that FPGA should become mandatory on any retro focused device, and if so why ?

It wont run out and it shouldn't.

FPGA technically is not emulation.

 

I am not a fan of the price of the 400 mini because after all, it is an emulator that will actually run WORSE than an emulator on my PC which has a better processor.

Anything other than FPGA is an emulator, pure and simple, and you can get emulators for free and run them great. You are basically paying for look of it. Molded plastic to hit your nostalgia feels for $100.

Also another thing is input lag. FPGA has zero lag. All emulators have some lag, but when you introduce a weak processor AND an emulator, the lag is even worse (see C64 mini using the already laggy Vice)

 

*Please don't mention "game mode" on your PC on monitor to fight lag. Ive heard that excuse for 20 years and all my monitors and TVs were meticulously purchased and fine-tuned to avoid lag.*

Edited March 28 by donjn

[john_q_atari]

17 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

So what do you guys  think, do you agree with this sentiment that FPGA should become mandatory on any retro focused device, and if so why ?

There is nothing mandatory in the retro gaming marketplace. If someone feels they can make a profit building an FPGA device then they will. If they don't think it is worth the effort and expense then they won't. Many manufacturers have found software emulation devices to pencil out for them financially where as an FPGA device did not. If you would like an FPGA device you have two options. Build one yourself or pay someone else to design and build it for you. Just my observation and opinion of course. 

[Lost Monkey]

Today I learned that FPGA's are a fad.

 

 

[zzip]

38 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

So what do you guys  think, do you agree with this sentiment that FPGA should become mandatory on any retro focused device, and if so why ?

No.   The FPGA guys remind me of the Plasma TV guys.   They'd rant and rave in their video forums about how anyone who bought an LCD TV was an idiot when plasma was so obviously superior.   But they'd focus on a couple areas - deep blacks and maybe better viewing angles.   But they'd ignore how LCD was better in many other ways:  thinner, lightweight, easier to mount, more energy efficient,  worked well at any room light level.

 

Yeah LCD did have some issues,  but they made great strides over the years to improve viewing angles, refresh rates and contrast ratios (to give deeper blacks).   The Plasma guys would act like no improvement was ever made to LCD.   Plasma died a decade or so back, but at least the 'deep black' guys have OLED to fawn over now!

 

I've watched the emulation scene develop since the 90s and it's made amazing strides.   Lag isn't a problem for me, probably because if an emulator performs poorly, I don't use it, and I stick with emulators that perform well.    If there's lag there, I don't feel it.  I can't rule out that there isn't a tiny amount, but not enough for me to notice.    Just like I don't notice that the blacks on my LCD monitor here are really dark gray.

 

I don't think the vast majority of people buying them are going to be bothered that these retro devices are running emulators,  many probably haven't heard of FPGA nor could explain the difference between FPGA and software emulation.

 

And as for price, for just over $100 you get a $30 joystick and over two dozen games.   I don't see how that's overpriced.

[Giles N]

I’m not saying there isn’t a market for emulation-consoles if quality assurance and extras are ramped up to meet demands and ‘24++ standards.

 

I will however rate my Analogue Pocket (which built on openFPGA) with adapter set

a  clear  10/10 

 

 

[eightbit]

Usage of an FPGA is simply a better way to "emulate". It's more efficient as you are not dealing with the overhead of software emulation. But, right now it is simply most cost effective to use some very powerful ARM processor for example to drive a software emulator.

 

I don't think it is a "fad". It is just at the time of this writing not very cost effective for mainstream consumer do-dads such as these $100 mini consoles. 

 

BUT, I don't expect FPGA to be pricey forever. Once inexpensive FPGA technology exists they will be used everywhere. It's only a matter of time.

[Razzie.P]

Probably Tuesday.  Or maybe Wednesday.  Maybe later longer, I dunno...

 

It'll be sad, though, bc if that "fad" runs out, we may not have that option anymore but we'll probably still see a bunch of cheap, lower quality mini console thingies that somehow make all the games "less" when played on them, due to poor accuracy and introduced lag.

[donjn]

9 minutes ago, zzip said:

No.   The FPGA guys remind me of the Plasma TV guys.   They'd rant and rave in their video forums about how anyone who bought an LCD TV was an idiot when plasma was so obviously superior.   But they'd focus on a couple areas - deep blacks and maybe better viewing angles.   But they'd ignore how LCD was better in many other ways:  thinner, lightweight, easier to mount, more energy efficient,  worked well at any room light level.

 

Yeah LCD did have some issues,  but they made great strides over the years to improve viewing angles, refresh rates and contrast ratios (to give deeper blacks).   The Plasma guys would act like no improvement was ever made to LCD.   Plasma died a decade or so back, but at least the 'deep black' guys have OLED to fawn over now!

 

I've watched the emulation scene develop since the 90s and it's made amazing strides.   Lag isn't a problem for me, probably because if an emulator performs poorly, I don't use it, and I stick with emulators that perform well.    If there's lag there, I don't feel it.  I can't rule out that there isn't a tiny amount, but not enough for me to notice.    Just like I don't notice that the blacks on my LCD monitor here are really dark gray.

 

I don't think the vast majority of people buying them are going to be bothered that these retro devices are running emulators,  many probably haven't heard of FPGA nor could explain the difference between FPGA and software emulation.

 

And as for price, for just over $100 you get a $30 joystick and over two dozen games.   I don't see how that's overpriced.

Emulation has made great strides for me in two areas:

 

1. CRT and retro scanline filters. Some of them have gotten so good that it makes me not miss CRT monitors.

2. "Read-Ahead" which Retroarch uses.

 

Those two alone move me away from being an FPGA "snob". The issue is, the second option, run-ahead is not used by almost any emulators and its a shame. I am still shocked on this forum with so many of us have original Atari hardware and CRT monitors, yet we also love emulation, which has a pretty impressive lag difference vs FPGA or the real thing.

[Razzie.P]

1 hour ago, donjn said:

*Please don't mention "game mode" on your PC on monitor to fight lag. Ive heard that excuse for 20 years and all my monitors and TVs were meticulously purchased and fine-tuned to avoid lag.*

Yeah, that's annoying.  Plug in a Analogue console and it's like (while not perfect) playable and feels like it should.  Plug in some AT Games thing to the same tv, same settings, same input, blah blah, turn the paddle knob, go have dinner, and come back to watch the thing move (slight exaggeration) and some yay-hoo will be like "use game mode" like that's some magic fix all.

[zzip]

15 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

Plug in some AT Games thing to the same tv, same settings, same input, blah blah,

Maybe that's the problem there?   I've never used an AT Games device,  but I've never experience the kind of lag people complain about on my emulation PC.

[donjn]

7 minutes ago, zzip said:

Maybe that's the problem there?   I've never used an AT Games device,  but I've never experience the kind of lag people complain about on my emulation PC.

No one here is complaining about emulation on their PC. Emulating on your PC is great for most stuff.

My complaint is emulators that are being run on underpowered smartphone processors from 7 years ago, stuffing them into molded plastic to get your nostalgia going, and charging $100 for WORSE performance. Oh, and putting some "metal" in them to give them some weight.

 

Edited March 28 by donjn

[JPF997]

35 minutes ago, donjn said:

No one here is complaining about emulation on their PC. Emulating on your PC is great for most stuff.

My complaint is emulators that are being run on underpowered smartphone processors from 7 years ago, stuffing them into molded plastic to get your nostalgia going, and charging $100 for WORSE performance. Oh, and putting some "metal" in them to give them some weight.

 

I'm currently playing on my Super Console X4 Plus from Kinhank that has over a 120k built in games, literally any game from any console before the Dreamcast runs flawlessly on this device and I only payed 70 bucks for it on AliExpress ( it even came with two knockoff PS2 controllers which are actually pretty good), this idea that only high end computers can emulate flawlessly is an old myth that needs to die off.

[Razzie.P]

43 minutes ago, zzip said:

Maybe that's the problem there?   I've never used an AT Games device,  but I've never experience the kind of lag people complain about on my emulation PC.

Yeah, that's definitely the problem.  PC emulation is pretty sweet, but I thought (could be wrong) we were talking about the mini-console gadget things that use emulation instead of FPGA.   Some of those are alright, but I haven't played one yet that didn't feel a bit lacking in areas.  And worst cases are the ones that render great games virtually unplayable (AtGames comes to mind there)

[Giles N]

At least I hope that the FPGA-fad is to going last a long, long time into the future… 

 

Plenty of corporate ‘n commericalized brainwasher-fads out there to pick from, that are truly deserving of fading to black asap… 

Edited March 28 by Giles N

[zzip]

6 minutes ago, Razzie.P said:

Yeah, that's definitely the problem.  PC emulation is pretty sweet, but I thought (could be wrong) we were talking about the mini-console gadget things that use emulation instead of FPGA.   Some of those are alright, but I haven't played one yet that didn't feel a bit lacking in areas.  And worst cases are the ones that render great games virtually unplayable (AtGames comes to mind there)

50 minutes ago, donjn said:

My complaint is emulators that are being run on underpowered smartphone processors from 7 years ago, stuffing them into molded plastic to get your nostalgia going, and charging $100 for WORSE performance. Oh, and putting some "metal" in them to give them some weight.

 

ok, well then the issue isn't emulation, it's selling underpowered devices.   But people play these then start spreading the message that emulation is always crap.     

 

ARM processors get faster over time, so this should become less and less of an issue.

[JPF997]

7 minutes ago, zzip said:

 

ok, well then the issue isn't emulation, it's selling underpowered devices.   But people play these then start spreading the message that emulation is always crap.     

 

ARM processors get faster over time, so this should become less and less of an issue.

We're getting to the point that even low powered emulation devices can run anything up to the Dreamcast flawlessly, just like I explained in my other post just before this one, the need for an FPGA for high quality emulation is greatly diminishing with each and every passing year, another reason why I think this fad ( by fad I  really mean obsession that certain groups within the retro gaming community have with these things  ) is going to die off soon .

[donjn]

45 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

I'm currently playing on my Super Console X4 Plus from Kinhank that has over a 120k built in games, literally any game from any console before the Dreamcast runs flawlessly on this device and I only payed 70 bucks for it on AliExpress ( it even came with two knockoff PS2 controllers which are actually pretty good), this idea that only high end computers can emulate flawlessly is an old myth that needs to die off.

Congrats, one example. I guess the myth is over!!!!

[donjn]

Finally, you may not notice input lag the way others

27 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

We're getting to the point that even low powered emulation devices can run anything up to the Dreamcast flawlessly, just like I explained in my other post just before this one, the need for an FPGA for high quality emulation is greatly diminishing with each and every passing year, another reason why I think this fad ( by fad I  really mean obsession that certain groups within the retro gaming community have with these things  ) is going to die off soon .

So wait, you started this thread asking "How long until this fad dies out"? then present evidence *cough, cough* showing one cheap Chinese console doing emulation very well (showing no evidence of testing lag, delay or accuracy, or mentioning which systems were tested) and then declare why you think this "fad" is going to end soon, answering your own question, and ignoring why people disagree with you.

 

Umm..ookkaayyy...

 

You also keep pushing this narrative that people who prefer FPGA are "snobs" or are arrogant or obsessed? Couldnt I argue the same for you the other way, especially considering your original post comes off a bit...angry?

 

Finally, you may not notice input lag the way others do. Ever think of that? Saying something is "fine" for you might not be for other people.

Edited March 28 by donjn

[donjn]

41 minutes ago, zzip said:

 

ok, well then the issue isn't emulation, it's selling underpowered devices.   But people play these then start spreading the message that emulation is always crap.     

ARM processors get faster over time, so this should become less and less of an issue.

Both can be true, there are some emulators that are total crap as well, and have become so bloated over time that they produce lag that is worse than when they first came out. Vice 64 is a good example. The author said himself that it was never and still isn't being used for gaming. Yet, the C64 Mini and Maxi used it for their Minis and it is awful.

 

The Atari 2600+ hardware and emulation is good, but Stella's emulation has been great for 10+ years now. And even then, the Atari Flashback series in  my opinion has extremely poor accuracy.

 

Its all over the place, is what I am trying to say.

 

Edited March 28 by donjn

[Giles N]

FPGA, as far as I can see, provides the quality of processing things 100% or close to 100% similar to original hardware.

 

Emulation may or may not come in versions which adds more inbuilt extra features, yet it seems that emulation-software almost always have some catching up to do.

 

Even if it’s speculated that ‘in the future’ emulation will eventually become so sophisticated it will take over the worl…no, that was another software, - so efficient it won’t lag on cheap and mediocre devices, then it could also be speculated that FPGA in the future will do ‘marvels previously unthinkable in human history’ (of course not excluding taking over the world).

Edited March 28 by Giles N

[donjn]

3 minutes ago, Giles N said:

FPGA, as far as I can see, provides the quality of processing things 100% or close to 100% similar to original hardware.

 

Emulation may or may not come in versions which adds more inbuilt extra features, yet it seems that emulation-software almost always have some catching up to do.

 

Even if it’s speculated that ‘in the future’ emulation will eventually become so sophisticated it will take over the wo… no, that was another software, - so efficient it won’t lag on cheap devices, then it could also be speculated FPGA in the future will do ‘marvels previously unthinkable’

What's funny is that I think the emulation for Atari 2600+, NES, SNES, SMS, Sega Genesis and Intellivision etc are all in a very good state right now.

It's the 8-bit computers that have bad emulation, C64 and Atari 8 bit. I would actually say Amiga emulation is better.

Edited March 28 by donjn

[zzip]

15 minutes ago, JPF997 said:

I think this fad ( by fad I  really mean obsession that certain groups within the retro gaming community have with these things  )

I think it's actually a pretty small fragment of the community already. 

[Giles N]

7 minutes ago, donjn said:

What's funny is that I think the emulation for Atari 2600+, NES, SNES, SMS, Sega Genesis and Intellivision etc are all in a very good state right now.

It's the 8-bit computers that have bad emulation, C64 and Atari 8 bit. I would actually say Amiga emulation is better.

‘emulation for Atari 2600+, NES, SNES, SMS, Sega Genesis and Intellivision’ being in ‘in a very good state right now.’ is at least a good start. I’m pretty sure most here knows at least the 2600+ still have a way to go to reach 100%, then it needs the extras and then it needs to get to point where it syncs overkill running with its hardware to accomplish ‘lag = 0’, as I understand that s what FPGA offers.

 

Is there any FPGAs here to make a clear-cut comparison …?

As to competiton of performance, do we have possibilities to do side by side comparisons?

 

Which one is best as of today?

Edited March 28 by Giles N

[+remowilliams]

Why do people keep responding to these endless crap 'hot take' topic posts...